GRRM statement about the White Walkers and use of ice

[Lord Tyrion's Whore]

Just because they're wights doesn't mean they have to be standing up and killing everything in their path. Weren't the ones who attacked Bran supposedly "sleeping" too (sort of like sleeper agents)?

They seem to possess at least bits of intelligence.

The ones that attacked bran were laying in wait beneath the snow. Its possible that Othor and Flowers were laying in wait pretending to be dead, but then they crossed the wall, so...

[Lord Tyrion's Whore]

We have no idea what the Others were trying to accomplish the first time, but saying there's no point in erecting a barrier that would keep your forces in is besides the point if A: that's were they wanted to be (it's where they live, and where men can't), and B: it's an area larger than, or the size of, a place like Canada, or C: was necessary to give retreating forces time to escape while they stalled the onslaught of man.

Also, if they built said barrier and warded it, who's to say they didn't make it so they have a means to cross back over?

No, it still makes no sense to erect a barrier that only keeps your forces in, not enemies out. There'd be no reasonable purpose to it. Men cross through and around the wall with ease.

As for whether they have some sneaky means of crossing back over, that's just another unfounded assumption on top of the idea that they built the wall. All the evidence given in the books makes it seem pretty silly that they actually did so. You have to assume lots of things that aren't even suggested in the text to make the theory make any sense at all.

[kephv]

No, it still makes no sense to erect a barrier that only keeps your forces in, not enemies out. There'd be no reasonable purpose to it.

What was so unreasonable about the scenario I proposed?

As for whether they have some sneaky means of crossing back over, that's just another unfounded assumption on top of the idea that they built the wall. All the evidence given in the books makes it seem pretty silly that they actually did so. You have to assume lots of things that aren't even suggested in the text to make the theory make any sense at all.

The Others are the only ones shown to shape things with ice (swords, armor, and probably where they live they have structures), so I'm not sure how silly it is to assume they built the biggest ice structure of all.

[JonNonRegis]

No, it still makes no sense to erect a barrier that only keeps your forces in, not enemies out. There'd be no reasonable purpose to it. Men cross through and around the wall with ease.

Yeah. The argument in favor of the Wall having been built by men, for defense against the Others, is awfully strong.

1. Castles on south side.

2. Legends that say it was built by the First Men (Mormont says this outright in GoT)

3. Wights, including Coldhands, cannot cross it

4. Magic, in fact, is blocked by the Wall in general -- Ghost cannot sense Summer across it, and nor can Jon sense Ghost

5. Flat statements by GRRM that the Watch built the Wall over thousands of years

6. Existence of Black Gate, which is as old as the Wall and can only be opened by a member of the Watch

Conclusion: The First Men built the Wall as a defensive measure.

That the Others can make things out of ice is, in fact, tremendously significant, but not for this reason.

[Lord Tyrion's Whore]

Whats unreasonable is that, again, there's no reason to make a barrier that only works to your own detriment, since only your own forces can't cross it. Men can and do. They also sail around it, frequently. We know even back during the long night the men could sail, since they sailed to Westeros in the first place. If they wanted to eradicate the Others, it would be silly of them to just shrug their shoulders because a wall popped up (which apparently they tunneled through easily too, unless you think the Others also built the gates, making it even easier for men to waltz through the barrier that only works against the others).

No, the others aren't the only ones who shape things with ice. People shape things with ice, including the wall, which the Night's Watch has been heightening for thousands of years according to their own records.

[Luna Plath]

Wasn't there an original Ice (the sword, not the substance) that was lost/destroyed somehow? And the modern Ice (the Valyrian steel one) was a replacement?

I could be remembering it incorrectly but maybe the original one was made of literal ice, hence the name. But I could be mis-remembering the part about there being more than one sword called Ice.

[Rose of Ice]

The humans (Jon of all people) end up bringing the horrific Long Night upon themselves because they know nothing.

That just gave me chills.

Seriously - pun (sort of) not intended.

[kephv]

Whats unreasonable is that, again, there's no reason to make a barrier that only works to your own detriment, since only your own forces can't cross it.

This is assuming that it was always the case. Obviously, walls aren't erected unless they're of some use.

Men can and do. They also sail around it, frequently. We know even back during the long night the men could sail, since they sailed to Westeros in the first place. If they wanted to eradicated the Others, it would be silly of them to just shrug their shoulders because a wall popped up (which apparently they tunneled through easily too, unless you think the Others also built the gates, making it even easier for men to waltz through the barrier that only works against the others).

Might as well argue with the Chinese against the futility of their Great Wall -- it could be passed at points so why bother? It doesn't have to be an absolute barrier for it to be effective -- nothing can be -- but it is very well effective at stopping a massive land army from marching right into your lands. Furthermore, it gives them the advantage of better pinpointing where an attack will come from when it happens, ensuring they're ready for it -- not to mention, it also ensures that it would be closer to their home lands.

And what you say could very well apply to the men who supposedly built it as well: why build a structure that could easily be bypassed at certain points (dig under, sail around it, whatever)? Also, why build it out of ice, the one substance which your opponents have a great knowledge of and are experts at shaping?

[Lord Tyrion's Whore]

Yes, obviously walls aren't erected unless they're of some use, making it far more likely the wall wasn't erected by the Others.

Yes, the wall can be breached from either side. The big benefit of it is its magical property, which only works to the Others' detriment. The great wall of china analogy is silly because the great wall of china isn't a barrier that can't be crossed by chinese troops but can be crossed by their enemies. The Wall only keeps their forces out of the south, so its silly to think its there for their benefit.

Why build a wall out of ice? Its there in plentiful supply. Rather harder to get 700 feet of stone 300 leagues wide. Whats more ridiculous is why men would erect castles on the far side of the wall to house men to man it and defend it against the Others if the Others raised it with their icy abilities, since it would only stand to reason that they could open it with their icy abilities too. The reason they can't, of course, is because its magically warded against them, because it was built to keep them out. Its the only logical conclusion, given the text.

[Night'sQueen]

We have no idea what the Others were trying to accomplish the first time, but saying there's no point in erecting a barrier that would keep your forces in is besides the point if A: that's where they wanted to be (it's where they live, and where men can't), and B: it's an area larger than, or the size of, a place like Canada, or C: was necessary to give retreating forces time to escape while they stalled the onslaught of man.

Also, if they built said barrier and warded it, who's to say they didn't make it so they have a means to cross back over?

The Wall could have been built by the First Men, the CotF and the Others in cooperation as part of an agreement to keep everybody in their respective places. The Others bring the knowledge of how to build it, the CotF have the knowledge of how to ward it so no one who shouldn't pass will and the First Men agree to man it.

The First Men did make a truce with the CotF at one point and then the Andals came and destroyed it.

[Lord Tyrion's Whore]

The Wall could have been built by the First Men, the CotF and the Others in cooperation as part of an agreement to keep everybody in their respective places. The Others bring the knowledge of how to build it, the CotF have the knowledge of how to ward it so no one who shouldn't pass will and the First Men agree to man it.

The First Men did make a truce with the CotF at one point and then the Andals came and destroyed it.

But the wall doesn't keep men in their respective place. They cross it willy nilly. They go through the gates. They go around it. Its only a one way barrier, that way being toward the south, and specifically against the Others. And we know men have the knowledge to build it since they've been building it up for thousands of years. And why would the Others let men guard the wall if its supposed, even in part, to keep men out of the north? Which it hasn't done, by the way, since there's thousands upon thousands of wildlings that have been living up there forever.

[Night'sQueen]

As I just posted in another thread on this topic which I believe is relevant to the Others ability to build:

When Bran sees visions with the help of BR/3EC during his coma, he sees "beyond the curtain" at the end of the world.

Bran looked down. There was nothing below him now but snow and cold and death, a frozen wasteland where jagged blue-white spires of ice waited to embrace him. They flew up at him like spears. He saw the bones of a thousand other dreamers impaled upon their points. He was desperately afraid.

I have always thought the spires sounded like part of Other-made structures.

[AreoAxeman]

The argument for the COTF being somehow involved with the others is intriguing. I like the idea of the COTF creating them in the fight against humans, only to find that they're unable to control them. This binds the COTF to the human cause against a now common enemy. I highly doubt the others created the wall though. As coldhands says, the wall is steeped in old powerful magic and he is unable to pass through. If this is the case, it seems strange to me that the others would create a barrier that staves off wights (their army) if not themselves as well...

[Night'sQueen]

But the wall doesn't keep men in their respective place. They cross it willy nilly. They go through the gates. They go around it. Its only a one way barrier, that way being toward the south, and specifically against the Others. And we know men have the knowledge to build it since they've been building it up for thousands of years.

They don't go to the LOAW, they are like a border patrol.

I am not prepared to argue all of the intricacies of how/why this may work. It's a kernel of a theory based on the two interesting threads that have popped up today regarding the Others and their ice technology.

[kephv]

Yes, obviously walls aren't erected unless they're of some use, making it far more likely the wall wasn't erected by the Others.

Yes, the wall can be breached from either side. The big benefit of it is its magical property, which only works to the Others' detriment. The great wall of china analogy is silly because the great wall of china isn't a barrier that can't be crossed by chinese troops but can be crossed by their enemies.

How would it only be to their detriment? It's a huge wall that offers a massive defensive advantage -- against magic and might. Remember Jon's battle at the top of the Wall in Storm? Switch it around and its effectiveness becomes obvious. That they can no longer send their wights across isn't an issue if they weren't planning on returning anyway, and if it stopped any magic they could send against them (wargs, their own wights - coldhand types - and whatnot).

And the Others aren't defenseless without their wights, far from it.

Why build a wall out of ice? Its there in plentiful supply. Rather harder to get 700 feet of stone 300 leagues wide.

I'm no expert but I would assume working with ice would be much harder than stone, especially if men had no prior knowledge of building with such -- which they don't seem to have (where are the ice castles?).

Whats more ridiculous is why men would erect castles on the far side of the wall to defend it against the Others if the Others raised it with their icy abilities, since it would only stand to reason that they could open it with their icy abilities too.

Castle's might not have always been there.

The reason they can't, of course, is because its magically warded against them, because it was built to keep them out. Its the only logical conclusion, given the text.

Not so. If the Others built it with the intention to eventually retreat for good and all into the icy wastes of the north, then there'd never be a reason to.

[Lord Tyrion's Whore]

They don't go to the LOAW, they are like a border patrol.

I am not prepared to argue all of the intricacies of how/why this may work. It's a kernel of a theory based on the two interesting threads that have popped up today regarding the Others and their ice technology.

I think the fact that others make weapons and armor out of ice and the fact that the wall is made out of ice are needlessly conflated. Building a wall is nothing like building magical ice armor. Its just hunks of ice stacked one on top of the other. No special technology required, since the Night's Watch has been doing it for thousands of years.

[Morienthar]

How would it only be to their detriment? It's a huge wall that offers a massive defensive advantage -- against magic and might. Remember Jon's battle at the top of the Wall in Storm? Switch it around and its effectiveness becomes obvious. That they can no longer send their wights across isn't an issue if they weren't planning on returning anyway, and if it stopped any magic they could send against them (wargs, their own wights - coldhand types - and whatnot).

And the Others aren't defenseless without their wights, far from it.

I'm no expert but I would assume working with ice would be much harder than stone, especially if men had no prior knowledge of building with such -- which they don't seem to have (where are the ice castles?).

Castle's might not have always been there.

Not so. If the Others built it with the intention to eventually retreat for good and all into the icy wastes of the north, then there'd never be a reason to.

1.The Other's going away wasn't a strategic retreat they were driven back.

2.Most likely the knowledge of the First Men is lost.

3.Night Fort is said to be over 7000 years old.

4.Add to that the fact that the Wall was built after the others disappeared.

[Lord Tyrion's Whore]

Its only to their detriment because it is only warded against their own troops. Its silly to make a wall that only stops you, not your enemy. If it was just a regular wall meant to impede land forces, why ward it against your own troops? Its silly.

Again, men obviously have the knowledge of how to erect an ice wall, as they've been doing it for thousands of years according to Watch records. There's no reason to build an ice castle, an exceedingly smaller structure that is more practically built of stone, which is more feasible than building a 300 league wide, 700 foot tall wall out of stone.

Of course the castles weren't always there. Men built them to garrison troops to defend the wall, which was being erected over thousands of years by the Night's watch, according to the books and the books author.

Even if they had no intention of ever going south again, there'd be no logical reason to build a structure magically warded against them. Its totally silly.

[yolkboy]

4.Add to that the fact that the Wall was built after the others disappeared.

How did the Night's King marry with an Other, then?

[Morienthar]

How did the Night's King marry with an Other, then?

It was one Other,not an entire army of them,maybe a runaway or an infiltrator.

99% of the Other's were gone after the Long Night ended with the War of Dawn.