Who gave Mandon Moore the order to kill Tyrion?

[Ibbison from Ibben]

The most convincing arguments in this thread are for Joff or LF. Since LF is far away and has no idea about the battle dispositions, I'm leaning heavily toward Joff, with LF for a fallback case.

[mrunderhill]

Nah, the reason for that is a trial by combat between Oberyn Martell and the Mountain would make the realm bleed regardless who is victorious. If the Mountain wins, then House Martell gets even more pissed off at the Iron Throne and lead to them joining Stannis or Dany. If the Red Viper should win, then the Tyrells will be livid over Tyrion getting away with it and think that the Red Viper himself had a part to play in the poisoning, and was aiming to kill both Joffrey and Margeary. Tywin didn't give a damn about Tyrion's life, but he almost ensured that the war would go on with that trial by combat.

Except Tywin was furious before he found out, who was going to champion for Tyrion. Actually by the time he hears it is the Viper he has calmed down. Cersei is happy as can be and everyone seems glad to see Tyrion die except Tywin.

[Tumnas the Torpid]

I may be late to the party, but I think that it is, at least, possible that there was no man behind the curtain - that Mandon Moore himself, or elements of the Kingsguard including him, had become fed up with Tyrion's actions towards them (recall that, in ACoK, he threatens or humiliates Sworn Brothers of the White Sword on more than one occasion) and decided, all on his/their own, to deal with the problem. Compare with the Night's Watch mutiny, in the next book, wherein unworthy members of a once-proud order (Boros Blount, anyone?) conspire to murder their Lord Commander because he is putting their lives at risk.

I'm not saying it's a lock, and it would certainly be more interesting to have it turn out to be the will of Littlefinger, or Varys, or Hodor, but I think the idea of an independent Mandon Moore or Kingsguard conspiracy is plausible.

[Lord_Tyrell]

While I agree with most of what you said, the Tyrells would not be pissed at Tyrion per se if he got away. After all, they did poison Joff and made sure Margaery wouldn't be poisoned.

Granted, the perception of the Westerosi nobility differs from that just a tiny little bit, and the Tyrells would probably keep up that facade. ;)

Well, I don't think anyone outside of Olenna and Margeary knew about that plot. Mace was too big of a bafoon to be trusted with the knowledge and being part of its implementation. So the Tyrells as a whole would be pissed.

[Lord_Tyrell]

Except Tywin was furious before he found out, who was going to champion for Tyrion. Actually by the time he hears it is the Viper he has calmed down. Cersei is happy as can be and everyone seems glad to see Tyrion die except Tywin.

Don't get me wrong, he was still pissed before he knew who was going to be his champion. He thought Tyrion spit in his face by offering him life and the Wall for violating Guest Right and murdered Joffrey. It just became that much worse when Tyrion's trial would likely cause war, which was the ultimate spit in the face to Tywin.

[Lord_Tyrell]

Except Tywin was furious before he found out, who was going to champion for Tyrion. Actually by the time he hears it is the Viper he has calmed down. Cersei is happy as can be and everyone seems glad to see Tyrion die except Tywin.

Don't get me wrong, he was still pissed before he knew who was going to be his champion. He thought Tyrion spit in his face by offering him life and the Wall for violating Guest Right and murdered Joffrey. It just became that much worse when Tyrion's trial would likely cause war, which was the ultimate spit in the face to Tywin.

[Howie Manderly]

My theory is that it was Joffrey. GRRM has given us enough clues to figure it out, but he's hidden them very well. He reveals Joffrey's motive in this passage from Tyrion's trial:

But is Ser Osmund lying, or is GRRM misdirecting us here? Tyrion certainly can't know firsthand, as even Joffrey wouldn't be stupid enough to say this in Tyrion's presence. Who else is lying at this trial? Everybody seems to be telling the truth except Taena Merryweather and Shae, and both of them have ulterior motives to lie: Taena wants to ingratiate herself with Cersei, and Shae not only has a deal with Cersei, but also wants to dissociate herself from the traitor Tyrion.

Could Osmund Kettleblack be lying here? Probably not. The witnesses have to swear an oath to speak the truth:

and here is what Osmund's brother Osney said about lying to the High Septon in A Feast for Crows:

Cersei managed to persuade Osney to lie by sleeping with him, but is Osmund's testimony at Tyrion's trial worth that kind of persuasion? He just reports what Joffrey thought, and doesn't really tell us anything about Tyrion's actions.

So Joffrey had the motive (he thought Tyrion was planning to kill him) and he had the means and the opportunity (Mandon Moore would have obeyed him). It's not clear who else Mandon Moore would have obeyed apart from Cersei, and not only is she smart enough to realize that Tyrion is helping defend King's Landing, but she also thought she had Tyrion under control because she had his whore captive.

What makes you think that swearing to tell the truth means anything? It is well known that people lie constantly in this series.

[IRON BANK]

I always went with Cersie giving the order.

[Manfryd Lothston]

It was Littlefinger, by way of Joff. LF orchestrated it in the same way he orchestrated Ned's execution; he planted the idea into Joff's head in both cases.

It's either LF or Varys.

The character of Mandon Moore himself is important here. From what we know, he was a remarkably unassuming knight with little interest in worldly possessions, common vices, and politics. His entire life was focused on his duty as Kingsguard. He was also a man who would unquestioningly obey an order to kill. So, the conclusion is, no one really had any leverage over Moore to make him kill Tyrion, except a person with the authority to order him to do so. And if not Cersei, that leaves only Joff. Of course, not being the brightest pea in the pod, the Boy King would probably require some external rationalisation to allow him to act upon his gut hatred towards his uncle. And Littlefinger is the likely candidate to provide such rationalisation. But not the only one.

Basically I see the Moore incident stemming from the same source as Ned's execution and the attempt on Bran's life in Winterfell. All have links to Joffrey, yet also a deeper motive of sowing discord and chaos. Littlefinger is an obvious suspect, but so is Varys given his recently revealed agenda.

Personally I'd enjoy a twist where Baelish is better, and the Eunuch is worse, than what we previously believed them to be.

[Frodo Stark n dwolf Gollum]

I've always been a firm believer that Ser Mandon acted on his own. The interaction between Tyrion, Bronn, and Ser Mandon lead me to that conclusion. I think Ser Mandon was possibly friends with Ser Vardis Egen. Or, at least had great respect for the man.

Bronn was seated cross-legged under a chestnut tree, near where they’d tied the horses. He was honing the edge of his sword, wide awake; the sellsword did not seem to sleep like other men. “Where did you find her?” Tyrion asked him as he pissed.

“I took her from a knight. The man was loath to give her up, but your name changed his thinking somewhat … that, and my dirk at his throat.”

“Splendid,” Tyrion said dryly, shaking off the last drops. “I seem to recall saying find me a whore, not make me an enemy.” I would suggest it was this incident. GRRM is fond of making every war /battle about c*nt to use his word mildly. Robert for Lyanna, Jamie admitted he would start one for Cersei, Theon's actions in response to his sister, Jorah for Lynesse / Dany, etc. Since the Kingsguard are in Kings Landing, Moore is not at this battle, but his kin (if any) may be said knight. It wouldn't surprise me if GRRM intended a different storyline that took another tangent where Moore was not the attempting murderer at Blackwater. As detail-oriented as GRRM professes to be, there are a lot of loose threads, and errata. The blundering of characters can only explain so much. Tyrion, Varys, and LF are in a battle of wits. No one would do in the other. It's the Crown of Wits for which they fight. Each is a narcissist when it comes to their own beautiful mind. Cersei has a love-hate relationship with her brother. Emotional ambivalence does not lead to attempted of murder. Lord Ty would never kill Ty because of the love of his memory for Lady Joanna, and his identity is gained through Tyrion. "...but Lady Joanna ruled Lord Tywin. “He was not the same man after she died, Imp,” his Uncle Gery told him once. “The best part of him died with her.” Joff is spineless and wouldn't have the courage, or brains to pay someone. Oberyn Nymeros Martell poisoned Joff. Tyrion is a victim as he's been through the entire series of books. The person who fate stacks the deck against.

[Drogon'sWrath]

Mandon was a Kingsguard, and I don't believe he would attempt to kill Tyrion without a direct order. A Kingsguard can only take a direct order from the king or queen (in this case queen regent). I don't think it was Cersei that gave the order. We have POV chapters for her, and in none of them does she make any note of Mandon Moore. Surely, with her paranoia over Tyrion, she would have at least once cursed Moore for not doing the job right. That leaves Joffrey as being the only person who could give the order. Like what probably happended with Ned's execution, the idea was planted in Joff's head. Either Varys or LF planted the idea to have Tyrion killed. Both of their plans involve relying on the incompetency of whoever is ruling. Tyrion was gaining power and was competent, so both had the motive. I have to go with LF. It fits his mo of having others do the dirty work for him, such as using Lyn Corbray to break up plots against him and letting the Tyrells poison Joff while he was away. If it was Varys, he would've killed Tyrion in a manner similar to the way he killed Kevan and Pycelle. In short, Joffrey gave the order to Mandon, but Littlefinger planted the idea in his head.

[Ser Areo Mace]

Bronn was seated cross-legged under a chestnut tree, near where they’d tied the horses. He was honing the edge of his sword, wide awake; the sellsword did not seem to sleep like other men. “Where did you find her?” Tyrion asked him as he pissed.

“I took her from a knight. The man was loath to give her up, but your name changed his thinking somewhat … that, and my dirk at his throat.”

“Splendid,” Tyrion said dryly, shaking off the last drops. “I seem to recall saying find me a whore, not make me an enemy.” I would suggest it was this incident. GRRM is fond of making every war /battle about c*nt to use his word mildly. Robert for Lyanna, Jamie admitted he would start one for Cersei, Theon's actions in response to his sister, Jorah for Lynesse / Dany, etc. Since the Kingsguard are in Kings Landing, Moore is not at this battle, but his kin (if any) may be said knight. It wouldn't surprise me if GRRM intended a different storyline that took another tangent where Moore was not the attempting murderer at Blackwater. As detail-oriented as GRRM professes to be, there are a lot of loose threads, and errata. The blundering of characters can only explain so much. Tyrion, Varys, and LF are in a battle of wits. No one would do in the other. It's the Crown of Wits for which they fight. Each is a narcissist when it comes to their own beautiful mind. Cersei has a love-hate relationship with her brother. Emotional ambivalence does not lead to attempted of murder. Lord Ty would never kill Ty because of the love of his memory for Lady Joanna, and his identity is gained through Tyrion. "...but Lady Joanna ruled Lord Tywin. “He was not the same man after she died, Imp,” his Uncle Gery told him once. “The best part of him died with her.” Joff is spineless and wouldn't have the courage, or brains to pay someone. Oberyn Nymeros Martell poisoned Joff. Tyrion is a victim as he's been through the entire series of books. The person who fate stacks the deck against.

Ser Mandon Moore is from the Vale. If he had any kin that are knights, most likely they are still in the Vale serving House Moore(which is a noble house so most likely Mandon is a younger brother or uncle to the current lord), or any of the other Houses in the Vale. Robar Royce seems to be one of the few men from the Vale to travel out of the Vale to find work. And that was mostly due to him being a second son and saw a chance at glory with a newly crowned king in the Reach.

I was referring to the exchange of words Tyrion and Ser Mandon have in Tyrion's first chapter of aCoK.

"Ser Mandon, you have not met my companions. This is Timett son of Timett, a red hand of the Burned Men. And this is Bronn. Perchance you recall Ser Vardis Egen, who was the captain of Lord Arryn's household guard?"

"I know the man." Ser Mandon's eyes were pale grey, oddly flat and lifeless.

"Knew," Bronn corrected with a thin smile.

Ser Mandon did not deign to show that he had heard that.

Now, as we know from the lines directly before this exchange. Jaime considers Moore the most dangerous of the Kingsguard--excepting himself, always--because his face gave no hint as what he might do next. Moore is hard to read, so we don't know how he took the exchange from Tyrion and Bronn. But he probably wasn't a fan of the company Tyrion kept(clansmen that harass the people of the Vale and an asshole sellsword who just informed him that he killed a fairly well respected knight from the Vale), and possibly wasn't a fan of Tyrion either(Tyrion's kinda of an asshole himself).

[Light a wight tonight]

Bronn was seated cross-legged under a chestnut tree, near where they’d tied the horses. He was honing the edge of his sword, wide awake; the sellsword did not seem to sleep like other men. “Where did you find her?” Tyrion asked him as he pissed.

“I took her from a knight. The man was loath to give her up, but your name changed his thinking somewhat … that, and my dirk at his throat.”

“Splendid,” Tyrion said dryly, shaking off the last drops. “I seem to recall saying find me a whore, not make me an enemy.” I would suggest it was this incident. GRRM is fond of making every war /battle about c*nt to use his word mildly. Robert for Lyanna, Jamie admitted he would start one for Cersei, Theon's actions in response to his sister, Jorah for Lynesse / Dany, etc. Since the Kingsguard are in Kings Landing, Moore is not at this battle, but his kin (if any) may be said knight. It wouldn't surprise me if GRRM intended a different storyline that took another tangent where Moore was not the attempting murderer at Blackwater. As detail-oriented as GRRM professes to be, there are a lot of loose threads, and errata. The blundering of characters can only explain so much. Tyrion, Varys, and LF are in a battle of wits. No one would do in the other. It's the Crown of Wits for which they fight. Each is a narcissist when it comes to their own beautiful mind. Cersei has a love-hate relationship with her brother. Emotional ambivalence does not lead to attempted of murder. Lord Ty would never kill Ty because of the love of his memory for Lady Joanna, and his identity is gained through Tyrion. "...but Lady Joanna ruled Lord Tywin. “He was not the same man after she died, Imp,” his Uncle Gery told him once. “The best part of him died with her.” Joff is spineless and wouldn't have the courage, or brains to pay someone. Oberyn Nymeros Martell poisoned Joff. Tyrion is a victim as he's been through the entire series of books. The person who fate stacks the deck against.

Re, the bolded: it's very well established that Joff's poisoning was a plot including Littlefinger and the Tyrells. The poison was one of the amethysts in the hairnet that Dontos gave Sansa, and insisted that she wear it to the wedding feast. We know that Dontos was in Littlefinger's pay. LF was the source of the hairnet. When Sansa enters the banquet hall Lady Olenna fusses with her hair. At that point she gets the poison. She hands it off to another Tyrell who drops it in the chalice when the pigeon pie is being cut. At this point Marg has been coached not to drink from the chalice. *kof, kof*, no more Joff.

[Tolsimir]

I always thought it was Varys but this thread convinced me it was LF.

[Dragon Roast]

Joff is/was a tool waiting to be moved.

We know from the book and the show that Littlefinger could move Joff with the ease that Bran could move Summer or Hodor.

Joff gave the order to Madon Moore to kill Tyrion, but LF put that idea into his somewhat empty head. I don't see how there can be any doubt about that. Joff was a piece that could be reliably move. Tyrion was not. It makes sense to try and use a piece under your control to remove a piece out of your control. It is how the game is played.

This was a straight-up LF move. Nothing more and nothing less.

I'm going to enjoy when the blow-back from some minor scheme ends up costing LF his life. The more obscure the reason for his downfall, the more enjoyable it will be. I like to think that Ser Dontos had a close friend who plots a pay-back. The small randomness of it would be sweet...

[danm_999]

Once again, what does Tyrion threatening LF to tell Lysa Jon's true killer (even though he is wrong) have anything to do with proving LF was behind theMoore plot?

No, he threatens to 'deliver' Jon Arryn's true killer, not reveal him. He's inadvertently stumbled on one of Littlefinger's most important secrets in a way that creates a powerful for Littlefinger to have Tyrion killed.

LF acted surprised. He acted, to make Tyrion think he has more power/knowledge than he actually does. There was no secret information at risk of being outed by Tyrion here at all, so it makes no sense why he would have Tyrion killed, for THAT.

On the contrary. Littlefinger knows Tyrion was recently at the Vale of Arryn with Catelyn and Lysa, and even though he was implicated in Jon Arryn and Bran's murders, he was allowed to leave alive by the Tully girls. It cannot fail to be a possibility in Littlefinger's mind the various lies and deceptions he had spun were undone in the Eyrie, especially given Lysa's innate instability (which is exactly how Sansa finds all this out).

This is all to say that Littlefinger's surprise is genuine (we already know Tyrion can see through Littlefinger's poker face as seen with the incident of Harrenhall, the metaphorical honeycomb) and that he believes Tyrion is threatening him in a similar vein to how Varys threatens people. Combine this reasonable suspicion that Tyrion knows about the Tears with the fact Tyrion demonstrates an ability to trick Littlefinger (the Myrcella deception), and that he's clearly working close with Varys and you begin to see why Littlefinger would think Tyrion had to go.

[Sweet-N-SourRobin]

In Tyrion's short time in The Vale, he:

1) Embarrassed the Arryn family (or what's left of it) which has ruled it since it was an independent Kingdom

2) Caused the death of a prominent knight, Ser Vardis Egan

3) ARMED THE HILL TRIBES AND GIVEN THEM A UNIFYING CAUSE. The common enemy of all noble houses in The Vale, regardless of stripe or rank or rivalry. Tyrion, in modern parlance, sold guns to terrorists, as far as they're concerned. Especially since said aforementioned common cause for the Hill Tribes would be overthrowing (and most likely murdering) all those Vale Nobles.

Unsexy as the idea is, I find it completely plausible that Mandon Moore would be motivated to act on his own and take a chance to take Tyrion out. Or, if Littlefinger did put him up to it, directly or via Joffrey, Moore did not need much convincing.

And if not for the practical joke played on Tyrion (Pod is given to him as a gag at both their expenses, remember), it would've worked. :)

[TheTowerOfJoy]

I think Joffrey ultimately gave the order, simply because I don't think Mandon would have taken the order from anyone but the king. He wasn't really an honorable man, but I think he took his duty as King's Guard seriously (as evidenced by making sure Joffrey was safe during the mob scene), and I doubt he could be bought to kill a member of the royal family without the King's consent.

Now whether Littlefinger put him up to it is up for debate, IMO.

[Lord Elrosir]

See, in the show it made perfect sense. Joffrey wanted Tyrion and by extension, Bronn, dead, hence why he sent Clegane to kill Bronn, and gave the order to Moore to kill Tyrion at some point during the battle.

Strong evidence that vindicates Cersei is her lack of thought on the matter when she is examining her paranoia towards Tyrion.

[Guest]

Joffery or Cersei. I honestly always thought it was Cersei until the show pointed out that even she isn't as stupid as Joffery, so now I lean more towards Joff.