Cersei - Trial by combat, possibly Trial of Seven

[Inquisitor Glokta]

Hi all,

after finally reading the 3 Dunk and Egg novels (oh man, i can't for the She-wolves) i thought about this as a possible outcome for Cersei's trial.

First off, what is 'Trial of Seven', for those of you who don't know:

Prince Baelor shifted uncomfortably in his seat. “It is another form of trial by combat. Ancient, seldom

invoked. It came across the narrow sea with the Andals and their seven gods. In any trial by combat, the

accuser and accused are asking the gods to decide the issue between them. The Andals believed that if

the seven champions fought on each side, the gods, being thus honored, would be more like to take a

hand and see that a just result was achieved.”

The High Sparrow, appeared as a cunning and very pious man so far and we haven't got a reaction from him to the abomination called Robert Strong. How do you think he will react?

I believe, that it would make most sense for him, to demand a Trial of Seven, to which he has the right:

"A trial of seven,” said Prince Aerion, smiling. “That is my right, I do believe."

The chances for the faith winning in a 7vs6+unGreg are also higher than in a 1v1 duel against unGreg.

Also the fact that 7 fighters on each side especially honor the gods, therefore a 'just outcome is more likely achieved', could also be a contributing factor to this decision.

Personally i think, that a Trial of Seven would be a nice outcome for Cersei's trial, it would make for a good read(like the one in the Hedgeknight) and most important, it would give the gravedigger on the Quite Isle a chance for a big comeback. ;)

Don't get me wrong, of course a Trial of Seven by no means ensures a win for the Faith, but it would give them a fighting chance at least and i want to see the Hound vs. the Mountain epic duel between brothers...

[danm_999]

I absolutely think this is a possibility. In fact, there's a wee bit of foreshadowing;

The delegation from the Faith was headed by her old friend Septon Raynard. Six of the Warrior’s Sons escorted him across the city; together they were seven, a holy and propitious number. The new High Septon—or High Sparrow, as Moon Boy had dubbed him—did everything by sevens.

And look how he sets up Margaery's trial;

The High Sparrow steepled his thin hands. “I have had the selfsame thought, Your Grace. Just as Maegor the Cruel once took the swords from the Faith, so Jaehaerys the Conciliator deprived us of the scales of judgment. Yet who is truly fit to judge a queen, save the Seven Above and the godsworn below? A sacred court of seven judges shall sit upon this case.

Qyburn even says to Cersei at one point when she demands to be released;

That will not be allowed. You are to be tried before a holy court of seven, for murder, treason, and fornication.”

So would the High Sparrow invoke the Trial of Seven? I'd say so. Potentially, there's something even sneakier the High Sparrow could do here that ensures he'll automatically win without a fight.

This time she did laugh. It was funny, terribly funny, hideously funny. “The gods make japes of all our hopes and plans. I have a champion no man can defeat, but I am forbidden to make use of him. I am the queen, Qyburn. My honor can only be defended by a Sworn Brother of the Kingsguard.”

Margaery stared at her, then pulled her hand away. “Is that a jape? Boros is a craven, Meryn is old and slow, your brother is maimed, the other two are off in Dorne, and Osmund is a bloody Kettleblack. Loras has two brothers, not six. If there’s to be a trial by battle, I want Garlan as my champion.”

“Ser Garlan is not a member of the Kingsguard,” the queen said. “When the queen’s honor is at issue, law and custom require that her champion be one of the king’s sworn seven. The High Septon will insist, I fear.” I will make certain of it.

So the rules are;

1) The honour of the Queen can only be defended by the Kinsguard.

2) In a Trial by Seven, you need seven defenders. Which would mean Cersei needs the entire Kingsguard, which she cannot get.

So what happens then if Cersei comes up short on the numbers?

“Six,” said Dunk. “Ser Lyonel is knighting Raymun Fossoway. We will fight you six against seven.”

Men had won at far worse odds, he knew.

But Lord Ashford shook his head. “That is not permitted, ser. If you cannot find another knight to take your side, you must be declared guilty of the crimes of which you stand accused.”

It'd be pretty hilarious if the High Septon had completely outmanoeuvre Cersei on this from start to finish, and managed to rig her trial before it was even fought.

[C0bR]

what happens then if Cersei comes up short on the numbers?

It'd be pretty hilarious if the High Septon had completely outmanoeuvre Cersei on this from start to finish, and managed to rig her trial before it was even fought.

If a man cannot find six others to stand with him, then he is obviously guilty.

[Inquisitor Glokta]

So the rules are;

1) The honour of the Queen can only be defended by the Kinsguard.

2) In a Trial by Seven, you need seven defenders. Which would mean Cersei needs the entire Kingsguard, which she cannot get.

So what happens then if Cersei comes up short on the numbers?

It'd be pretty hilarious if the High Septon had completely outmanoeuvre Cersei on this from start to finish, and managed to rig her trial before it was even fought.

I also thought about that possibility, since Loras is conveniently(by that i mean he is not injured at all) dying on Dragonstone and Jaime being abducted by the BWB Cersei would be short 2 champions.

But i don't know how that would work out with Maggies prophecy... mhm we will have to wait ;)

I can even see Olenna behind this.

It is way to convenient that Taena (one of the Tyrells pets) is the one who 'helped' Cersei get the brilliant idea to frame Margaery. Just after Cersei got 'rid' of Loras, who is now dying on Dragonstone...

[lentrix]

_{I think this has a good chance of happening}

[Inquisitor Glokta]

I kept reading on in D&E and came across this:

“Or mayhap they simply had a taste for swordplay,” said Lord Leo Tyrell, a cynical smile touching his

lips. “Regardless, Ser Aerion is within his rights. A trial of seven it must be.”

So if either the accuser or the accused ask for a Trial of Seven, it must be a ToS. Cersei would have no way of denying it.

[mindchap]

The only thing I don't like is that, if it happens, it will diminish the importance of the last one, where it was really right versus wrong. Add Cersei and the Faith to the mix and it might as well be on Springer.

[Inquisitor Glokta]

The only thing I don't like is that, if it happens, it will diminish the importance of the last one, where it was really right versus wrong. Add Cersei and the Faith to the mix and it might as well be on Springer.

Ehm, i don't want to disappoint you, but Cersei is guilty of almost all charges she is accused off, at least the severe ones.

We know she had:

-Lancel give king Robert strong wine with the intention of getting him killed

-sex with at least Jaime, Lancel and maybe a few others

-Margaery wrongfully accused by a Kettleback

It would actually be an epic battle between right and wrong, good and evil.

[danm_999]

I kept reading on in D&E and came across this:

So if either the accuser or the accused ask for a Trial of Seven, it must be a ToS. Cersei would have no way of denying it.

As best as we can tell, the accused gets to choose whether it's trial or trial by battle, and the accuser gets to decide whether it's a standard trial by battle, or a trial by seven.

[Inquisitor Glokta]

As best as we can tell, the accused gets to choose whether it's trial or trial by battle, and the accuser gets to decide whether it's a standard trial by battle, or a trial by seven.

Yep and we know the accused (Cersei) definitely wants a Trial by Combat and the accuser (High Sparrow) would have a good reason to ask for Trial of Seven when he sees her champion, who will be called an abomination, i'm sure off it ;)

[danm_999]

Ehm, i don't want to disappoint you, but Cersei is guilty of almost all charges she is accused off, at least the severe ones.

We know she had:

-Lancel give king Robert strong wine with the intention of getting him killed

-sex with at least Jaime, Lancel and maybe a few others

-Margaery wrongfully accused by a Kettleback

It would actually be an epic battle between right and wrong, good and evil.

The High Sparrow is also spot on about her having the old High Septon killed.

[Inquisitor Glokta]

The High Sparrow is also spot on about her having the old High Septon killed.

Oh yeah, i totally forgot that one. Cersei sure as hell wants no trial. If the Kettleback were to spill the beans as a witness she would go down.

[SeanF]

Cersei is indeed guilty as charged, but the High Septon is no more pleasant an individual, so the comparison with Jerry Springer is valid.

If indeed, the High Septon invoked a trial by Seven, and Cersei was effectively condemned without trial, I imagine she'd either look to escape, or stand a siege the Red Keep. I don't think her story is over yet.

[Manfryd Lothston]

Personally i think, that a Trial of Seven would be a nice outcome for Cersei's trial, it would make for a good read(like the one in the Hedgeknight) and most important, it would give the gravedigger on the Quite Isle a chance for a big comeback. ;)

Don't get me wrong, of course a Trial of Seven by no means ensures a win for the Faith, but it would give them a fighting chance at least and i want to see the Hound vs. the Mountain epic duel between brothers...

Remember that Bran has a vision about Ungregor menacing Arya and Sansa, and the Hound is also there (with Jaime Lannister, too). So it's more likely, IMO, that Sandor will have his culminating battle with the Mountain later on, possibly in the final book, and will do so in defense of Arya and/or Sansa.

Cersei's trial by combat is the first battle appearance of Ungregor, so conventions declare that it is used to establish his character rather than write him off. Most probably he will roflstomp whatever opposition the Septons put forward, Cersei will reinstate herself as ruler after Kevan's death, and at some point she or Qyburn will send Ungregor to wipe out the surviving Starks, thereby triggering the final confrontation with the Hound and fulfilling Bran's prophecy.

[Jon of Elsewhere]

I was actually JUST about to post this topic

What I was going to say is look at it from a story telling angle.

What is the significance of this trial to the story besides determining the fate of Cersie?

Besides everything else, you are introducing a serious bad guy in battle. How is that going to be done? Are we seriously going to have to flip through pages when some faith militant champion is wheeled out, pisses himself and is crushed? Lancel vs the Mountain is not going to happen. All this would show is that the Mountain is back, I have a feeling Robert Strong is seriously more powerful than the Mountain,

There are three outcomes that make a good story

1.) Strong is surprisingly killed or otherwise neutralized, Cersie is f'd and the Faith Militant becomes a major power.

2.) Strong, in spite of some doubt (hard to make Strong the underdog, the high septon would have to pull some trickery) wins and shows his brute strength and shows hes a force to be reconed with

3.) Strong goes above and beyond expected brutality and makes a hell of a reputation for himself

And the corresponding occurences to lead to them

1.) Sandor Clegaine makes his triumphant return slaying the monster

2.) The high septon does something tricky. I believe he might use his place of power to impliment a new tradition and force Strong to fight 7 champions alone because the champions represent the seven. Strong steamrolls them showing us and westeros that he is a force.

Now for 3 which I think has GRRM written all over it

3.) A Trial of the Seven is Called, Tyrells want to get in on this Robert Strong business and force Cersie to include Margery on her side in the trial of the Seven and sweeten the pot with Garlan and a few other Champions of the Reach. They are faced by some Micky Mouse squad swearing up and down that the 7 will delive them. Its a massacre. Robert Strong kills all seven with increasing levels of brutality. Then the monster turns on his own. Kills the Reach Champions and Garlan, then continues to rampage through all Tyrells and Members of the faith in the area. Tyrells and Lanisters finally split siding with Aegon and leaving the Lannisters facing overwealming odds

[Frey-A-La-Mode]

Now for 3 which I think has GRRM written all over it

3.) A Trial of the Seven is Called, Tyrells want to get in on this Robert Strong business and force Cersie to include Margery on her side in the trial of the Seven and sweeten the pot with Garlan and a few other Champions of the Reach. They are faced by some Micky Mouse squad swearing up and down that the 7 will delive them. Its a massacre. Robert Strong kills all seven with increasing levels of brutality. Then the monster turns on his own. Kills the Reach Champions and Garland, then continues to rampage through all Tyrells and Members of the faith in the area. Tyrells and Lanisters final split

THIS would be incredible. Remember how The Mountain killed that stableboy during his fight with Oberyn?

[Manfryd Lothston]

Ungregor is definitely Cersei's and Qyburn's ticket back into power. And given the bloodthirsty nature of the two, as well as their mounting desire for revenge, the trial will probably go south very fast and turn into a slaughterhouse. Varys could be helping Cersei's cause as well, since in his eyes the more chaos in King's Landing the better for the Targ/Blackfyre pretenders. The final sundering of the alliance between Lannisters and Tyrells is almost a given, as well as final break-up between Jaime and Cersei.

[SeanF]

Following the murder of Ser Kevan and Pycelle, the Tyrells are in almost total control at King's Landing, apart from a few hundred Lannister guards.

Presumably, Margaery has discussed her suspicions about Cersei's framing her with her father and brother. They must be sorely tempted to see Cersei condemned to death.

But, if that happens, Tommen's legitimacy is called into question, and any continuing alliance with the Lannisters will vanish. So grudgingly, I think they'll try to keep Cersei alive, but powerless.

[protar]

I can definitely see the Trial of the Seven (and Cersei's obligation to use the KG as her 7) as an extra obstacle for the trial. However I don't think Cersei will lose. Is it possible that Balon manages to return to KL, and in the meantime Cersei dismisses Jaime and Loras allowing her to appoint 2 new knights to the KG (or rather persuade Tommen to name said knights.)?

I certainly don't see Cersei being killed as a result of this trial however if all 7 KG are being used in a trial, that leaves the king rather unprotected, which could lead to Tommen being assassinated. Perhaps Tyene poisons him without Boros there to food test for him?

I'd also be interested to see who might stand as the Seven Champions against Cersei. Lancel, Ser Theodan and perhaps Bonifer Hasty seem likely. It seems too early to bring the Hound in against Ungregor. Are there any other holy knights about?

[Lady Nastja]

I had never before considered this. It would certainly make Cersei's trial much more interesting...thank you OP, this is a solid and plausible theory, one to reflect on.