Cersei - Trial by combat, possibly Trial of Seven

[Inquisitor Glokta]

Yeah it's really exciting because this thing can basically go a million ways in TWoW. The King's Landing stuff is really what I'm most excited about behind Sam's story in Oldtown at the Citadel.

^^

I absolutely hate Cersei as a POV character, but i'm so much more intrigued on which way her/KL arc will go ;)

[danm_999]

Maybe Cersei figures it out and demands the Trial by Seven herself, would that allow her to appoint a time?

From the precedent we have, the accuser dictates the Trial by Seven, and dictates the time.

Or maybe it'll work out like Oberyn vs. Gregor: Cersei will lose but manage to escape. Or the fallout of Kevan's death delays the trial long enough for Cersei to sort something out.

Quite possible. Or maybe the Tyrells and Lannisters will simply reject the result out of hand. After all, if Cersei is found guilty, it means that Tommen is officially a bastard of incest, which is not exactly something the Tyrells want either.

As I said above, this plotline is pretty interesting because there's so much that can awry.

[Inquisitor Glokta]

From the precedent we have, the accuser dictates the Trial by Seven, and dictates the time.

I think, because the Trial of Seven is meant to please the gods, the accused can also ask for it. After all, if the accuser is right, how could he deny the accused of it? ;)

edit:

Maybe Cersei figures it out and demands the Trial by Seven herself, would that allow her to appoint a time? Or maybe it'll work out like Oberyn vs. Gregor: Cersei will lose but manage to escape. Or the fallout of Kevan's death delays the trial long enough for Cersei to sort something out.

Why would Cersei demand a Trial of Seven? She knows her undead necromanced 8feet tall champion certainlyhas an advantage in a 1v1, compared to a 7v7, where worst case 3-4 guys could end up fighting him.

[protar]

Why would Cersei demand a Trial of Seven? She knows her undead necromanced 8feet tall champion certainlyhas an advantage in a 1v1, compared to a 7v7, where worst case 3-4 guys could end up fighting him.

I meant, if she figured out that the High Sparrow was about to rig her election by invoking trial of the 7 and forcing her to rely on her inadequate KG, she could preempt him by invoking the trial herself meaning it would be her, not him who would dictate the time of the battle. This would give her the time to get her KG in order before the trial.

EDIT: So in short, if trial by 7 is inevitable, she might as well make it on her own terms.

[jeepers_flowers]

From the precedent we have, the accuser dictates the Trial by Seven, and dictates the time.

Quite possible. Or maybe the Tyrells and Lannisters will simply reject the result out of hand. After all, if Cersei is found guilty, it means that Tommen is officially a bastard of incest, which is not exactly something the Tyrells want either.

As I said above, this plotline is pretty interesting because there's so much that can awry.

I'm not sure about that. If Cersei is guilty the Lannisters are disgraced and there is a power vacuum in KL. Who's in the best position to fill it? Of the great houses, the Starks are all but wiped out (as far as everyone is concerned), the Lannisters are represented only by Jamie, the Arryns (LF, in effect) are too far away and divided, the Martells are too far away as well, the Baratheons are dead or at the wall, the Tullys are either prisoners or on the run and the Greyjoys are otherwise engaged.

[Spinebreaker]

Cersei's trial by combat is the first battle appearance of Ungregor, so conventions declare that it is used to establish his character rather than write him off. Most probably he will roflstomp whatever opposition the Septons put forward,

^This^

We (on this board) are ASOIAF geeks (geeks, geeks. Rhymes with freaks) the majority of 'normal', average readers will have very little clue about Cleganstein. He needs to be properly introduced and demonstate his power.

What if the trial by seven happens and the Septon's group, who are in the eyes of the gods 'Right' almost win, taking out Cleganstein's 6 allies, and then he, able to win against the gods will by being an abomination rends and tears his way alone through Cersei's 7. Demonstrating his sheer brutish monstrousness. All while Loras and Jaime are conveniently unavailable...

And to build towards Sandor setting him on fire of course.

[danm_999]

I'm not sure about that. If Cersei is guilty the Lannisters are disgraced and there is a power vacuum in KL. Who's in the best position to fill it?

The Tyrells have already filled it. They're already in control. However, they need Tommen to legitimise that control, and since Tommen is young, pliable, and already married to Margaery, he's the perfect pawn. They would not want to get rid of Tommen, since he so well fulfills their ambitions.

The Tyrells lose everything by Tommen being outed as a bastard, and gain nothing. In fact, should Tommen be divested, they suddenly have to worry about what pretext they have in being in control of the Iron Throne at all; especially since Aegon and Stannis are both alive and in open rebellion. Even in the Reach, they're regarded by some as upjumped stewards who don't have a proper claim to Highgarden. They can't seize the Iron Throne without Tommen.

Tommen being declared bastard is a nightmare for the Tyrells.

[Lord Damian]

I absolutely think this is a possibility. In fact, there's a wee bit of foreshadowing;

And look how he sets up Margaery's trial;

Qyburn even says to Cersei at one point when she demands to be released;

So would the High Sparrow invoke the Trial of Seven? I'd say so. Potentially, there's something even sneakier the High Sparrow could do here that ensures he'll automatically win without a fight.

So the rules are;

1) The honour of the Queen can only be defended by the Kinsguard.

2) In a Trial by Seven, you need seven defenders. Which would mean Cersei needs the entire Kingsguard, which she cannot get.

So what happens then if Cersei comes up short on the numbers?

It'd be pretty hilarious if the High Septon had completely outmanoeuvre Cersei on this from start to finish, and managed to rig her trial before it was even fought.

It would be justice for both women. Margeary has been probably involved in other complicit acts of treason, yeah, marrying Renly and taking a crown as queen from him. However, both houses most likely will not go for that. There will be blood between the fath and Tyrells and Lannisters and against each other. This is gonna get real nasty. Aegon will have smooth sailing when he comes for the Iron Throne because of it. I bet he gets tight with the faith for their support.

[SeanF]

I'm not sure about that. If Cersei is guilty the Lannisters are disgraced and there is a power vacuum in KL. Who's in the best position to fill it? Of the great houses, the Starks are all but wiped out (as far as everyone is concerned), the Lannisters are represented only by Jamie, the Arryns (LF, in effect) are too far away and divided, the Martells are too far away as well, the Baratheons are dead or at the wall, the Tullys are either prisoners or on the run and the Greyjoys are otherwise engaged.

If Cersei is found guilty, then Tommen is officially illegitimate. Margaery is married to someone who has no claim to the Iron Throne. That's not what the Tyrells want.

The Tyrells want at least the appearance of legitimacy for their government. They don't want it to be an overt military dictatorship.

[jeepers_flowers]

If Cersei is found guilty, then Tommen is officially illegitimate. Margaery is married to someone who has no claim to the Iron Throne. That's not what the Tyrells want.

The Tyrells want at least the appearance of legitimacy for their government. They don't want it to be an overt military dictatorship.

Sure, but it's not as if they're screwed without him. Possession is everything. We saw that when Ned arrived at KL during RR - he could have taken the throne for himself. Even if they lack legitimacy, they're there. No-one else is. Margaery is far more marketable than Stannis. Stannis attacked KL and by extension, its small folk. Margaery is loved by the small folk.

Plus, Stannis is at the wall. Who knows what could happen? Better to be in position as 'stewards' or 'regents' than standing around, waiting for someone else to take the throne.

[Manfryd Lothston]

With Tywin and Kevan dead, Tyrion in exile, and Jaime a Kingsguard with no interest in politics, Lannisters have no leaders except Cersei, who hates the Tyrells with paranoid passion, which they know. Public sentiment regarding Lannisters is at an all-times low, their armies are spent, remaining forces away from King's Landing, and the land is full of pretenders. It would be logical for Tyrells to cut their losses and ditch the Lannisters like they ditched the Baratheons. Cersei would be a useful scapegoad and a meaty bone to throw to the High Septon in exchange for absolution of Margaery's own sins.

As for throne legitimacy, it will probably take a back seat to political expediency for all parties involved. If Tyrells ally with the Church, they will be powerful enough to assume the rule regardless of bloodlines. Littlefinger and the Boltons will go with the flow (both have other issues to deal with), the Iron Islands and Stannis are in open rebellion anyway, so the Tyrells won't be actually losing anything except the alliance with Lannisters, and even that can be salvaged by making a deal with some cadet Lannisters in exchange for them keeping Casterly Rock.

[Inquisitor Glokta]

If Cersei is found guilty, then Tommen is officially illegitimate. Margaery is married to someone who has no claim to the Iron Throne. That's not what the Tyrells want.

The Tyrells want at least the appearance of legitimacy for their government. They don't want it to be an overt military dictatorship.

And what is the High Sparrow's contengency plan, should Tommen be declared a bastard? Who would rule the Seven Kingdoms? Who would take the IT?

Stannis is worshiping a red demon, so he's off the table

edit: I can't be the High Sparrows notion, to send the kingdom, yet into another war, after the war of the 5 kings...

[SeanF]

And what is the High Sparrow's contengency plan, should Tommen be declared a bastard? Who would rule the Seven Kingdoms? Who would take the IT?

Stannis is worshiping a red demon, so he's off the table

edit: I can't be the High Sparrows notion, to send the kingdom, yet

into another war, after the war of the 5 kings...

Good question. He's unlikely to want a Targaryen. Maybe a theocratic republic?

[Jon of Elsewhere]

Long shot here, but since Margery and Cersie's claims contradict could the trial be held between those two at the Sparrow's behest? Could a timely arrival of Loras, who (Suprise!) wasn't that badly injured, mean two kingsguardmen face off reppresenting the two queens. A rematch of Loras vs. the Mountain?

Spoiler alert... Loras dies

[protar]

Good question. He's unlikely to want a Targaryen. Maybe a theocratic republic?

I'd actually say the High Sparrow is quite likely to side with Aegon. Providing he's real (though I don't think he is), he's the legitimate heir to the throne, and the only claimant who worships the 7 and isn't corrupt. The only problem is the whole incest stuff and a true Aegon VI both wouldn't be the result of incest, and would probably be marrying Arianne instead of a relative.

[Inquisitor Glokta]

I'd actually say the High Sparrow is quite likely to side with Aegon. Providing he's real (though I don't think he is), he's the legitimate heir to the throne, and the only claimant who worships the 7 and isn't corrupt. The only problem is the whole incest stuff and a true Aegon VI both wouldn't be the result of incest, and would probably be marrying Arianne instead of a relative.

Yeah i guess Aegon is the only option for the faith. This will be interesting siege of KL, if it comes to that ;)

[SeanF]

It's unlikely that Aegon and his backers would take kindly to the Faith Militant, or their conducting trials. And, a mysoginist like the High Sparrow would detest Arianne.

[Inquisitor Glokta]

It's unlikely that Aegon and his backers would take kindly to the Faith Militant, or their conducting trials. And, a mysoginist like the High Sparrow would detest Arianne.

I guess, but not if Tyene takes really good care of him ;)

[protar]

It's unlikely that Aegon and his backers would take kindly to the Faith Militant, or their conducting trials. And, a mysoginist like the High Sparrow would detest Arianne.

Well I never said that Aegon would like the High Sparrow in return. But war makes for strange bedfellows after all. This would hardly be the first time in the series that people who dislike each other have teamed up. Certainly out of all the claimants to the throne Aegon is the least detestable to the High Septon. All the other claimants are heathens except for the Lannisters who are sinners.

[SeanF]

I guess, but not if Tyene takes really good care of him ;)

That would be very funny, particularly if he got caught out.