The Last King`s Man: Rereading Davos

[Blisscraft]

About Mel - Controversial character to say the least. Most posters react to her much in the same way that dogs or cats do when they confront danger: some hair raising, usually along the spine, low growling, and sharp hissing and spitting; then a fine display of claws and fangs. However, in light of this I will intrepidly go forward to note that the prophecy mentioned regarding Renly in his "green armor" defeating Stannis "beneath the Walls of Kings Landing" comes true. It's just not Renly himself, but his brother wearing his green armor. Stannis is defeated beneath the Walls of Kings Landing as she foresees. Although Mel may be morally reprehensible, in her ends justify the means policies, she is not a charlatan. She is still enough of a human being to err. This is another of Martin's playing against type. She is a seer, but her interpretation may be faulty.

Onion Smuggler Redux - First, Stannis lures Davos with the idea of service. When Davos asks Stannis about Mel and her service with: "'Serves how?'. . . dreading the answer." Certainly, with this "dread" Davos has a clue as to what Mel may be doing in addition to prophecy, but I don't think he can quite put his finger(s) on it. Davos correctly concludes that his return to smuggling at Storm's End will involve assassination, but he can't say "no." Davos chooses to serve. Davos chooses to serve in spite of his profound thought in reponse to Stannis remark "The flames don't lie." Davos thinks, "Yet they require me to make them true."

Davos recounts that during the first smuggling trip to serve Stannis, he brought life, now he brings death. The symbol of a boat bringing both life and death is fairly common. A boat, as a bringer of life, or vehicle, is seen as a "cradle" or "womb". As a vehicle of death, the most well known idea comes from Greek mythology and the ferry across the River Styx. Charon, in his ferry boat conveys the dead to the underworld. This metaphor of the boat as bringing of life or death is not lost on Martin. Davos thinks: "The last time it was life I brought to Storms End, shaped to look like onions. This time it is death, in the shape of Melisandre of Asshai."

The Shadow - Jung spent some time on this subject. It seems especially applicable in this instance that this is not merely the revelation of darkness from a light source, but a revelation of personality, the image of alter ego, the survival instinct. It's interesting the the appearance of this particular shadow with a recognizable face occurs after the "onion" conversation. The black side of the onion is part of the whole onion, just as the shadow side, or black side is a part of every human being (according to Jung) and to Davos. A rotten part is not the whole onion to him. Whereas with Mel, part rotten, all rotten.

The appearance of a shadow as a separate being or other, marks a "split". Stannis' shadow is made manifest by Mel's magic somehow. The book offers not details as to what creates this, although one can infer that some kind of intercourse between Mel and Stannis is involved. Mel becomes the "mother" to Stannis' shadow or dark side or other. Stannis' shadow does what Stannis the human being will not.

This is such a classic depiction of the Jung's idea of the shadow. We have seen the enemy and it is us.

[Mladen]

The peach is a delicate fruit. Although it has a soft, yet protective skin, it yields easily and give up its flesh with little struggle. It certainly has become a metaphor for Renly and Stannis' guilt regarding his "untimely" death at the hands of who knows who. Davos detects Stannis' guilt easily and he feels it in his "phantom" fingertips. Perhaps Davos feels it there, in those fingertips because, there is something unreal about Stannis' guilt. This is perhaps best expressed by Stannis when he insists upon "taking" Storm's End because: "it will be said that I was defeated here. . . Men do not love me as they loved my brothers. They follow me because they fear me . . . and defeat is death to fear." (my emphasis).

Blisscraft, 2 great posts... Thank you very much. You enrich this thread with your insightful posts...

I like Martin's transformation of symbolism the same peach has. In Catelyn's POV, it was the sign of knights of summer, kingdom ready to be taken, delicious fruit you enjoy. Almost like it was symbol of Renly`s vanity and ''queer notion'' of being a King. And here peach represents loss, guilt and anger. All these feelings are cumulating in Stannis and they torment him... Here Martin shows how powerful tool POV is, and how the same thing is truly seen differently by different people.

The appearance of a shadow as a separate being or other, marks a "split". Stannis' shadow is made manifest by Mel's magic somehow. The book offers not details as to what creates this, although one can infer that some kind of intercourse between Mel and Stannis is involved. Mel becomes the "mother" to Stannis' shadow or dark side or other. Stannis' shadow does what Stannis the human being will not.

And not just her magic, than also Stannis' blind ambition, that inflexibility and uncompromising attitude. We can guess how the shadow was created, but Davos had thought of sex before Melisandre gave birth to shadowbaby, so scientifically, that baby is both manifest of Melisandre and Stannis. I wouldn`t just say that Melisandre is mother of Stannis' darkness, rather that she is catalyst that makes that side shape into something physical. I like the idea of split, and genetically baby is half Stannis... Basically, this wasn`t just Melisandre. Here was working another force - the power of Stannis' choice. He chose the Red hawk, and he has to live with it.

[Fire Eater]

According to Tyrion after SE falls, Stannis burns the godswood. Stannis in this aspect parallels Ar-Pharazôn, the king who ruled from an island, who cut down the sacred white tree, Nimloth, at the instigation of Sauron and used to light the first flames in the fire of the new religion that worshiped Melkor, the Dark Lord. The new religion viewed death as evil. People were burned in the fires as sacrifices to Melkor, including members of the Faithful, who stayed loyal to the old faith and believed death was not an evil. The people who took up the worship of Melkor became known as "King's Men".

GRRM inverts it; at Mel's instigation, Stannis, a king who rules from the island of Dragonstone, gave the huge white weirwood to the fire of the new god, R'hllor, the Lord of Light. The "King's Men" are those who are faithful to the old Faith of the Seven while those who worship R'hllor with Stannis as the "Queen's Men". People, including men who stayed loyal to the Seven, are burned as sacrifices. The Red Faith, as Mel reveals, sees death as evil.

[The guy from the Vale]

A few observations.

First of all, I find it very interesting that Davos is our window into Stannis' faction in this conflict. He certainly gives a very positive spin towards the last Baratheon standing. That said, whenever there are other POV characters around Stannis, we see the scene from their perspective, not Davos'. I sometimes wonder why that is.

Between Davos I and II, we see Stannis in a Catelyn chapter. I think it is quite important to our discussion here, since it is where kinslaying, the peach and the shadow are introduced as part of Stannis (and hence, Davos') narrative. I'll have a short detour about the two Catelyn chapters that cover the conflict between Renly and Stannis, and note where they have some connection to Stannis and Davos.

ACoK, Catelyn II

Catelyn wished they would all go away. They were good men, loyal, yet she was tired of them all. It was her children she yearned after.

Catelyn and Davos are foils for each other, here. Both value loyalty, and both do all that they do for their families, ultimately. But while the separation from her children depresses Catelyn and sours her stance towards loyalty, Davos doesn't separate the two issues. For him, loyalty and family are the same thing. Soon enough, Davos will lose some of his children, too. And while his reaction is not quite as severe as Catelyn's, his loyalty will also be shaken by these events.

Also interesting to note that one of Catelyn's companions is Ser Wendel Manderly. The connection between Davos and the Manderlys will be quite interesting to look at later on.

Her fingers seemed more clumsy than usual as she fumbled on her clothes. She supposed she ought to be grateful that she had any use of her hands at all.

Again, Catelyn and Davos are presented as foils here. Both have mutilated hands, a fate they share with Jaime and Jon... curiously enough, Davos, Catelyn and Jon have all connections to R'hllorism of one way or another. Beric also cut his hand to set his sword on fire. Will Jaime be involved in the magical storyline too?

"My Lady, I swear to you, I will see that the Lannisters answer for your husband's murder;" the king declared. "When I take King's Landing, I'll send you Cersei's head."

And will that bring my Ned back to me? she thought. "It will be enough to know that justice has been done, my lord."

"Your Grace," Brienne the Blue corrected sharply. "And you should kneel when you approach the king."

"The distance between a lord and a grace is a small one, my lady," Catelyn said. "Lord Renly wears a crown, as does my son. If you wish, we may stand here in the mud and debate what honors and titles are rightly due to each, but it strikes me that we have more pressing matters to consider.

Some of Renly's lords bristled at that, but the king only laughed.

Two observations here. First of all, the issue of justice comes up here again, and it would be interesting to see what kind of justice Stannis has in mind for the sham of Ned's death. It's also interesting that both Renly and Stannis tend to demonstrate their versions of justice very openly. It's also interesting to see that Renly does not insist on the formalities of being king, and in doing so, opens up a diplomatic path (that ultimately goes nowhere...) I can't imagine Stannis' reaction to such a slight as Catelyn's... but I fear it wouldn't be all that good.

The food at Renly's banquet is also noteworthy:

[...]They began with pears poached in wine, and went on to tiny savory fish rolled in salt and cooked crisp, and capons stuffed with onions and mushrooms. There were great loaves of brown bread, mounds of turnips and sweetcorn and pease, immense hams and roast geese and trenchers dripping full of venison stewed with beer and barley. For the sweet, Lord Caswell's servants brought down trays of pastries from his castle kitchens, cream swans and spun-sugar unicorns, lemon cakes in the shape of roses, spiced honey biscuits and blackberry tarts, apple crisps and wheels of buttery cheese.

Apart from the mouthwatering I always get when reading that line, there's a nice bit to consider here. Onions and turnips is what Davos brought Stannis at Storm's end, and both appear among the food. We have already connected the color brown to Davos, and indeed the bread is also brown here. The immense hams, even if only by accident, connect to show Renly taunting Stannis with the "is he a ham?" line. Ham is also made of Pig, and boar has been connected to changes in power... soon enough all those at this banquet will have to find new loyalties. Spun-sugar unicorns also appear on the banquet, and Davos most probably will sail to the island of the unicorns, Skagos, in TWoW. Lemon cakes probably symbolise naiveté, which squares with Catelyn's observation that these are the knights of summer. Lastly, the wheels of buttery cheese remind me of another banquet of a young gay king who never reigned, also at the evening after a tourney: Of Lord Butterwell's tourney in The Mystery Knight and Daemon II Blackfyre...

The height of folly was reached when a plump fool came capering out in gold-painted tin with a cloth lion's head, and chased a dwarf around the tables, whacking him over the head with a bladder. Finally King Renly demanded to know why he has beating his brother. "Why, your Grace, I'm the Kinslayer," the fool said.

"It's Kingslayer, fool of a fool," Renly said, and the hall rang with laughter.

Apart from foreshadowing Stannis' kinslaying Renly (and with what we see in Davos' chapter in terms of guilt, it seems clear that indeed, Stannis is a kinslayer. An unwilling or unwitting, perhaps, but that didn't matter in the case of Oedipus either...

I also wonder if that foreshadows Jaime killing Tyrion, or perhaps even Jaime already being a kinslayer (if we buy into the semi-crackpot theories on Jaime's and Cersei's parentage, anyway.)

But let's come to the point that really matters on Stannis' and Davos storyline soon enough:

"And never forget my brother Stannis, who holds Dragonstone and commands the lords of the narrow sea."

"It would seem that you are the one who has forgotten Stannis," Catelyn said, more sharply than she'd intended.

"His claim, you mean?" Renly laughed. "Let us be blunt, my lady. Stannis would make an appalling king. Nor is he like to become one. Men respect Stannis, even fear him, but precious few have ever loved him."

"He is still your elder brother. If either of you can be said to have a right to the Iron Throne. it must be Lord Stannis."

Renly shrugged. "Tell me, what right did my brother Robert ever have to the Iron Throne?" He did not wait for an answer. "Oh, there was talk of the blood ties between Baratheon and Targaryen, of weddings a hundred years past, of second sons and elder daughters. No one but the maesters care about any of it. Robert won the throne with his warhammer."

Few men love Stannis... but Davos does.

Also, it seems many posters have adopted Renly's position here, but is it really right? Coupled with Barristan not appearing on Renly's side (or Stannis' either, as we will see) when looking for the rightful king, the argument for the Targaryen perspective can still be made...

I'll leave it at that for now, and will come back with an analysis of Catelyn III in a few days.

[Lummel]

...Also, it seems many posters have adopted Renly's position here, but is it really right? Coupled with Barristan not appearing on Renly's side (or Stannis' either, as we will see) when looking for the rightful king, the argument for the Targaryen perspective can still be made...

How do you mean right? Something I mention in the Tyrion reread was that justice, in a sense that we would recognise it, doesn't really exist in Westeros. Everything is political.

Before we leap entirely off at a tangent my view is that this one of those devices that GRRM has for drawing readers into the moral and political dynamic of the story, the followers of the Blackfyres were convinced of the rightness of their claim, but we might reasonably suspect that the crown won't be awarded to the most just claimant (however defined) but this will be a question decided by blood and iron.

The question of justice links back to the issue of Melisandre and Davos. The binary good or evil view of the world versus the shaded world of the smuggler. Stannis has a black/white very legalistic view (he is also brooding back on the past) Renly has a Realpolitik view (which is also forward looking in the sense of 'if I can build these alliances I can be King) the Lannisters rely on their mummery and institutional charisma . Just as with morality the political/legal views might as well exist in different universes and serve to underline how unbridgeable the differences between the brothers are.

Davos of course has no choice. It is clear from Davos I how completely dependent he is on Stannis and by extension on the success of Stannis' cause. It is for other people to be able to swap sides from one moon to the next. The disadvantage of Davos' social promotion is that he's lost much of his manoeuvrability and has to tack very close to the wind ;)

[The guy from the Vale]

What I mean is not that there won't be a fight for the throne, quite the opposite. What I mean is the common assumptin on the board that claims just don't matter at all, and that conquest eradicates all prior claims.

As for claims not mattering, if that was the case, Westeros would be in a state of constant anarchy. Kings would be popping up like mushrooms. Now, during the course of the books, that's what happens - but it's also evident that the society is in decay, and this decay is intricately linked to the lack of stable rule.

We also see that claims still do matter, and that is in the nobility's interest that they do (because all of them do have strong claims to their ancestral lands, yadda yadda). Renly fails to get the support of Dorne and the North/Riverlands because he has no claim, even though he assumes they will flock to him. But Catelyn directly poitns out to him that it's his obvious lack of a claim that hurts him here - and again, most nobles can't easily support that since otherwise they would have to fear a feud between their own children after their death. This happens sometimes, of course, but it is not supposed to be the norm.

As for right of conquest, I think it's an inherently flawed concept, since it promotes aforementioned anarchy. You always conquer such a kingdom from someone, and you either kill all these someones (making you a bloody tyrant), or they have a legitimate (and, in my opinion, superior) claim. The conqueror's choice is thus between being a monster and being a blip on the timeline. I can't support a monster, and I can't support a thief either.

However, if you conquer these lands, create your own institutions (something the Baratheons utterly failed at so far) so that your actions aren't so much usurpation as creation, and manage to rule peacefully for two generations or more, you start accumulating legitimacy. Basically, legitimacy has to be earned, and the one family in these books who we see having earned that legitimacy, and hence the loyalty of their bannermen, are the Starks.

As an example, I think Robert Baratheon was an ultimately illegitimate ruler, even if his descendants might have turned into legitimate rulers in time (Cersei and the Wot5K smashed that possibility though...) Similarly, Aegon I and Maegor were not really legitimate rulers of Westeros either - the Targaryen rule didn't become legitimate until Jaehaerys I's reign.

[Blisscraft]

A few observations.

The food at Renly's banquet is also noteworthy:

Apart from the mouthwatering I always get when reading that line, there's a nice bit to consider here. Onions and turnips is what Davos brought Stannis at Storm's end, and both appear among the food. We have already connected the color brown to Davos, and indeed the bread is also brown here. The immense hams, even if only by accident, connect to show Renly taunting Stannis with the "is he a ham?" line. Ham is also made of Pig, and boar has been connected to changes in power... soon enough all those at this banquet will have to find new loyalties. Spun-sugar unicorns also appear on the banquet, and Davos most probably will sail to the island of the unicorns, Skagos, in TWoW. Lemon cakes probably symbolise naiveté, which squares with Catelyn's observation that these are the knights of summer. Lastly, the wheels of buttery cheese remind me of another banquet of a young gay king who never reigned, also at the evening after a tourney: Of Lord Butterwell's tourney in The Mystery Knight and Daemon II Blackfyre...

Few men love Stannis... but Davos does.

Very nice GftV!

[Lummel]

What I mean is not that there won't be a fight for the throne, quite the opposite. What I mean is the common assumptin on the board that claims just don't matter at all, and that conquest eradicates all prior claims...

Dunno. There is a tide to board assumptions. If you find that the common assumption is that claims don't matter at all I can only imagine that it is a reaction to Stannis fans stressing a legalistic-legitimist approach. But these things go in phases.

I think for Davos the question is at this stage above his pay grade. He has hitched himself to Stannis' star, that is the ticket for him and his family to be smallfolk no loner. The downside of Stannis' royal claim is that Davos stands to loose everything while those other nobles as he notices can just change sides.

Renly I think implicitly is potentially suggesting something very threatening. If he can upset birth order because he is a more suitable crown candidate why shouldn't Garlan the Gallent supplant Willas when Mace dies? (Who knows perhaps he might). At the same time he represents authority through acclamation and consent :dunno:

I think there are a bundle of issues there, authority, how a society deals with competition for power, why people are loyal or are not - this is the volume in which Varys' sets his power riddle about who the sellsword would obey and why and that is an idea that GRRM returns to it seems in most (if not all) his POVs in this volume.

Your point about earnt loyalty is an interesting one with regard to Stannis and Davos which I suppose we'll get to later, but at this stage Stannis expects the loyalty and service of the Stormlords, the Dragonstone Lords without ever having done anything to earn it. The Ned at least does the rounds, visits his bannermen and kisses babies, his people believe that Winterfell remembers.

Off topic but I agree that Bob's rebellion and kingship deferred a westeros appropriate constitutional debate through the Lannister marriage and promising not to go to Dorne. With his death then that whole question is open - just what does a society do without an outsider king to be a peace locus, so far the answer seems to be that it falls into many warring pieces!

[E-Ro]

Awesome reread, and great posts all around. I don't have much to add right now, but i will be lurking and following this thread very closely. Davos is such a great character and he really does deserve a great reread. This is off to a good start, so to everyone involved keep the good work up.

Hopefully i will have something more substantial to add later.

[WinterKing]

According to Tyrion after SE falls, Stannis burns the weirwoods. Stannis in this aspect parallels Ar-Pharazôn, the king who ruled from an island, who cut down the sacred white tree, Nimloth, at the instigation of Sauron and used to light the first flames in the fire of the new religion that worshiped Melkor, the Dark Lord. The new religion viewed death as evil. People were burned in the fires as sacrifices to Melkor, including members of the Faithful, who stayed loyal to the old faith and believed death was not an evil. The people who took up the worship of Melkor became known as "King's Men".

GRRM inverts it; at Mel's instigation, Stannis, a king who rules from the island of Dragonstone, gave the weirwoods to the fire of the new god, R'hllor, the Lord of Light. The "King's Men" are those who are faithful to the old Faith of the Seven while those who worship R'hllor with Stannis as the "Queen's Men". People, including men who stayed loyal to the Seven, are burned as sacrifices. The Red Faith, as Mel reveals, sees death as evil.

Nice parallel between Stannis and Ar- Pharazon!

[Blisscraft]

Renly I think implicitly is potentially suggesting something very threatening. If he can upset birth order because he is a more suitable crown candidate why shouldn't Garlan the Gallent supplant Willas when Mace dies? (Who knows perhaps he might). At the same time he represents authority through acclamation and consent :dunno:

I think there are a bundle of issues there, authority, how a society deals with competition for power, why people are loyal or are not - this is the volume in which Varys' sets his power riddle about who the sellsword would obey and why and that is an idea that GRRM returns to it seems in most (if not all) his POVs in this volume.

There is something to be said for certainty. :D Otherwise (no pun intended) you have disorder. Renly truly is the most dangerous character in this regard.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

Hi everyone. This is a disclaimer to say that I have never contributed to a re-read before so please don't be surprised if you notice a drop in quality from Mladen's posts.

Davos III, ACOK

OVERVIEW

Davos commands his ship, Black Betha, during The Battle of the Blackwater. Throughout the chapter, we see signs that Davos does not belong in the battle and that something is wrong. Davos rams an enemy ship and boards another during the battle, before Black Betha is finally sunk by Wildfire. The chapter ends with Davos being swept towards the burning wreckage of other ships kept in place by the boom.

OBSERVATIONS

1. Davos doesn't belong on the battlefield

2. His sons are seemingly slipping away from him

3. Davos does not know Stannis as well as he once did

4. Davos is partially aware that something is wrong throughout the chapter

5. Davos recognises the incompetence of his superiors, particularly Ser Imry

ANALYSIS

"Smugglers do not sound warhorns and raise banners. When they smell danger, they raise sail and run before the wind."

Perhaps the most recurring theme throughout all of Davos' chapters is the idea of him still being a smuggler at heart. This, coupled with how he feels as if he is coming home ("...but deep down he was still Davos of Flea Bottom, coming home to his city on its three high hills."), represents how out of place Davos is. After all, what kind of smuggler fights a battle at his home? This is, in my opinion, a testament to Davos' loyalty to Stannis.

Three other pieces of imagery come to mind: biting his tongue when he rams an enemy ship, flinching when a piece of wood flies past his head and finding the enemy captain dead before he had a chance to fight him. These seem to show that Davos shouldn't be there.

"Davos could make out Fury well to the southeast, her sails shimmering golden as they came down, the crowned stag of Baratheon blazoned on the canvas. From her decks Stannis Baratheon had commanded the assault on Dragonstone sixteen years before, but this time he had chosen to ride with his army, trusting Fury and the command of the fleet to his wife's brother Ser Imry, who'd come over to his cause at Storm's End with Lord Allester and all the other Florents.

Davos knew Fury as well as he knew his own ships. Above her three hundred oars was a deck given wholly over to scorpions, and topside she mounted catapults fore and aft, large enough to fling barrels of burning pitch. A most formidable ship, and very swift as well, although Ser Imry had packed her bow-to-stern with armoured knights and men-at-arms, at some cost to her speed."

Davos knows Fury very well and to me this seems to reflect how well he knows Stannis, except that now Stannis is not the one commanding Fury, Ser Imry is. This means two things. The first is that Stannis is becoming more distant and unknown to Davos and the second is that Davos is able to read Ser Imry very well: "The deck of Black Betha churned as crewmen ran to their tasks, pushing through soldiers who always seemed to be in the way no matter where they stood." "...although Ser Imry had packed her bow-to-stern with armoured knights and men-at-arms..." Davos recognises Ser Imry's incompetence who seems to be the soldier to Davos' crewman. Ser Imry ordered the headlong rush despite Davos advising caution which is arguably what causes the disaster with the Wildfire.

"Davos and his sons had been assigned a place in the second line of battle, well out on the dangerous starboard wing. "A place of honour," Allard had declared, well-satisfied with the chance to prove his valour. "A place of peril," his father had pointed out. His sons had given him pitying looks, even young Maric. The onion knight has become an old woman, he could still hear them thinking, still a smuggler at heart."

Echoing his thoughts that his sons refuse to see the onion on their sigil, it seems that Davos' sons are becoming more distant to him, yet he still relies upon them in the battle: it is Allard's Lady Marya that helps Black Betha to ram Lady's Shame and Matthos alerts Davos to the threat of the White Hart.

"We should be flying the crowned stag, he thought. The stag was King Robert's sigil, the city would rejoice to see it. This stranger's standard serves only to set men against us."

Although Melisandre has been sent away, a sight Davos was happy to see, he still feels her presence and he knows that it is detrimental.

"The squat towers of raw new stone that stood opposite one another at the mouth of the Blackwater might mean nothing to Ser Imry, but to him it was as if two extra fingers had sprouted from his knuckles."

The presence of the towers and the lowered chain is very troubling to Davos. He seems to have a gut feeling that something is wrong.

"Davos never saw the battle joined, but he heard it; a great rendering crash as two galleys came together. He could not say which two."

This adds to the feeling of uncertainty as Davis cannot see what is going on, but he can hear it though he doesn't yet know what it is exactly.

[Isildur's Mane]

Great write up, Stannis Eats No Peaches. I haven't read the chapter yet, but some thoughts came to me when i was reading your overview and i thought I'd share them:

...

Davos III, ACOK

<snip>

"We should be flying the crowned stag, he thought. The stag was King Robert's sigil, the city would rejoice to see it. This stranger's standard serves only to set men against us."

Although Melisandre has been sent away, a sight Davos was happy to see, he still feels her presence and he knows that it is detrimental.

"This stranger's standard" I read as the stranger, as in death.

"Davos never saw the battle joined, but he heard it; a great rendering crash as two galleys came together. He could not say which two."

This adds to the feeling of uncertainty as Davis cannot see what is going on, but he can hear it though he doesn't yet know what it is exactly.

I like your thoughts on that, and it made me think this:

I have a feeling, and I could be wrong, but is this a reference to Davos not being able to read yet? In that, he can only go by what he has been told and has to judge situations based on that (as well as being a good judge of character etc).

Reading has to do with being learned too. Learning to read means learning the facts on different things, from what the men of the NW ate/had to eat hundreds of years ago to how to make a poison to kill a dragon etc.

[Mladen]

I have been preoccupied with RL issues, and other projects on the board, and due to that I made some misteps... But, it is what it is, and we'll carry it on as best as we can... TheguyfromtheVale will write for us Catelyn POV chapter analysis, with emphasis on what happened during the night shadowbaby killed Renly, and I will try to depict how Stannis is seen from angle of those in KL before and during Blackwater. I do apologize for not thinking thois through, and because of my errors, we'll have a bit confused thread for a while, but I hope you'll find it in your hearts to understand... Thank you...

Now, I will focus Catelyn's POV during negotiations between Stannis and Renly:

Catelyn and Davos are foils for each other, here. Both value loyalty, and both do all that they do for their families, ultimately. But while the separation from her children depresses Catelyn and sours her stance towards loyalty, Davos doesn't separate the two issues. For him, loyalty and family are the same thing. Soon enough, Davos will lose some of his children, too. And while his reaction is not quite as severe as Catelyn's, his loyalty will also be shaken by these events.

I think that Catelyn, who is unlike Davos, related by blood for the King she serves, also have the same attitude. I see Catelyn here as both mother and negotiator, and the fact she shows that during the meeting says a lot about her. Davos' loyalty is loyalty of a man who understands perfectly whom he serves and if fail, he will lose everything. But more than that, his children will lose anything. Davos doesn't fight for Stannis out of some personal gain, he does that because he wants bright future for his children. And as much as love is death of loyalty for some, and Catelyn in a way proved that when she let Jaime go, Davos' love is actually tremendous motivator for all he does in Stannis' name.

Again, Catelyn and Davos are presented as foils here. Both have mutilated hands, a fate they share with Jaime and Jon... curiously enough, Davos, Catelyn and Jon have all connections to R'hllorism of one way or another. Beric also cut his hand to set his sword on fire. Will Jaime be involved in the magical storyline too?

Hmm, interesting, but I would say there is another approach to this. We have Stannis who mamed Davos, Catelyn's wounded hands, later we'll have Stannis burning his Hand after Blackwater, What is in common for all these three? Uncompromisingly, Stannis rarely listens to many advices they give him. He rejected Catelyn's idea of peace between him and Renly, he rejected the idea of peace with IT, he sent Davos far from him, and in that time he did some really shady things. Stannis seems to be quite authoritarian man, and with this clues, he seems that he doesn't need a Hand. People like Robert, Renly, Dany, Joffrey, Robb, they all need some guidance. Stannis is too different from them. He is self-sufficient in many things, but alas Blackwater will teach him valuable lesson, and he will become lenient to other people's opinions.

As for claims not mattering, if that was the case, Westeros would be in a state of constant anarchy. Kings would be popping up like mushrooms.

Actually, Westeros, throughout its long history was in constant anarchy. First we had seven separate kingdoms, then Targaryens conquested it, then it was Faith uprising, Dance of dragons, Blackfyre rebellions, Robert's rebellion, Greyjoy rebellion, and lastly War of 5 Kings. Claims and titles are important for some idealized stability, but that changes nothing. The KITN, Blood of Valyria, heir to the IT, what does that all mean, if you can't control the Kingdom. Kings are popping up like mushrooms. And when that happens, people realize how worthless is any title? How title served Robb and Cat when Freys betrayed them, or Elia and her children when Sack of KL happened. Were they treated with some dignity, and were killed appropriately? No, mutilated, they became examples how barbaric and monstruous society is. The thing is that power trumps any claim or title...

In the next post, about Davos III

[Mladen]

First, Stannis Eats No Peaches, well done on beautifully written and interesting analysis. It is indeed a pleasure to work on this reread. And the only thing anyone can notice here is interesting and well presented analysis, and nothing more.

Now, my observations:

1. Fury, Stannis and Davos

As we know Baratheon words are ''Ours is the Fury'' symbolizing strength and valor of the House members, here the Fury is embodied in the ship Davos knows very well. But in this scene, we see the new order of things. Just like his sons noticed, they are in the second line. This 'second line' also can be reffered to Davos' position with the King. The first line currently is Melisandre and Queen's men led by Florents. Fury whose captain is now Florent in this chapter marks Davos' new position, and the fact that Florents, through Melisandre and Selyse, have seized great deal of power. The fact that Queen's Man is leading Fury to Stannis' defeat speaks a lot.

2. Knights of summer and winter

When Catelyn Stark made remark about Knights of summer and the fact that winter is coming, here we can see the validity of her words.Allard, eager to fight and prove his valor, is satisfied with given position, but Davos who knows warfare better understands that the place they are given are dangerous. And just like those who learn that in wars the most important thing is to survive, Davos knows how expendable he is to Ser Imry, and he finds no joy in the fact his sons will be where the battle would be thickest.

3. Ships destroyed by wildfire

He saw Black Betha burning, and White Hart and Loyal Man to either side. Piety, Cat, Courageous, Sceptre, Red Raven, Harridan, Faithful, Fury, they had all gone up, Kingslander and Godsgrace as well, the demon was eating his own.

When we see what ships were destroyed by wildfire, you can draw several symbolic references here. First we have Black Betha, who represents Davos foreshadowing what we'll see in ASOS, where he loses again from Melisandre. White Hart and Loyal Man representing the burning of weirwood and those who oppose Melisandre's preaches. Cat is burned, as posible foreshadowing for Catelyn's death and resurrection as Lady Stoneheart, marking destruction of who Catelyn was. Sceptre as destruction of Stannis' soveregnity and reign as King. Piety as burning of the Seven, and lastly Fury as the end of Baratheons. The burning of the Fury is symbolic defeat of Stannis, but also the end of one era for House Baratheon. Burned Fury as stag eaten by burning heart... All of this symbolizes Stannis' loss due to Melisandre.

This chapter shows us how smuggler insticts and street smartness is far more useful than title, blood or last name. What Davos anticipated, and what they all knew, about the chain and wildfire, were completely useless. Eager desire for swift victories, led Stannis' fleet to demise, just like it led Renly. And just like Stannis won Renly even against the numbers, Tyrion won this time. Was this kharmic reciprocity? You could say that. But more than that, this chapter shows us that there are no swift and easy victories, and that numbers at the end means nothing, even in warfare. For battles are not won only by sword...

[Fire Eater]

Nice job Stannis Eats No Peaches and Mladen

Queen Alysanne and Lady of Silk, still locked together, were a raging green inferno, drifting downriver and dragging pieces of Lady's Shame.

And so it had, though once she [Cersei] had drawn a picture of herself flying behind Rhaegar on a dragon, her arms wrapped tight about his chest. When Jaime had discovered it she told him it was Queen Alysanne and King Jaehaerys.

Foreshadowing for Cersei, with Queen Alysanne being a metaphor for Cersei. As for Lady's Silk, the Street of Silk is named for its brothels, and this is a point to Cersei exchanging services from men for sexual favors. Lady's Shame foreshadows her walk of shame, and "a raging green inferno, drifting downriver" points to Cersei's growing madness, akin to wildfire which Aerys was fond of, and Cersei is compared to wildfire many times.

[yomi]

Hi!

I'm new to the forum and still reading the fourth and fifth book and I don't have anything to contribte to this thread right now, but seeing that there hasn't been a new post in the last nine days I wanted to encourage you to keep it up.

Davos became my favourite character in the third book and this thread brought up some great thoughts like e.g. the picture of Davos and Mellisandre as Stannis' shoulder angel/devil.

So please keep going! :thumbsup:

[Lala]

Davos is amazing!

Inspired by a discussion on theology in another thread, I wondered whether Davos' discomfort at the burning of the Seven isn't rooted more in what the Seven represent - the status quo and conventional morality of the 7K. For all of his smuggler antecedents, Davos strikes me as a man who is strongly invested in the pre-existing social systems and social mores of Westeros - the burning of the Seven would represent a destruction, in his eyes, of everything he has believed in up to this point wrt morality and honorable behavior.

[Fire Eater]

But Davos had been more interested in what the captives had to say about the defenses at King's Landing.

Davos is already proving to be a better battle commander by gathering information on the defenses of KL as Ser Rodrik said Know your foe. Sun Tzu knew it is important to gather information on your enemies to determine strategy. Davos observes the environment around him, and is able to determine the enemy's strategy in drawing the galleys in.

Also, when is the next chapter coming out?

[Lummel]

Stannis in the ACOK Tyrion chapters to the beginning of the battle of the Blackwater

Tyrion I

Cersei: “What use will your few hundred men be if Renly marches on the city, or Stannis sails from Dragonstone? I ask for an army and my father sends me a dwarf.”

Tyrion II

Varys reports: “The master of the King's Galley White Hart plots to slip anchor three days hence to offer his sword and ship to lord Stannis”

Tyrion III

Council meeting to discuss the Stannis letter declaring Joffrey et al a bastard

Tyrion IV

Tyrion fears Stannis attacking King's Landingby sea while Renly attacks on land

Tyrion V

“How safe do you think Myrcella will be if King's Landing falls? Renly and Stannis will mount her head beside yours.”

Tyrion VI

“Lord Stannis has sailed from Dragonstone...He hasn't sailed against us...He's laid siege to Storm's End. Renly is riding to meet him.”

“Gods be good...I'm starting to believe that Robert was the clever one...And Stannis has always felt he was cheated of Storm's End...The ancestral seat of House Baratheon, his by rights...if you knew how many times he came to Robert singing that same dull song in that gloomy aggrieved tone he has. When Robert gave the place to Renly, Stannis clenched his jaw so tight I thought his teeth would shatter.”

“He took I as a slight.”

“It was meant as a slight”

Tyrion VIII

News of Renly's murder. Embassy sent to Bitterbridge.

Tyrion IX

The riot. There are people in the crowd shouting for Robb, Stannis and Renly

Tyrion X

Varys tells Tyrion that Ser Courtney Penrose has been murdered and that he suspects the involvement of magic.

Tyrion XI

Tyrion tells the High Septon that Stannis burnt the gods wood at Storm's End. Varys gives the Antler Men to Tyrion.

Tyrion XII

Cersei: “I've never trusted Littlefinger. For enough coin, he'd go over to Stannis in a heartbeat.”

Tyrion: “Stannis Baratheon is too bloody righteous to buy men. Nor would he make a comfortable lord for the likes of Petyr. This war has made for some queer bedfellows, I agree, but those two? No.”

In brief the mentions of Stannis and Renly serve to tie the Tyrion chapters to the relevant Davos and Catelyn chapters. No mention that I could see of our hero Davos Seaworth. Repeated emphasis of Stannis' character as we saw it in the prologue – bitter and brooding on the past. There is a consistent build up to the battle of the Blackwater.

More substantially the references tie into the theme of families. The Baratheons are a house divided against themselves, Tyrion fears them acting in concert and there would have been plenty of time to squabble over the spoils after a victory, however due to family dynamics and prophecy Catelyn (and the reader) is left to say “Listen to yourselves! If you were sons of mine, I would bang your heads together and lock you in a bedchamber until you remembered that you were brothers.”

Stannis' position is analogous to Tyrion's. Both have a fair case for seeing themselves as the rightful heirs and both see themselves as unjustly excluded from their just inheritance. However there is a world of difference in how they deal with that. Stannis broods on it, while Tyrion doesn't vocalise it until the beginning of ASOS – though this may be explained by Stannis having a seat and a household which Tyrion doesn't. Tyrion possibly feels too dependant on the success of the Lannisters as a House to admit his desire for Casterly Rock aloud.

In any case Davos is an absolute contrast to both men. Davos is grateful for what he has and is very aware of where he came from. His social superiors don't share his attitude. What they have has given them ambition for more. Davos to the contrary at this stage fears to loose what he has. What we have in the Davos POV is an absolutely different view on the world.

...Inspired by a discussion on theology in another thread, I wondered whether Davos' discomfort at the burning of the Seven isn't rooted more in what the Seven represent - the status quo and conventional morality of the 7K. For all of his smuggler antecedents, Davos strikes me as a man who is strongly invested in the pre-existing social systems and social mores of Westeros - the burning of the Seven would represent a destruction, in his eyes, of everything he has believed in up to this point wrt morality and honorable behavior.

Yes...but/and the Seven is the faith that Davos was brought up and practised. I think for anyone seeing the symbols and accoutrements of their own faith being publicly burnt would have a similar end of the world/world turned up side down feel to it. I'm not sure that the religious aspect can be pulled apart from the social and moral elements - isn't it all intertwined?