The Last King`s Man: Rereading Davos

[Cruella]

Of course it's there for a reason, but the world is limited by amount of author's knowledge. Like a Wall being too high is not a subtle hint that wildlings have magical arrows.

And yes, he also references armour with Victarion, who IIRC thinks it's dangerous to wear armour on board, but he's not afraid of drowning, so being fearless badass viking not afraid of death he takes advantage of wearing armor. So between them two, it seems like GRRM does indeed consider it rather dangerous business. And since I have no good idea, and it sounds reasonable, I always took him on his word in this.

[Mladen]

OP NOTIFICATION:

During the weekend, I'll write recap of Davos' POVs in ACOK. Also we'll deal with another aspect of Blackwater bay battle, and we'll explore the Mother motif in ACOK regarding Davos, and possible foreshadowings. I am sorry for delay, but I hope you'll find it worthy of waiting. Also, Davos I ASOS will be posted during next week. Thank you all for support and effort to make this reread as best as it can be.

[Mladen]

Summary of Davos’ POV in ACOK

Presented as simple, ordinary men, without noble birth, Davos quickly fills the place of the last decent man in Westeros that was emptied by Ned’s death. The very first impression Davos gave is the simplicity that surpasses his modest exteriority and wonderfully depicts Davos’ feelings and moral standings.

]Davos was a slight man, his low birth written plain upon a common face. A well-worn green cloak, stained by salt and spray and faded from the sun, draped his thin shoulders, over brown doublet and breeches that matched brown eyes and hair. About his neck a pouch of worn leather hung from a thong. His small beard was well peppered with grey, and he wore a leather glove on his maimed left hand.

During Cressen’s prologue, we quickly learn what the situation is with Stannis and how his world functions. We got information that Cressen is no longer in his Lord’s grace that his age had taken the best of him, and that place of advisor has been claimed. During feast in which Cressen dies, we finally see the position of the figures on the Stannis’ board.

Just an Other made brilliant point about Stannis and his surrounding

I've always thought of Davos as the proverbial angel on Stannis's shoulder with Melisandre being his counterpart, the devil, red being her color notwithstanding. Unsurprisingly, the angel is a modest, unassuming man who offers cautions and hard thruths while the devil is an exotic seductress assuring of a grand destiny and the righteousness of their cause.

Still, for round one these two stand in the sidelines and the struggle is fought between Cressen and Selyse, where realism and moderation collide with arrogance and ambition. There is an interesting contradiction here. Cressen is a servant, supposedly detouched from the Lord he serves while Selyse is Stannis's wife. Yet, we see that Cressen is his actual family the one who cares for him and is worried for his soul. Selyse is basically a stranger to Stannis who is intertwined with him through social convention. It is Selyse however who echoes Stannis's feelings of being owed to and empowered by her blind faith in Melisandre accepts no compromise. The course has already been set.

In the first Davos’ POV chapter, we see the new world emerging on Dragonstone. With the burnings of the Seven, Stannis takes new religion and is named as ‘Azor Ahai reborn’. The burning of the God isn’t seen by Davos as sacrilege only, it is also seen as wrong move. Furthermore, Davos, a simple man, is capable of seeing great truths. His humility doesn’t cloud his judgment, and he knows what he sees. And sometimes magical sword is nothing more but a mess.

Lummel here encircled the gods' motif in Davos' story of ACOK, and gave wonderful insight in this scene

Rereading this chapter I found it sinister and sombre. In terms of Davos's arc in ACOK we begin with the prows of an old invasion fleet burning and we end with Stannis' invasion fleet burning. The gods will not be mocked. The sons who curse the smoke will die at the end of the book in Stannis' cause. Patchface seems to be prophesying the wildfire that will consume the fleet later on. This ties into Salladhor's Azor Ahai story later on. Azor Ahai doesn't sacrifice himself - he kills the woman he loves for his cause. Worse in Salladhor's story there is no sense of there being any benefit from that woman's innocent death just as the lives to be lost at Blackwater will be flung away for nothing.

There is a sense of this being a year zero or a cultural revolution. The gods burnt, a new god brought in. Those who oppose are imprisoned, a fear of speaking your mind openly. Davos can speak to the King, the fear is of the other people presumably the red guards of this cultural revolution Allard "had the sense to keep his voice low", when Davos is in the inn before he says "Stannis is my God" he notices that "The inn is crowded, and you are not Salladhor Saan...Be careful how you answer" he can't just sail away and saying the wrong thing could lead at least to imprisonment alongside Lord Sunglass.

ShadowCat Rivers debated about Davos' priorities and how Davos percieves religion

Speaking of religion, Davos displays the piety of the common man: dogma is not important, most people don't really know and don't even care about it - Septon Merribard explains the faith to the common people in an unorthodox way... Religion for most people is not really a philosophical belief, it's more a matter of tradition and cultural heritage. Davos, like most people, prays to the Seven because that's the way he was brought up, like the Wildlings carve faces on the trees just after they have been focred to convert to R'hlor. Tradition and cultural heritage are a very powerful motivating factor in the long term.

I think this is the reason he's shocked more by the burning of the statues than of Ser Hubard Rambton and his sons. Disobeying - acting openly against the King's decisions is a crime in Davos' eyes, a crime that "rightfully" results in punishment. The burning of the seven, on the other hand...

The encircled story of burning fleets, with undoubtedly very powerful Mother motif in Davos' storyline points us, in a very distinctive direction Davos will be at the beginning of ASOS. Throughout Davos' chapters, we see that he considers Stannis as the paragon of virtue, justice and honesty. Davos knows the good and the bad about his King, and he is one of the rare people that serve someone out of pure loyalty. In Davos' eyes, Stannis deserved all of that and much more. Davos would give Stannis everything, and tragically he did. he gave Stannis his 4 sons that were killed during Battle at Blackwater Bay.

But between Dragonstone and Blackwater, there is second Davos' POV chapter in Storm's End, where negotiations aabout Edric Storm with Cortnay Penrose take place and at the end, Davos serving as fairyman of death taking Melisandre to give birth to a shadowbaby inside Storm's End.

Blisscraft made comparison between Penrose and Davos

"Ser Corney Penrose wore no armor." - This is a gesture not only of defiance, but also one of fearlessness. Penrose, lovely name, is mightier than the swords and armor that Stannis and his men have donned. It will take more than a show of force to compel his surrender. In a way, not being armed in the face of Stannis' show of armor is more courageous than Penrose's retort to Mel: "May the Others bugger your Lord of Light. . . and wipe his arse with that rag you bear" and the several other nasty comments he has to say to the armed to the teeth Lords and Knights before him. It's no wonder he challenges Stannis to single combat. Davos calls him "stubborn," but understands that he "keeps faith."

And Lummel made interesting parallel about Davos' servitude

A disturbing chapter. Follows on from Davos I with how absolutely dependent on Stannis Davos is and how that shapes his attitude and language towards Stannis. Later when Brienne swears to serve Catelyn, Catelyn swears not to require Brienne to do anything dishonourable - Stannis doesn't recognise any such restriction on what he asks of Davos. "would a good man be doing this" - his service cause him to violate his moral code, but this is what keeps him a knight and protects his family from being smallfolk again - and from what we see in ASOIAF you really don't want to be smallfolk.

Last post about this chapter, Blisscraft's phylosophical post about Melisandre's shadowbaby

The appearance of a shadow as a separate being or other, marks a "split". Stannis' shadow is made manifest by Mel's magic somehow. The book offers not details as to what creates this, although one can infer that some kind of intercourse between Mel and Stannis is involved. Mel becomes the "mother" to Stannis' shadow or dark side or other. Stannis' shadow does what Stannis the human being will not.

This is such a classic depiction of the Jung's idea of the shadow. We have seen the enemy and it is us.

As good as Davos is, one thing is certain. He will follow Stannis to the bitter end. What we learnt about Davos in this chapter that he is ready to do morally wrong things, only if he Kings asks him to do. He want do that willingly, but he will obey. Among many people Stannis now have, Davos is unique for his proclivity to say harsh truths, to understand the human nature and to recognize those who are no friends. In a way, Davos draws line between him and other Lords. This idea continues when we find out that his counsel for prudency is rejected by other lords during Blackwater battle.

The last chapter brings another somber, disturbing situiation Davos has found in. Davos' intuition is now working against him, because he knows what he has to do, since he has been given orders. In the last Davos' POV in ACOK, we see how wrong everything was, how everything Stannis did backfired him, and we are left not knowing wether Davos will survive the hell of Blackwtater. There are several powerful motifs in this chapter that continues on previos ones.

"Davos and his sons had been assigned a place in the second line of battle, well out on the dangerous starboard wing. "A place of honour," Allard had declared, well-satisfied with the chance to prove his valour. "A place of peril," his father had pointed out. His sons had given him pitying looks, even young Maric. The onion knight has become an old woman, he could still hear them thinking,still a smuggler at heart."

Knowing his place is one of leit-motifs of Davos' storyline. He is a knight, but he is reminded that he was smuggler, he is lord, but he is expendable enough so they give him dangerous place. Davos is so conflicted between 2 identities that it is quite interesting to see how he deals with it.

The story of Davos Seaworth in ACOK is a story of simple man in a world where nothing is simple. And just like the place of the last decent man in Westeros has been emptied for reason, Davos shows that sometimes honesty, loyalty, obedience and humility can all lead you on a dangerous path someone else has set for you. But Davos isn't Stannis, nor he will ever be, for the life how Davos sees it, is much complicted and real than the black-and-white version of Stannis.

Last quote comes from Lummel to summarize Davos' personality

In any case Davos is an absolute contrast to both men(Stannis and Tyrion). Davos is grateful for what he has and is very aware of where he came from. His social superiors don't share his attitude. What they have has given them ambition for more. Davos to the contrary at this stage fears to loose what he has. What we have in the Davos POV is an absolutely different view on the world.

P.S. For this summary, I used the quotes from all of you that enrichened this thread. My own analysis of the three Davos' chapters can be found on the thread. In the next post, I will give you summarized list of motifs in Davos' storyline and i would like to hear your opinion how in their inception, these motifs influenced Davos' story in ASOS and ADWD.

[Mladen]

SUMMARIZED LIST OF MOTIFS IN DAVOS' STORYLINE IN ACOK

1. Simple man, simple rules. Davos is loyal, obedient man, rady to do everything for his King

2. Bitter truth. throughout ACOK, we see Davos presenting Stannis some truths he doesn't want to hear

3. Compassion. Connection with Sansa and Barristan situation from AGOT mirrors Davos' compassion towards Cressen

4. Mother motif. Stannis pulls out the sword from Mother's chest, Melisandre gave birth to shadowbaby

5. Knight of onions. Layers in onion as demonstration that one smuggler can think much deeper than you think

6. Identity issues. Knight vs. Smuggler. How people see Davos and how Davos sees him self.

7. Blind obedience. Davos would do everything Stannis asks of him, but is there a line

8. Instincts. Davos' instincts could have saved Stannis' army if he was listened.

9. Opposites. Juxtaposition of nobility and commoners, Melisandre and Davos.

10. Good vs. bad. Who is right? Melisandre or Davos, and should we look at world as black-and-white or just as grey.

OP NOTIFICATION: Davos I ASOS will be posted some time during next week...

[Mladen]

OP NOTIFICATION:

Since there is no respond to summary of the ACOK's Davos' storyline, I think it's time to move on to ASOS. By the end of the week, I will post analysis of Davos I ASOS chapter. I do hope you will all remain with us and help us move on this thread...

[Mladen]

Davos I, ASOS

Overview

After surviving the horror of Blackwater bay, Davos founds himself on deserted rock. Starved, sick Davos reminisces about the battle, death of his four sons, how he survived it and everything that led him to “his” rock. At the end, he is found by one of the ships of Salladhor Saan.

Observations

• The chapter is positioned between Tyrion’s, who is “guilty” for the wildfire horror, and Sansa, whose mother motif has been incredibly strong during the battle.
  
• Living between life and death
  
• Patchface’s prophetic line about smoke bubbles and green, blue and black flames under the sea.
  
• Drinking seawater means inevitable death. Red wedding or House of Black and white parallel? Is it about salt or water?
  
• Mother’s task for Davos?
  

Analysis

1. Broken, but not destroyed: To be or not to be

The battle is over. Those that are dead are somewhere else, some in peace and some in hell. The ending of COK brought unknown future for many characters, but it also depicts that walking the line between life and death changes people. After surviving various horrors, none of the protagonists are same. And just after Tyrion’s deposition, we find Davos lost at sea. And just as Tyrion lost his status as Hand, Davos, when found, uses past tense to describe what happened: I was a captain… I was a knight… There is a clear foreshadowing here that once he comes back, he will be neither captain nor knight…

Existential debate in Davos is overwhelming. This isn’t a man who was just beaten in battle, or who lost earthly possessions, Davos actually lost everything. His luck, his ship, his sons… He is completely broken on that rock, but he continues to fight for every breath. There were moments when death seemed inevitable, but he was always pulled back to life. First it was the storm, and later it was Lysene ship. Both of those are connected metaphorically with Stannis. Storms as symbol of Stannis’ homeland, and the ship as symbol of Stannis reign. What is even more interesting is that Davos’ first thought is that Stannis is alive:

Stannis lives, he knew then. I have a king still. And sons, I have other sons, and a wife loyal and loving. How could he have forgotten?

Stannis isn’t just a hope for Davos, he becomes the reason why Davos is saved. And as Davos thought: She had a task for him. So, Mother is a hero, savior in this chapter, where Stannis is the reason, the goal…

2. Number four symbolism

First, let me point out all the references of number of in this chapter:

1. Four days since the last rain

2. Hunger, thirst, wind and rain

3. Four sons lost in Blackwater battle

4. Four fingers that brought him luck are gone

5. Four sins he committed:

• Allowing the statues of the Seven to be burnt
  
• Transporting Melisandre to Storm’s End
  
• Letting Melisandre killing Cressen
  
• Sailing under fiery heart of Red God
  

6. Four rowers at the boat that came for him

7. Four identities: a smuggler, a fool, a captain and a knight

Four as number has the stability in its core. It is the number of the balance in the universe: four elements, four seasons… In numerology, number 4 represents completion, practice, repetition, realization of power, ability to use practical thinking, basic form of order, prepare for renewal, instinctual knowledge. In religion, most notably in Christianity, there are 4 Gospels and 4 horsemen of Apocalypse – Conquest, War, Famine and Death, and in Buddhism it represents 4 noble truths:

1. Life means suffering

2. The origin of suffering is attachment

3. The cessation of suffering is attainable

4. The path to the cessation of suffering

Since the religious symbolism is strong in this chapter, I would like to examine both Christian and Buddhist philosophy inside this chapter. Most of us compare hierarchical structure of the Faith with Catholic Church, and in Davos’ chapter we see basically that the horsemen of Apocalypse are coming for Davos to take him to his death. Four elements that Davos recognizes that will take him to his death – hunger, thirst, wind and rain are all connected with horsemen’s symbolism. Hunger is naturally Famine. Thirst is something interesting. Davos knows that water around him is death, and the scene mirrors House of Black and White where people drink from pool to be granted with the gift of death. The wind is important part of conquest, especially for the sailor like Davos. And the rain is part of every storm, especially storm of swords. And while possible interpretation of the Christian symbols indicates death, Buddhist philosophy talks about the cessation of suffering. One thing is clear from the beginning, life means suffering for Davos. To live without his 4 sons, is something no parent should live up to, through Stannis he is attached to the evil he believes caused this horror, and to cease the suffering is to sever the attachment, and to basically rebirth as the man that will walk the middle path between extremes of asceticism and hedonism, or in this case more appropriately fanaticism and agnosticism. There, Davos was reborn by the Buddhists, by reaching a level of absolute clarity, which is something we will discuss in the next chapter.

3. Patchface’s prophecy

Patchface is known to give prophetic lines. In one of his songs, we heard foreshadowing about Red wedding, the other for dancing shadows and so on. For some, the truth may have not yet come to pass. But I am interested in possible foreshadowings of his 2 lines:

1. Under the sea no one wears hats. I know. I know…

2. Under the sea, smoke rises in bubbles, and flames burn green and blue and black.

Could the 1^st line be connected with Davos losing his helmet due to Blackwater chaos. Davos had always been a strong swimmer, and he’d worn no steel that day, but for the helm he’d lost when he’d lost Black Betha.

As for the second line, we could connect it with Davos’ swimming:

With every stroke it grew harder to hold his breath. He remembered seeing the bottom, soft and dim, as a stream of bubbles burst from his lips.

He twisted in the water to look up, but there was nothing to see but green darkness and then he spun too far and suddenly he could no longer tell up from down.

4. Mother’s hymn and mercy

The Mother motif has been particularly strong in ACOK. We have seen Catelyn praying for her children, Sansa singing Mother’s hymn two times, and here we have the first male to be praying to Mother. Mother in this chapter isn’t just a nurturer or parent, it provides guidance, purpose. Mother gave symbolically Davos a new life, for he realized he has something to live for. For his King, his family, to stop the madness that made him to commit all the crimes she “accused” him of doing. Her mercy, as Davos noted saved him. From feeling bad over the burning of the Gods to acknowledging Mother’s “power”, Davos’ path led to the hell of the wildfire, and depth of the sea… Through hell and purgatory…

Conclusion

The beginning of Davos’ storyline in ASOS suggests us that, unlike in ACOK, he won’t be making compromises with his honor. He will do the right thing, whether he will break his greatest law of obeying the King, or standing against those he finds abhorrent. For, resurrection of Davos, doesn’t mean the creation of a new man, such as we will see in Lancel in AFFC, but returning to the core of his being, to all that is good, honest and kind. For after all, that is what every mother nurtures in their children…

[Fire Eater]

Good job with the four symbolism, especially since this wasn't an easy chapter.

I have nothing to add except the Ar-Pharazôn I already posted in this thread, and a possible crackpot:

Wraith and Lady Marya were gone

I think this foreshadows Davos's wife Marya being killed if Cersei goes Macbeth and has his family killed.

[yomi]

Just some short ideas while brainstorming about the number four in the Faith of the Three Christianity.

• Four Horsemen: Honestly I'm not well versed about the apocalypse, so I'm just going with your list of them, Mladen, and it seems that Davos encountered them all more or less. He just comes from a battle, where four of his sons (and many other people) died and had a near-death experience himself and he is pretty much straved on his rock. Famine/Hunger also plays the main role in Davos' last war experience during Robert's Rebellion, where he brought food to Stannis in Storm's End. Conquest Davos had the least contact to, but he spent quiet some time on Dragonstone, the home of Aegon the Conqueror, and stood at the very table on which Aegon planned his conquest. Stannis war is no conquest but just trying to claim his rightful heirlom, but the work load is pretty much the same and IIRC it is compared quiet often.
  
• Four times ten days of Jesus fasting in the Desert (and four weeks of Advent and four times ten years of the Isrealites wandering in the desert): Davos spends "just" four days on his rock and isn't temped by riches or such, but he is tempted to just give up and die, which he resists. While physically weaker of course he comes out of his fasting experience morally stronger, resolved and with a purpose. And after four days ship arrives... and that's exactly what Advent means, arrival (IIRC there are even Christmas songs about an arriving ship).
  

There's also four women with who Jacob had children (so, four mothers) and its forty days between Easter and Ascension, but I don't have any idea's about that.

[Mladen]

Good job with the four symbolism, especially since this wasn't an easy chapter.

I have nothing to add except the Ar-Pharazôn I already posted in this thread, and a possible crackpot:

Wraith and Lady Marya were gone

I think this foreshadows Davos's wife Marya being killed if Cersei goes Macbeth and has his family killed.

So short and yet so difficult for analysis... I have to say that, entire dwelling between life and death, and religious conotation of it, is impressive. The lost luck, killed boys, somber atmosphere, all of that suggests someone who lost everything, and yet Davos refuses to crawl into a cave and die. There is a spark in him, even before Mother "spoke" to him... Also, I like the opposition of the boat symbolism. In Greek mythology boat is used for carrying people to Underworld, and here boat returns Davos to the world of living.

Just some short ideas while brainstorming about the number four in the Faith of the Three Christianity.

• Four Horsemen: Honestly I'm not well versed about the apocalypse, so I'm just going with your list of them, Mladen, and it seems that Davos encountered them all more or less. He just comes from a battle, where four of his sons (and many other people) died and had a near-death experience himself and he is pretty much straved on his rock. Famine/Hunger also plays the main role in Davos' last war experience during Robert's Rebellion, where he brought food to Stannis in Storm's End. Conquest Davos had the least contact to, but he spent quiet some time on Dragonstone, the home of Aegon the Conqueror, and stood at the very table on which Aegon planned his conquest. Stannis war is no conquest but just trying to claim his rightful heirlom, but the work load is pretty much the same and IIRC it is compared quiet often.
  
• Four times ten days of Jesus fasting in the Desert (and four weeks of Advent and four times ten years of the Isrealites wandering in the desert): Davos spends "just" four days on his rock and isn't temped by riches or such, but he is tempted to just give up and die, which he resists. While physically weaker of course he comes out of his fasting experience morally stronger, resolved and with a purpose. And after four days ship arrives... and that's exactly what Advent means, arrival (IIRC there are even Christmas songs about an arriving ship).
  

There's also four women with who Jacob had children (so, four mothers) and its forty days between Easter and Ascension, but I don't have any idea's about that.

Nice idea, yomi. Four has many symbolic meanings, and many interpretations... I chose 4 noble truths and 4 Horsemen since I thought it would be most fitting for this chapter...

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Slowly catching up, after a few weeks of no-internet-no-phone vacation... Great stuff on number four and its religious significance.

I was thinking that, the number three in the "Faith of the Three", as yomi so fittingly put it, was deemed as incomplete by the popular wisdom. So, they corrected it, by adding to the trinity one fourth, "unofficial" (to the dogma) member: the holy virgin, the Mother. The church does not regard her as god, but people do worship her equally if not more, at least judging by the religious people that I know...

The Mother has a task for Davos, or so he believes. But is it what he thinks it is, or is it something else? Jumping ahead a little bit, Davos has saved Edric Storm and is now in a quest to find Rickon. Maybe his task could be to protect four children of four mothers, in order to get absolution for his four sins? It would be a fitting task (and gives me hope about Shireen, too).

On drinking seawater and death - no symbolism, just stating a fact, I would think. Drinking seawater causes dehydration. It is known.

[yomi]

On drinking seawater and death - no symbolism, just stating a fact, I would think. Drinking seawater causes dehydration. It is known.

Espeacially to experienced sailors like Davos.

[Mladen]

The Mother has a task for Davos, or so he believes. But is it what he thinks it is, or is it something else? Jumping ahead a little bit, Davos has saved Edric Storm and is now in a quest to find Rickon. Maybe his task could be to protect four children of four mothers, in order to get absolution for his four sins? It would be a fitting task (and gives me hope about Shireen, too).

This is interesting... I would say perhaps Shireen and Jon? Crackpot: Melisandre wants to burn Shireen so Jon would resurrect and Davos stops her?

On drinking seawater and death - no symbolism, just stating a fact, I would think. Drinking seawater causes dehydration. It is known.

I am a doctor, remember? I know the facts, but what is the symbol of death in this and paralleling it other situations? Salt or water?

[yomi]

There was salt and water involved in the red wedding:

• Water: It rained a lot and later Catelyn's body was thrown in the river.
  
• Salt: Part of the food to take a guest in.
  

So in that case I would see the water as the deathly part whereas the salt seemed to promise safety (heh heh).

For Davos on his rock on the other hand, water would have been something that sould have sustained his life, if it wasn't poissoned with to much salt.

[Mladen]

There was salt and water involved in the red wedding:

• Water: It rained a lot and later Catelyn's body was thrown in the river.
  
• Salt: Part of the food to take a guest in.
  

So in that case I would see the water as the deathly part whereas the salt seemed to promise safety (heh heh).

For Davos on his rock on the other hand, water would have been something that sould have sustained his life, if it wasn't poissoned with to much salt.

In my mind, both water and salt are symbols of death. This is wonderful parallel with Red wedding where the breach of guest right meant death, and guest right is intricatly connected with salt, and on the other hand, Arya's staying in the HoBaW, where people come to die by drinking from a pool.

[Arya kiddin']

In my mind, both water and salt are symbols of death. This is wonderful parallel with Red wedding where the breach of guest right meant death, and guest right is intricatly connected with salt, and on the other hand, Arya's staying in the HoBaW, where people come to die by drinking from a pool.

Salt and water - Ironborn have prayers such as this do they not? Bless me with salt, Bless me with steel, Bless me with stone; while pouring salt water. I do not think that salt and water symbolize death. They pertain to certain rituals. Notice that the most prominent significance of water you may get is from ironborn only. If salt and water pertain to death, can they still be used to bring someone back from life? Or they can be used to do this precisely because they are related to death? I don't know, I'll have to read those excerpts again. And notice that the ironborn revived again are alive, not undead (or so it seems).

[yomi]

Salt and water - Ironborn have prayers such as this do they not? Bless me with salt, Bless me with steel, Bless me with stone; while pouring salt water. I do not think that salt and water symbolize death. They pertain to certain rituals. Notice that the most prominent significance of water you may get is from ironborn only. If salt and water pertain to death, can they still be used to bring someone back from life? Or they can be used to do this precisely because they are related to death? I don't know, I'll have to read those excerpts again. And notice that the ironborn revived again are alive, not undead (or so it seems).

There is absolutely a connection between the Ironborn's religion and death. The Drowned God, "What is dead may never die". I think salt and water symbolize death for the Ironborn, but not in a negative way. For them, death by salt water is either one you can come back from "stronger and harder" or one that leads you into a good afterlife in the Drowned God's watery halls. The Ironborn lead a hard and violent life and to be able to face it, they kind of have embraced death.

Considering the drowning and reviving ritual of the drowned men, there doesn't seem to be anything supernatural about it. They drown the novice until he passes out and then revive them just as we would also do with someone near-drowned. In most of the cases the new drowned man survives (in some cases probably with a little brain damage), in few cases drowning and reviving took a bit to long and the person is dead. No reason why anyone would be undead.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

This is interesting... I would say perhaps Shireen and Jon? Crackpot: Melisandre wants to burn Shireen so Jon would resurrect and Davos stops her?

I am a doctor, remember? I know the facts, but what is the symbol of death in this and paralleling it other situations? Salt or water?

Sorry for the delayed response, Mladen. It seems the next few months are going to be hectic, but I 'll try to follow this reread, I really like it.

On seawater and death, I don't feel it is necessary to have a symbolism from a literary standpoint. I think it works very well as a mere fact, enriching the description of Davos' suffering from thirst. The imagery of him being surrounded by water, but this water being undrinkable, is quite powerful IMO, so I wouldn't search for symbolism in the elements, salt or water, but I 'd continue with the religious theme: temptation (to drink) leads to death. This is only my take, of course, but I think that Martin has put a lot of work into describing Davos' living conditions on his rock, as they lead to a life-changing event: Davos won't simply obey orders any more. He has another task.

All this time living on a rock, creates the "ideal" conditions for a person to have hallucinations. Or, alternatively (in religious terms), he has been living the life of an ascetic and has cleansed his soul enough for the gods to speak to him. I like that Martin leaves both interpretations open to the reader.

Either way, Davos chose (or was chosen by) the Mother. He is becoming her instrument, in the way the KOM describes it: "Are their gods all deaf? he wondered... until a realization came upon him, one night in the red darkness. “All gods have their instruments, men and women who serve them and help to work their will on earth. The slaves were not crying out to a hundred different gods, as it seemed, but to one god with a hundred different faces... and he was that god’s instrument.".

But people don't pray to the Mother for justice / revenge or death, they pray for mercy and protection. So I think it would be a lot more fitting for his task, to be the answer to mothers' prayers. I can't say which ones they would be, but I do hope for Shireen just because I want her to live. After all, the Mother is supposed to be merciful. She would not ignore a child, just because of what her parents did.

(About Jon, I don't know, but isn't he a bit too old? And he has Bran, too, so maybe it would be a bit too much?)

[Mladen]

snip

I agree upon religious connotation of drinking the water. As Shadowcat Rivers said it could be simple fact of life, salt water means eminent death. But, I always connect this scene with Arya's observations in AFFC where people come to HoBaW, drink from the pool and they die from it.

snip

We could also compare this situation with rituals of the Drowned God. We know Davos had almost drowned, and we know that he came back, we even have Mother image that gives him a task, a purpose. So, Davos, in a way, is harder and stronger. Davos, pre-Mother and post-Mother isn't exactly the same. Near death experience, just with Tyrion, changes everything.

snip

One of the lines of Mother's Hymn is: Let them know a better way. I find this chapter extremely interesting because of powerful religious symbolism. Man who is so near to commit suicide has a vision of Mother, who reminds him of his sins, and allows him to live, by showing him a path. This is one of those chapters where Martin excels as writer in creating intricate web of symbols between characters. And Mother motif is important, not just in Davos' storyline, but in many others. We had Sansa singing Mother's Hymn, and as neutral side in that war, whom is she singing for? Just for her and Hound? That is the obvious answer, but the innocence, virginity and purity of Sansa clashed with harsh reality of the war gets a voice through Mother's Hymn. At that point, we don't know whether Davos or Tyrion are alive... And in ASoS, this chapter is positioned between Tyrion's who finds out new order, and Sansa's who has been given a way out of KL. This trio has been beautifully connected in the end of ACoK to the beginning of ASoS.

Sorry, for snipping, people, but it's easier that way... Also, thank you all for the comments. Please know, that we appreciate the help in helping us keeping this thread alive.

The Davos II, ASoS will come this week, presented by Stannis Eats No Peaches.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

Hello everyone. I apologise for the brevity of this analysis, I've had a lot of work to do and don't want to keep you waiting for too long.

Davos II, ASOS

OVERVIEW

Having been saved by the Lysene ship, Shayala's Dance, Davos returns to Dragonstone with Melisandre very much in his thoughts. He intends to first find Stannis but is instead taken to Salladhor Saan. Saan tells him that much has changed and that his sons Dale, Allard, Matthos and Maric are dead, but that Devan survived. Davos blames Melisandre and announces his intention to kill her, which Saan advises against. At the end of the chapter, Davos enters the castle where he sees Patchface and Shireen and meets Edric Storm before he is arrested by Axell Florent

OBSERVATIONS

1. Davos holds Melisandre responsible for the deaths of his sons

2. Despite all that has happened, Davos' loyalty to Stannis is unshakeable

3. Davos has been changed and badly affected by his ordeal

4. Dragonstone has changed and is unwelcoming

ANALYSIS

"Melisandre. Davos shivered. "The red woman did this to him," he said. "She sent the fire to consume us, to punish Stannis for setting her aside, to teach him that he could not hope to win without her sorceries.""

Davos clearly blames Melisandre for their defeat and the deaths of his sons, who died in the fires. He sees her negative influence everywhere: "The great fire that burned atop the Sharp Point at the end of Massey's Hook reminded him of the ruby she wore at her throat , and when the world turned red at dawn and sunset the drifting clouds turned the same colour as the silks and satins of her rustling silks." Davos sees Melisandre as a threat to Stannis and will even stoop to murder, like loyal Maester Cressen before him, to prevent her from ruining him.

""You are kind, Salla, but my duty's to my king, not your purse. The war will go on. Stannis is still the rightful heir by all the laws of the Seven Kingdoms.""

Saan offers Davos a ship, with the opportunity to see his wife again and to return to the life of a smuggler, whereas Stannis cannot and only offers more war, and yet Davos still stays by Stannis' side. Davos frequently reminds himself of how everything he has, he has because of Stannis: "I was a different man in those days, before Lord Stannis raised me high."

"His ordeal had weakened him. If he stood too long his leg shook, and sometimes he fell prey to uncontrollable fits of coughing and brought up gobs of bloody phlegm."

Davos lost almost everything on the Blackwater, his sons, his ship, his finger bones and strength. However he believes that he still has a purpose: "Surely the gods did not bring me safe through fire and sea only to kill me with a flux." Curiously, unlike Stannis, Davos did not lose his faith after witnessing the deaths of his family.

"A pale wisp of smoke blew from the top of the mountain to mark where the island lay. Dragonmont is restless this morning, Davos thought, or else Melisandre is burning someone else."

Dragonstone is unwelcoming even at a distance. Indeed, even the wind itself tries to stop Davos from reaching it: "...tacking against perverse contrary winds."

On top of that, Davos finds Florent marks all over the fortress. The guards do not recognise him and even Edric Storm, a boy with "the prominent ears of a Florent" knocks him off of his feet.

[yomi]

I'll think about this later, but for now let me nit-pick about one small thing: You misquoted our dear Davos, it should be

[...] to punish Stannis for setting her aside, [...]

not him...