GRRM statement about the White Walkers and use of ice

[kephv]

Its only to their detriment because it is only warded against their own troops. Its silly to make a wall that only stops you, not your enemy. If it was just a regular wall meant to impede land forces, why ward it against your own troops? Its silly.

That's not the case -- it's warded against all magic it seems.

Again, men obviously have the knowledge of how to erect an ice wall, as they've been doing it for thousands of years according to Watch records. There's no reason to build an ice castle, an exceedingly smaller structure that is more practically built of stone, which is more feasible than building a 300 league wide, 700 foot tall wall out of stone.

They've been adding to an existing structure for years, which is different from building the base foundation and wards on it. Also, I was more thinking the defenses on the castles, the walls and such -- how come they aren't ice?

Of course the castles weren't always there. Men built them to garrison troops to defend the wall, which was being erected over thousands of years by the Night's watch, according to the books and the books author.

The history is questionable at best -- see Jaime's chapter in Dance. As for GRRM saying that the NW built it, if this is the case I assume he wouldn't want to spoil the assumption himself, so there's a good reason to say as much.

Even if they had no intention of ever going south again, there'd be no logical reason to build a structure magically warded against them. Its totally silly.

What's magically warded could possibly be unwarded.

1.The Other's going away wasn't a strategic retreat they were driven back.

Being driven back could very well turn into a strategic retreat if they made it behind a huge wall of ice. Besides, what we know of the long night comes from legends written by the victors. I wonder what the Others' account would look like?

3.Night Fort is said to be over 7000 years old.

Could be. And it could be the Wall is 7100 years old.

[Lady Flandrensis]

Thus meaning the wall has no strategic advantage towards them. And if they didn't, since they control Ice, they can simply bypass it with their crafting/magic. I can see a black future for the NW.

If they can transmogrify ice, they can create creatures as well- perhaps the legendary huge spiders they rode?

[Lord Tyrion's Whore]

You can say its warded against "all magic" but its the Others' troops that can't cross it. That's its strategic value. Men can cross it. Others, or at the very least, their undead troops, can't. If the Others set it up that way then they're not terribly bright.

If men could have added to the wall over thousands of years, there's no reason to think they couldn't have founded it. As for who warded it against the Others, we don't know, since no one's shown that ability. If I had to guess I'd say CotF, but men also possessed magical arts that have been lost.

As for why the walls around the castles aren't ice, there are no walls around the castles. They are just housing for the men. They have no defenses. The Wall is their defense, as is clearly stated in the books, and its made of ice. If they wanted to erect castle walls, though, it would make sense to erect them from stone, since they don't need 700 foot tall, 300 league wide walls, which The Wall is, which is why it was made of ice.

You can say the history is questionable, but its silly to make an assumption wholly unsupported by text, while tossing out evidence against it which actually appears in the text just to support your theory. And sure, GRRM might just be a liar, but he usually tries to avoid lying outright when dodging answers which would spoil something.

Sure, it could be un-warded, but there'd be no reason to ward it in the first place against themselves. Its ridiculous.

[kephv]

You can say its warded against "all magic" but its the Others' troops that can't cross it. That's its strategic value.

This is again assuming that it was never of strategic value for them. They might not have had armies of wights (might not have, since the children seem to be able to make their own), but they do have wargs, and possibly other things they could've used against them.

Also, it's still quite possible that they warded it after the Others completely abandoned it.

If men could have added to the wall over thousands of years, there's no reason to think they couldn't have founded it. As for who warded it against the Others, we don't know, since no one's shown that ability. If I had to guess I'd say CotF, but men also possessed magical arts that have been lost.

I didn't say they couldn't have -- I said there's another more likely candidate, in my opinion.

As for why the walls around the castles aren't ice, there are no walls around the castles. They are just housing for the men. They have no defenses. The Wall is their defense, as is clearly stated in the books, and its made of ice. If they wanted to erect castle walls, though, it would make sense to erect them from stone, since they don't need 700 foot tall, 300 league wide walls.

Think further back. Why not castles near the wall (not touching it)? Those might have been the first to go up for protection while they built the Wall.

You can say the history is questionable, but its silly to make an assumption wholly unsupported by text, while tossing out evidence against it which actually appears in the text just to support your theory.

It's not wholly unsupported. Again, the Others are the only ones shown to shape and build with ice. I'm not sure it's much of a leap to assume they built the biggest Ice structure of all to keep people out of their territory.

Sure, it could be un-warded, but there'd be no reason to ward it in the first place against themselves. Its ridiculous.

I gave reasons, ones that weren't ridiculous, why they could've warded it. But what it boils down to is this: the Others aren't the only ones who know magic.

And what magic they work they probably also know how to unwork, if the time ever came when they wanted to.

[Lord Tyrion's Whore]

Wargs can cross the wall, though. They have done on multiple occasions during the story. The connection is broken if the warg is on one side and the animal is on the other, yes, but its still no barrier to both crossing. It is a barrier to the Others, or at least to their undead troops, crossing. Its a barrier against them, not Men, who cross it willy nilly. Its a ridiculous defense if its defending against them.

Yes, its possible the Wall was warded against the Others after the Others built it. Thats the only way the theory makes even a little bit of sense. But there'd be no reason at all to think the Others had to have been the ones to build a plain old non-magical ice wall, since we know that men have the ability to have done so, having added to it over thousands of years. The only thing special about it is its magical properties. That means the Others aren't a "more likely canditate" at all.

There's no reason to build ANY castles ANYWHERE out of ice. The only reason the Wall is built of ice is because its more convenient to erect giant mammoth ice wall in the arctic stretching across a continent than a giant mammoth stone wall. A castle, even in the arctic, is not a giant mammoth continent spanning structure, so there's no lacking for the stone to erect it. I don't know how this isn't clear.

Again, they aren't the only ones known to build with ice, as men have been building up the wall for thousands of years. They are the only ones known to build armor and weapons out of ice. Thats all they're only known for. And the structure doesn't keep people out of their territory, as people move through and around it at will, and there's countless thousands already living on the north side any way. Its only there to keep them out of the south.

No, the others aren't the only ones who know magic. They also aren't the only ones who can build a wall out of ice. So, why on earth should they be the most likely candidate to have built a magical wall of ice, rather than the more obvious candidate, the one that can actually pass it, the one that's recorded to have built it, recorded to have heightened it over the centuries, and recorded to have manned it in defense of the south against them?

[kephv]

Wargs can cross the wall, though. They have done on multiple occasions during the story. The connection is broken if the warg is on one side and the animal is on the other, yes, but its still no barrier to both crossing. It is a barrier to the Others, or at least to their undead troops, crossing. Its a barrier against them, not Men, who cross it willy nilly. Its a ridiculous defense if its defending against them.

I don't remember wargs crossing the wall. The important point is that they can't seem to maintain their connection past the wall. You can ignore this - and other possibilities - if you want, but the point is the Others aren't the only ones with magic.

Yes, its possible the Wall was warded against the Others after the Others built it. Thats the only way the theory makes even a little bit of sense. But there'd be no reason at all to think the Others had to have been the ones to build a plain old non-magical ice wall, since we know that men have the ability to have done so, having added to it over thousands of years. The only thing special about it is its magical properties. That means the Others aren't a "more likely canditate" at all.

Objects don't have to have wards to be effective. The Others swords and armor are effective and I'm not sure how magical they are besides what holds them together.

There's no reason to build ANY castles ANYWHERE out of ice. The only reason the Wall is built of ice is because its more convenient to erect giant mammoth ice wall in the arctic stretching across a continent than a giant mammoth stone wall. A castle is not a giant mammoth continent spanning structure, so there's no lacking for the stone to erect it. I don't know how this isn't clear.

But above you said that the only reason the wall is special is because of the magic. Why wouldn't that be of use elsewhere? And I'm still not sure it is easier, especially with the risk of it melting.

Again, they aren't the only ones known to build with ice, as men have been building up the wall for thousands of years. They are the only ones known to build armor and weapons out of ice. Thats all they're only known for.

Men have been adding to it and doing repairs on it. Setting the foundations and wards would be something that men haven't shown proficiency at.

And the structure doesn't keep people out of their territory, as people move through and around it at will, and there's countless thousands already living on the north side any way. Its only there to keep them out of the south.

You're ignoring time here again.

No, the others aren't the only ones who know magic. They also aren't the only ones who can build a wall out of ice. So, why on earth should they be the most likely candidate to have built a magical wall of ice, rather than the more obvious candidate, the one that can actually pass it, the one that's recorded to have built it, recorded to have heightened it over the centuries, and recorded to have manned it in defense of the south against them?

What's obvious might only be so to distract from the truth -- plain misdirection. Also, you obviously have much more faith in the historical record than I do -- and, indeed, than what the characters in the story do.

[FoolishOwl]

The OP's found an interesting quote.

I'm surprised no one has pointed out that there has been a long-running discussion, effectively a forum-within-a-forum, detailing a set of theories called the Heresy. Among them are the idea that the Wall is not so much a defensive structure but a magical barrier that divides worlds, and that the Night Watch originally had a very different purpose. The idea that the Others originally built the Wall is quite compatible with the Heresy.

HERESY 50 is recommended as a starting point.

[Lord Tyrion's Whore]

Jon's a warg and Jon goes through and over the wall. Bran's a warg and bran goes under the wall. Wargs quite obviously can cross the wall, unlike Others, or at least their undead minions. No, the others aren't the only ones with magic, but they seem to be the only ones physically impeded from moving across the wall, or at least their undead minions, since we've never seen an other try to cross yet. Still, they're the only ones stopped by the wall, so it makes no sense for it to have been their making.

Of course objects don't have to have magic to be effective. However, if the wall was initally just an ice wall, there's absolutely no reason to think the Others are more likely to have built it than men, who obviously can build ice walls, having regularly heightened the Wall. The Others are therefore not a more likely candidate for building the wall than those who are actually recorded as having built, raised, maintained and guarded it.

The wall being or not being magical has nothing to do with why its made of ice. Its made of ice because its a gigantic arctic structure stretching across the continent, and there's a lot more ice in the arctic than stone. That is why its easier. Thats why its made of ice. As for why other castles aren't magically warded in various ways, that has nothing to do with this topic, but we know that at least one, Storm's End, is, which was erected around the same time, supposedly by the same guy.

I'm not ignoring time. The wall is no impediment to man. They move under it, through it, around it, and they live on both sides of it. The only thing it keeps out is the Others from the south.

Sure, it all might be misdirection. The whole book series might be a fever dream in Bran's head after falling from the tower. But there's no reason to assume it is, just like there's no reason to assume the Others built the wall.

[binga]

Yeah I don't buy this whole idea of the Others building the wall, seems like a bit of a reach. I think the others just use ice magic to build hives where they live. I think Jon and/or Bran will visit their headquarters so to speak. Benjen will be trapped there.

[kephv]

Jon's a warg and Jon goes through and over the wall. Bran's a warg and bran goes under the wall. Wargs quite obviously can cross the wall, unlike Others, or at least their undead minions. No, the others aren't the only ones with magic, but they seem to be the only ones physically impeded from moving across the wall.

Perhaps I wasn't clear -- it's the connection that's messed up by the wall. Obviously, Jon can walk through the wall himself.

Also, seems-to-be and 'are' is completely different. The Others haven't tried the Wall yet, as far as I'm aware. They seem to be content gathering their strength in the north, picking off Wildings.

Of course objects don't have to have magic to be effective. However, if the wall was initally just an ice wall, there's absolutely no reason to think the Others are more likely to have built it than men, who obviously can build ice walls, having regularly heightened the Wall. The Others are therefore not a more likely candidate for building the wall.

I've said this before but adding to the top is a bit different than setting the massive 300 mile wide spanning foundations. Fact is, the Others are experts at shaping ice -- indeed, they use it for offensive and defensive purposes -- so assuming they originally built such a massive ice structure is, in my opinion, just as likely, if not more so.

The wall being or not being magical has nothing to do with why its made of ice. Its made of ice because its a gigantic arctic structure stretching across the continent, and there's a lot more ice in the arctic than stone. That is why its easier. Thats why its made of ice. As for why other castles aren't magically warded in various ways, that has nothing to do with this topic, but we know that at least one, Storm's End, is, which was erected around the same time, supposedly by the same guy.

It's not in the arctic -- that's farther north. I suppose if they had the magic - and knew how to build with ice - it might have been easier to use, but they still would've had to do a massive amount of work to erect it. I see no reason why stone wouldn't have been easier, or as easy. Also, it still stands that it's made of ice -- something the Others are quite fond of and seem to know a lot about.

I'm not ignoring time. The wall is no impediment to man. They move under it, through it, around it, and they live on both sides of it. The only thing it keeps out is the Others from the south.

You are. As the entire premise is that they built it but aren't there anymore, and obviously men would have the time on their hands to work all that out in the thousands of years that they've had it to themselves.

But there's no reason to assume it is, just like there's no reason to assume the Others built the wall.

I've provided two good ones: the questionable historical record, the Others being ice working experts.

[Lord Tyrion's Whore]

Yes, we haven't seen the Others fail to cross the wall yet. The only force we know can't cross the wall is their army of wights. Its what makes it unlikely their masters the Others, built the wall.

If you can raise the wall, you can build the wall. There's nothing super-impossible about laying the first brick. The wall doesn't take super duper ice shaping ability. Its just a wall. We know men can build walls, and we know men can builld up ice walls, so there's no reason to think men can't build ice walls from scratch. In fact, we have far more evidence for people being able to build walls than for others, who we haven't seen build any structures at all. There's no reason to think they are more likely to have built The Wall just because their armor is made of ice.

Of course it took a massive amount of effort to build. It would have taken a massive amount of effort to build no matter what material they used. The material at hand, however, was ice, not stone, because that's what they're surrounded by in the far north, since you don't wish to call it the arctic. It would be much harder to gather the requisite amount of stone to erect such a structure. Thats why it was easier. I don't know why thats hard to understand.

There's no evidence in the book that the Wall was ever any more a hinderance to Man than it is now, so how am I ignoring time? Thats nonsense. Men can cross the wall, circumvent the wall, and live on either side of the wall. The wall is not a barrier for men, like it is for the others, so its silly to think the others built it instead of men.

Saying you don't believe the historical record is not a good reason for making up something completely different. That takes independent evidence. So your only reason is Others use ice. Thats it. But men use ice. We know they build with it, as they've been building up the wall for thousands of years, while we've never seen the Others build any walls out of anything. There's far less reason, therefore, to think the Others built the wall than that Men built the wall, even if you discount what the story says, and what the author claims.

Obviously we aren't going to agree, so I'll just let you have the last word. This theory makes no sense, though. Its not as silly as some theories on this forum, but its one of the sillier ones.

[Magic 8 Ball]

The wall can impede them in that they will have to climb it to go over it but.... The wall is warded and I think it has to do with "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell. The Nights Watch was formed at the same time the Wall was created and Winterfell too. The Nights Watch, so long as there are memebers there and loyal to their vows, the wall cannot be passed by the others. When it comes to Winterfell, perhaps the others can bring Down the wall itself if there is no STark in Winterfell. This is speculating but since the others cannot enter Bloodravens cave, because it is WARDED somehow, then there has to be some connection of sort.

Forgive me if I have my fake history wrong, but didn't the Nights Watch predate the construction of the wall? As in they were manning a series of forts with no wall for a time after the Long Night?

In which case, the notion that The Others built the wall is rendered somewhat preposterous.

[Leif]

The Others built the wall to keep Stannis out. That didn't work out too well. They're clearly not the brightest of creatures.

[The Bastard of Summer]

They can build Ice Dragons!!!!!!

[Ygrain]

It could simply be a part of their religion, like an animal sacrifice. It wouldn't surprise me if the WW view people as animals, sacrificing a human baby might not mean anymore to them than sacrificing calf's was to people in real world history (as disturbing a thought as that is). Based on Bran's weirwood vision where he saw a man having his throat cut before a heart tree, the Old God's religion certainly seemed to have a sacrificial aspect to it. If the WW follow a religion that has any similarities to that of the Old Gods, then sacrifice could plausibly be an aspect of it.

Or alternatively, since they only take male babies and we haven't seen any female WW, they could be subjecting the infants to some sort of ritual that turns them into White Walkers. That would be how they "reproduce". I also wouldn't be surprised if WW are essentially immortal ('the cold preserves'), only able to die if stabbed with dragonglass or valyrian steel.

Just some rampant speculation...

Not rampant in the least. What does one of Craster's wives say when she sees Sam and Gilly off? "Our sons will come for us."

As for the Wall: I think one aspect hasn't been mentioned here, and that's Mel's magic growing stronger at the Wall. I wonder why that should be so and if there is any connection to Mel being able to control Ghost.

[JonNonRegis]

You can see fairly easily that the Wall was built by men using the following reasoning:

1. Men can build ships. They have been building ships since at least the Dawn Age. That's what the Hightower in Oldtown is all about: warning ships.

2. Ships can sail around the Wall.

3. It's thus very doubtful the Others would erect a giant ice Wall, knowing perfectly well that men could simply sail around it.

4. It's even more doubtful they would give men a permit to create the Black Gate in the Wall, which only men can open. That gate also cannot have been added later; it is flatly stated to be as old as the Wall.

It is much more reasonable to suppose that the Others cannot build ships... they never have been able to... and Men knew that when they built the Wall.

(Anyone who thinks the Others are an advanced civilization should consider rethinking that, because they show no sign of advanced technology whatsoever. Their super-advanced transportation system, for instance, is dead animals. They seemingly haven't even invented the wheel. They are not Lex Luthors; they are gelid cretins.)

[FoolishOwl]

Tradition has it that the Wall was built with magic and is sustained by magic, and there's a strong reason to believe that's true: a structure even a small fraction of the scale of the Wall couldn't maintain that shape if it was constructed from ice. Look at glaciers: glaciers flow. Fissures and vertical breaks exist only temporarily.

It's difficult to miss that ice is a very strange choice for a building material. It's not stable. Unless you're actually in the arctic, it's not that plentiful. And, it seems awfully signficant that what's on the other side of that wall of ice are ice monsters who make weapons out of ice and who don't like fire. If you're trying to defend against ice monsters, wouldn't you think you'd want a stone wall, one that won't be damaged much by burning oil, flaming arrows, and so forth?

I think we're supposed to look at the Wall, and at some point, realize that the Wall doesn't make sense. Unless its original purpose is very different from what we've been told.

[shewolfofthenorth]

the white walkers built the wall

I've thought this very thing too. why would they make a 700 foot wall made of ice to keep out creatures that are essentially ice? I believe there is more to the wall that we have learn in the later books. If they truly wanted to keep out the Others wouldn't it make more sense for the wall to be imbued with dragonglass?

[Team_Rob]

Perhaps Bran The Builder was a powerfull skinchanger and greenseer which enables him to enlist The Others to build the wall.

[IRON BANK]

If the crack pot is consistent, then the white walkers build the wall to protect the cotf from the realms of men, and then the cotf make the deal to warg the wall so thier creations do not cross. However the men aren't satisfied or time forgets the men start to breed and travel beyond the wall. Now the WW who are on the other side of the wall have more humans to animate and also have more reason to cross the wall considering men have broken the pact. Once the wall falls it will be a free for all.