The "Second" houses of Westeros- bane of long term peace?

[The last Greenseer]

Some of the threads on the forum have prompted me to think that the so called "Second" houses in Westeros, with all their envy and ambition, are notoriously prone to incite war and create an effing mess in the end! I have created 2 categories based on events in past and what I think will take place in near future:

Region Great House Second House Event

1. Indulged in open rebellion in past/present

North Starks Bolton Razing of Winterfell + Roose's betrayal

Riverlands Tullys Freys RW.

Westerlands Lannister Raynes Rains of Castamere!

Stormlands Barathreon Connigton? *Note1

Dorne Martells Yronwood Sided with Blackfyres against Martells

Iron Islands Harren Tullys **Rebelled and overthrew rule of Harren once he was smoked.

2. High-moderate risk of rebelling against their leige lords

Vale Arryn Corbrays/Royces Conspiring with LF to take away power from last remaining hier of Arryns

Reach Tyrells Tarly/Hightower Popularly suggested that they may side with fAegon.

*Note1: Although in this case Robert was the rebel, Connigtons would have hoped for supremacy in Stormlands after finishing off Baratheons, given JonCon was already hand of the king.

**Probably the weakest link here

If you take all of this into perspective, it makes me wonder if the infighting will ever stop! I mean every time, after the war is over, some or other house will take control of a region and again some other "Second" house will start cribbing. It is a never-ending loop. For this reason, I can't see how can there be ever-lasting peace in Westeros unless the Others screw everyone up badly or Dragons come flying and go bat$#it insane on anyone who rebels!

Please provide your feedback and thoughts!

[Erkan12]

North - Umber

East - Royce

West - Payne

Riverlands - Blackwood

Reach - Tarly

Iron islands - Blacktyde

Stormlands - Swann

[Corvo Attano]

A Summary of All the Secondary Houses in Westeros

North: Bolton - They will take any opportunity to rebel.

Vale: Royce - They are loyal to The Arryns, but Bronze Yohn isn't taking any of Littlefinger's s**t.

West: Formerly Reyne - Tywin knows how to deal with troublesome Vassals. after they were destroyed, its probably Lefford, Crakehall or Marbrand, but none of them can pose any real threat.

Riverlands: Frey - See Boltons. They will rebel at every opportunity.

Iron Islands: Harlaw - I get the impression that they were loyal, but would step in and rule if they felt that the Greyjoys were doing a bad job.

Stormlands: Swann - They seem to be pretty loyal.

Reach: Hightower - They tend to stay out of political affairs and wars, and generally are loyal to the Tyrells in other matters.

Dorne: Yronwood - Their relationship with the Martells is highly variable. Sometimes, they are completely loyal, but at other times they take every chance to undermine the Martells.

[otherbeef]

The Royce's aren't trying to take away power from the Arryns and are not conspiring with LF. They are conspiring against LF. They don't mean to dispose of Robert Arryn and are loyal people (wanted to help the Starks against Lysa's wishes, etc.)

[MostlyMoody]

Its just the nature of men. Unless White walkers kill everyone this shit will keep going on.

No Prince that was Promised or whatever will change that.

I am starting to think Littlefinger was right about chaos.

[TalalOfDorne]

So far, Yronwoods seem fairly loyal. They could have moved on from what happened with Oberyn after Quentyn was fostered there. He does mention that Lord Yronwood was like a second father to him.

Does that mean they wont seize an opportunity to rise in power? I don't know (I hope not though).

As for the Harlaws, they so far seem very loyal, but this does raise the question that if Balon had to marry a Harlaw, was it to ease a feud between the two houses? Or were they just that close?

[SJC]

A good topic and a good thought on the long-term destabilization potential of second houses.

Simply to play devil's advocate a bit, from the perspective of the Crown, one could see strong second houses as necessary to maintain peace and stability. In practice, if one of the great houses grows overly ambitious to the point of challenging the Crown, the Crown will have a ready local ally in the regional second house, and thereby retain an important foothold in the backyard of the challenging great house (and an easy replacement for Lord Paramount). In other words, because the second house is a threat to the great house and not (likely) to the Crown, having that threat in the mind of the great house can help the Crown maintain stability from a more kingdom-wide threat (a rebelllious great house). Obviously, it is not foolproof (see, e.g., Robert's Rebellion), but circumstances can always overwhelm the system.

Again, just a thought for discussion---perhaps the door swings both ways.

[locke and key]

Naturally, by having a system where there are different regions with different houses, with differing levels of power, and so naturally there will always be a second most powerful house( even if you destroy them a 3rd most powerful house will take their place) , due to the nature of this feudalistic system which leads to the game of thrones houses with more power will try to earn more, it's the fault of the feudalist system in westeros that this happens not the crown or the second houses themselves, the only way to solve this problem is through turning westeros to a democracy

[Fightbringer]

wouldnt say that second houses are the bane of peace, seeing as they often only rebel as a reaction to larger wars, and wars between first and second houses are often short. Also i'd like to raise a point about what qualifies as a second house, as there are examples of houses that could be argued to be the most powerful aside from their liege lords who don't try and win control over the entire kingdom (karstarks) and even try and help their liege lord in these wars (Manderly) Houses like Royce and Hightower seem to be the second most powerful in their kingdoms, and try and work for the best interests of their kingdom often or follow their lords

[Blede]

Reach Tyrells Tarly/Hightower Popularly suggested that they may side with fAegon.

That is only a theory. Houses Tarly and Hightower are historically loyal (the Hightower are the second most powerful, but they, again historically, keep to themselves and never fight for or against their liege lords), House Florent is the usually troublesome/ambitiouse one for the Reach.

The Royce's aren't trying to take away power from the Arryns and are not conspiring with LF. They are conspiring against LF. They don't mean to dispose of Robert Arryn and are loyal people (wanted to help the Starks against Lysa's wishes, etc.)

I think he means House Royce of the Gates of the Moon, a cadet branch of House Royce of Runestone. It's the one headed by Nestor Royce, father of Myranda and one of Littlefinger's staunchest supporters.

[Penguin king]

There's nothing special about these "second houses" most houses would rise up against their feudal masters if they were strong enough. Almost all houses are playing the game of thrones to some extent. Most nobles yearn to see their family improve their social standing. Sure there are exceptions, and some lords are genuinely loyal to their leige lords, but they;re pretty much the exception not the rule. Just look at how eager the lords of the Stormlands are to switch sides whenever the wind blows in a new direction.

[valtolin]

It has to be said that most of the "great houses" of the present age were once "second houses" who got in the first line by destroying the first in general and, in particular, by siding with the Targaryens in the War of Conquest. That's how Tyrells took the place of the Gardeners, how Baratheons took the place of the Storm Kings, how Tullys and Greyjoys took to place of Hoares. Only Starks', Arryns' and Martells' power predates the Conquest.

[David Selig]

The first tier Houses have been a much bigger bane on peace. All the wars in the recent history of Westeros have been caused by them and they keep backstabbing and rebelling against each other.

[Thomask]

The first tier Houses have been a much bigger bane on peace. All the wars in the recent history of Westeros have been caused by them and they keep backstabbing and rebelling against each other.

That is because the great houses has nothing to gain by rebellion. They have to defeat 7 other great houses to gain complete control of the kingdom. The secondary houses only have to defeat one. Well often more than one, but that's usually when they loose.

[Winterz]

Interesting....no one ever names House Sunderland for the Arryns. The Three Sisters are to House Arryn like The Twins are to House Tully, too much autonomy and shite..

[Davos' Middle Finger]

The various " second houses" only move against their overlords when they are in a position of weakness. Bolton and Frey took Robb out when it had already become clear he had lost his war, the Reynes rebelled during the reign of the weak, ineffectual Tytos Lannister, etc.

[otherbeef]

I think he means House Royce of the Gates of the Moon, a cadet branch of House Royce of Runestone. It's the one headed by Nestor Royce, father of Myranda and one of Littlefinger's staunchest supporters.

but in that case they would not be the second most powerful House in the Vale, they wouldn't even be the most powerful House with the Royce name.

[OberynBlackfyre]

Interesting enough...I forget which character said it (I believe Tyrion) that a Lord will always have bannermen that envy him at one point or another.