mrunderhill Posted June 18, 2013 Share Posted June 18, 2013 The trial is about the faith getting power. They don't want to side with a faction who isn't devout in worshiping the Faith, unless the High Sparrow isn't so devout as he claims. That would seriously disappoint me though I see a lot of people saying that. In any case, even if the High Sparrow does just want power, he's not going to get that from the Lannisters. If Cersei is let free then she'll probably have him assassinated and certainly won't be giving him any power. If Cersei is found guilty Tommen loses his legitimacy and any power the Faith gains by siding with him is gone. There's no way I can see that the High Sparrow can get anything out of siding with the Lannisters any more. Not a doubt in my mind that he'll be siding with Aegon, with some ushering from Tyene.I agree the Faith is going to side with Aegon. Aegon unlike most Targaryens is not a child born of incest and is likely to marry Arianne, which is a close relation but legal. If Cersei wins her trial she is not going to just let her humiliation go, she is going to retaliate and attack the Faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Glokta Posted June 18, 2013 Share Posted June 18, 2013 They won`t fight her to bitter end. High Septon wants power, and he has a means to claim it. He will become Tommen`s Regent and therefore Faith will be united with Lannister/Tyrell aliance. The trial isn`t about justice, it`s about Faith taking the power.And now you seem to be forgetting Mace Tyrell, who has Randyl Tarly with a host in KL.How would the High Sparrow usurp Mace Tyrell's position? With Tywin/Kevan and Cersei almost out of the picture he will take regency ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted June 18, 2013 Share Posted June 18, 2013 The trial is about the faith getting power. They don't want to side with a faction who isn't devout in worshiping the Faith, unless the High Sparrow isn't so devout as he claims. That would seriously disappoint me though I see a lot of people saying that. In any case, even if the High Sparrow does just want power, he's not going to get that from the Lannisters. If Cersei is let free then she'll probably have him assassinated and certainly won't be giving him any power. If Cersei is found guilty Tommen loses his legitimacy and any power the Faith gains by siding with him is gone. There's no way I can see that the High Sparrow can get anything out of siding with the Lannisters any more. Not a doubt in my mind that he'll be siding with Aegon, with some ushering from Tyene.Not the faith, then The Faith. It`s about institution getting power, not religious belief. Religion has always been excuse in history, for various cardinals, bishops etc... And here we`ll see the same. Cersei will be pushed aside, and after being disgraced, she will have to step back. She will play the Game of her own, but High Septon will have all the power. He isn`t nearly as pious as he appears. Behind all that faith, is a thirst for power. He won`t side with uncontrollable King that will most likely dismantle his army, he will side with one he can control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twenty of House Goodmen Posted June 18, 2013 Share Posted June 18, 2013 Well, Aegon marrying both Arianne and Margaery would certainly be interesting. I have always felt that marrying Arianne would not be in his best interest since he should already expect the loyalty of the Martells. Unfortunately for him, it's most likely to happen. I imagine him marrying a Martell and a Tyrell would be a disaster in the making when it comes to succession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted June 18, 2013 Share Posted June 18, 2013 And now you seem to be forgetting Mace Tyrell, who has Randyl Tarly with a host in KL.How would the High Sparrow usurp Mace Tyrell's position? With Tywin/Kevan and Cersei almost out of the picture he will take regency ;)Randyl isn`t in KL, he is marching towards KL. High Septon will find a way to negotiate with Mace. It`s all just convenient for all of them. Faith recognizing Tommen and Margaery as the Queen, Mace becoming Hand, High Septon Regent... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrunderhill Posted June 18, 2013 Share Posted June 18, 2013 Not the faith, then The Faith. It`s about institution getting power, not religious belief. Religion has always been excuse in history, for various cardinals, bishops etc... And here we`ll see the same. Cersei will be pushed aside, and after being disgraced, she will have to step back. She will play the Game of her own, but High Septon will have all the power. He isn`t nearly as pious as he appears. Behind all that faith, is a thirst for power. He won`t side with uncontrollable King that will most likely dismantle his army, he will side with one he can control.Religion has also been an avenue for those, who are truly pious. In this story alone we have Baelor the Blessed, who is as pious as they come, Melisandre or even Damphair. In the latter two we see their thoughts and know they are genuinely pious people. The High Septon may not be as pious a she seems, but that does not have to be the case. Not everybody wants power for the sake of power.Not that I think it will matter, Cersei is likely to strike the Faith first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
protar Posted June 18, 2013 Author Share Posted June 18, 2013 Not the faith, then The Faith. It`s about institution getting power, not religious belief. Religion has always been excuse in history, for various cardinals, bishops etc... And here we`ll see the same. Cersei will be pushed aside, and after being disgraced, she will have to step back. She will play the Game of her own, but High Septon will have all the power. He isn`t nearly as pious as he appears. Behind all that faith, is a thirst for power. He won`t side with uncontrollable King that will most likely dismantle his army, he will side with one he can control.Religious figures can be corrupt but that's not necessarily the case. It would be much more interesting to me if the High Sparrow was genuinely devout. It would open up more possibilities i.e aiding Aegon's conquest than if he were corrupt i.e another 1000 pages of Lannister supremacy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted June 18, 2013 Share Posted June 18, 2013 Religious figures can be corrupt but that's not necessarily the case. It would be much more interesting to me if the High Sparrow was genuinely devout. It would open up more possibilities i.e aiding Aegon's conquest than if he were corrupt i.e another 1000 pages of Lannister supremacy.I am not discussing here what would be more interesting for you, or me, or anyone as for that matter. It just takes to see Cersei`s walk of penance to realize how much of religious devotion is there, and how much of power thirst. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
protar Posted June 18, 2013 Author Share Posted June 18, 2013 I am not discussing here what would be more interesting for you, or me, or anyone as for that matter. It just takes to see Cersei`s walk of penance to realize how much of religious devotion is there, and how much of power thirst.What does the Walk of Shame have to do with the Sparrows piousness or lack of it? If he's corrupt it's a power show, if he's a misogynistic religious fanatic it's the logical punishment for him to choose. The Walk of Punishment means nothing in regards to whether or not he is sincere or corrupt. I'm not seeing any evidence for him being less fanatical than he appears. He wants power, but for his Gods not for himself imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted June 18, 2013 Share Posted June 18, 2013 What does the Walk of Shame have to do with the Sparrows piousness or lack of it? If he's corrupt it's a power show, if he's a misogynistic religious fanatic it's the logical punishment for him to choose. The Walk of Punishment means nothing in regards to whether or not he is sincere or corrupt. I'm not seeing any evidence for him being less fanatical than he appears. He wants power, but for his Gods not for himself imo.Then he is even more dangerous. His excuse are his Gods, and every foul thing he does is in their name. He is Melisandre 2.0, but with army and much greater faith. The walk of shame is a great indicator of what type of man he is. Go through those chapters and you`ll see that Cersei`s walk of shame was just a slap to the Crown and clear message to everyone that Faith is first then everyone else. You think any Targaryen will like that order of things? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
protar Posted June 18, 2013 Author Share Posted June 18, 2013 Then he is even more dangerous. His excuse are his Gods, and every foul thing he does is in their name. He is Melisandre 2.0, but with army and much greater faith. The walk of shame is a great indicator of what type of man he is. Go through those chapters and you`ll see that Cersei`s walk of shame was just a slap to the Crown and clear message to everyone that Faith is first then everyone else. You think any Targaryen will like that order of things? No.And your point is? I don't think anybody would like that order of things. But from the POV of the Faith, Aegon is the only viable candidate and from Aegon's POV it would be idiotic to turn down such a powerful ally, which not only fields a few thousand soldiers but also commands the love of the smallfolk.So they'll ally to win KL and then go to scheming and grumbling about each other. No where did I say I think it will be a friendly alliance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted June 18, 2013 Share Posted June 18, 2013 And your point is? I don't think anybody would like that order of things. But from the POV of the Faith, Aegon is the only viable candidate and from Aegon's POV it would be idiotic to turn down such a powerful ally, which not only fields a few thousand soldiers but also commands the love of the smallfolk.So they'll ally to win KL and then go to scheming and grumbling about each other. No where did I say I think it will be a friendly alliance.My point is that High Septon wants to be at the top of hierarchy, and all the Kings want the same. The thing is Tommen is the only one that can give that to him. Not Stannis, Dany or King in the North, not even a boy who knows history, and most likely has allies who understand how dangerous armed Faith is. The only one that allows Faith to become more powerful than ever before is Tommen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
protar Posted June 18, 2013 Author Share Posted June 18, 2013 My point is that High Septon wants to be at the top of hierarchy, and all the Kings want the same. The thing is Tommen is the only one that can give that to him. Not Stannis, Dany or King in the North, not even a boy who knows history, and most likely has allies who understand how dangerous armed Faith is. The only one that allows Faith to become more powerful than ever before is Tommen.I simply disagree with the assessment. I believe he wants to be more powerful, but whereas you seem to think that he wants it for personal gain, I believe he wants it for the glory of the Faith, so he can cleanse the 7Kdoms of heathens and sinners. So he's not going to do that by allying with heathens and sinners. Aegon is the only claimant who is viable in that regard. The Lannisters are corrupt, the northerners worship the Old Gods, Stannis R'hllor and the Ironborn the Drowned God.So yeah it seems we disagree on the fundamentals of the High Sparrow's motives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted June 18, 2013 Share Posted June 18, 2013 I simply disagree with the assessment. I believe he wants to be more powerful, but whereas you seem to think that he wants it for personal gain, I believe he wants it for the glory of the Faith, so he can cleanse the 7Kdoms of heathens and sinners. So he's not going to do that by allying with heathens and sinners. Aegon is the only claimant who is viable in that regard. The Lannisters are corrupt, the northerners worship the Old Gods, Stannis R'hllor and the Ironborn the Drowned God.So yeah it seems we disagree on the fundamentals of the High Sparrow's motives.Whether he does that for personal gain or glory of Seven, result is the same. He wants him or Faith at the top of food chain, and Tommen will allow him that. Not anyone else. His fanaticism or ambition, is all for colaborationg with whomever he has to. He is religious Machiavelli of ASOIAF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
protar Posted June 18, 2013 Author Share Posted June 18, 2013 Whether he does that for personal gain or glory of Seven, result is the same. He wants him or Faith at the top of food chain, and Tommen will allow him that. Not anyone else. His fanaticism or ambition, is all for colaborationg with whomever he has to. He is religious Machiavelli of ASOIAF.You're just repeating yourself now. I disagree with you. I don't think he is willing to ally with those he considers heathens to get power. Therefore Aegon is the only logical faction he can ally with imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted June 18, 2013 Share Posted June 18, 2013 You're just repeating yourself now. I disagree with you. I don't think he is willing to ally with those he considers heathens to get power. Therefore Aegon is the only logical faction he can ally with imo.Because you obviously don`t understand the point... Aegon will take his power, and Tommen can oly give him. But since we reached a dead end here, we can just agree to disagree on this one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
protar Posted June 18, 2013 Author Share Posted June 18, 2013 Because you obviously don`t understand the point... Aegon will take his power, and Tommen can oly give him.But since we reached a dead end here, we can just agree to disagree on this one...I don't see why you're so adamant that Aegon will not give the High Septon power. I'm not even saying he necessarily will, just that the High Septon will try to take that route. But Aegon is in a position to have Dorne, the Stormlands and traitorous Reach Lords on his side. So he's a viable claimant to support even purely from a power perspective.ETA: In any case this is only tangentially linked to Aegon's marriage prospects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naik2902 Posted June 18, 2013 Share Posted June 18, 2013 if aegon comes to know that dany cant conceive anymore and cant further the targaryen line then he will go for Arianne as his wife. but i dont think he will marry martell without dany's consent. he knows dany got dragons which makes her more powerful than him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Glokta Posted June 18, 2013 Share Posted June 18, 2013 Randyl isn`t in KL, he is marching towards KL. High Septon will find a way to negotiate with Mace. It`s all just convenient for all of them. Faith recognizing Tommen and Margaery as the Queen, Mace becoming Hand, High Septon Regent...You are wrong again OoTo quote from the wiki (don't have ADWD on me) A Dance with DragonsTarly's army was the first to reach King's Landing before his liege lord, Mace Tyrell. The Faith released Margaery and her cousins into his custody after Tarly swore a holy oath to return them for trial. To try and undo the damage Cersei did to the Tyrell/Lannister alliance, Kevan Lannister made Tarly the new Justicar (Master of Laws) on the King's small council. Kevan Lannister thought that Tarly is more dangerous than Mace Tyrell.Margaery was ONLY released because o Tarly's army, else she would still be imprisoned in the Sept of Baelor...edit:Which means, Randyll Tarly has got about 10k - 20k soldiers parked right outside of KL, does the Faith come even close in numbers? I would highly doubt it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted June 18, 2013 Share Posted June 18, 2013 You are wrong again OoCounting? :). How... I`ll leave it be.Yes, I made a mistake. I admit that. That`s the quality I am proud of having. Not many people would admit that :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.