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Would Rhaegar have been a better father to Jon than Ned?


~DarkHorse~

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Obviously his children weren't his first priority in life

I honestly think Rhaegar would be pretty pissed off if after all that Jon isn't Visenya and therefore can't be Aegon's third head.

Ned and Cat raised their children differently to most of Westeros, noble children are tools to better their family status and name. There's no reason to why Rhaegar wouldn't feel the same way about his children, therefore he would see Jon as a mistake because he can't be Aegon's third head.

About Elia, she would probably be ok with him not affectionate, but not mean too.

Why would Elia be ok with it?

People need to seriously stop romanticising her into a Disney princess <_<

She would be just like Cat; indifferent and ignores Jon. Though I'm sure she'd have the chance to send Jon to the North when he turns 7

This is a tough one, mainly because if he had been raised by Rhaegar, Jon would not be Jon as he is today...and I think that some of Jon's best qualities come from modeling himself after Ned.

The simple answer to who just seems like the better father in general? It's hard to beat Ned.

:agree:

Jon wanting to be just like Ned and wanting to make him proud is why he is the man he is today :)

I think it would be a completely different story if Rhaegar raised him, especially if he favours his chosen prince over Jon because he wasn't born as Visenya

I am not saying Cat was inclined to be decent to Jon, but at the same time, I do think she was disrespectful towards him.

Basically, I am saying that Cat holds Jon's Bastard birth against him, while I do not think Elia would've . That is just my opinon, based on how much we know about her character

Catelyn was very decent to him, I don't know where you got the impression that she wasn't <_<

Everyone holds a bastard status against bastards! Grow up and face the reality of Westeros; Cat had no responsibility to show anything more than civil decency to Jon.

Why do people insist in making Elia this flawless, Disney princess?! Any good mother would be wary of Jon and any proud, noble woman would be furious that her husband's infidelities are dumped right in front of her!

Elia would treat Jon just how Cat treated him, and that should be good enough!

Back to topic: Rhaegar's already proven to be a crap father to his precious prophecy heads why people think he'd be nicer to the kid who doesn't even fit in the prophecy is beyond me :rolleyes:

Ned raised his children with love and acceptance; very different to the rest of Westeros who the majority only viewed their kids as tools to further their own goals.

So saying Rhaegar would be a better father is ridiculous

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Wow. Did I say its better for the child? And you say Im jumping into conclusions.

Huh? Your posts are pretty clear, the concern you have is that its unfair for the wife. You said it multiple times. Not once did you express any concerns for the even more innocent child. My personal feelings are that the parents need to be adults and if they decide to keep the kid around, treat the kid as one of their own. Thats why I blame Ned mostly for Cat's problems with Jon. Your arguments (twice in this thread) boil down to "the wife has no responsibility to that kid that was born from her husbands whoring". I think thats bullshit. First off, not all bastards are given birth by whores, second off it ignores the completely innocent one in the scenario- the child. Foster the kid somewhere, or if you are so offended, leave your husband.

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Huh? Your posts are pretty clear, the concern you have is that its unfair for the wife. You said it multiple times. Not once did you express any concerns for the even more innocent child. My personal feelings are that the parents need to be adults and if they decide to keep the kid around, treat the kid as one of their own. Thats why I blame Ned mostly for Cat's problems with Jon. Your arguments (twice in this thread) boil down to "the wife has no responsibility to that kid that was born from her husbands whoring". I think thats bullshit. First off, not all bastards are given birth by whores, second off it ignores the completely innocent one in the scenario- the child. Foster the kid somewhere, or if you are so offended, leave your husband.

Sigh, Once again you misinterpret me. I am in no way denying the childs' innocence. Yes, I have pointed out that a wife should not have to go through this, and I stand by it. I also said that the husband is the one who gets all the blame, and for some reason you keep saying that I accuse the innocent child.

And yes, the wife doesnt have any responsibility to the child (Notice how I didnt say its the childs fault). And infidelity is infidelity no matter who the mother is. And if you have read my earlier post I actually refer to medieval society where divorce is out of the question (Though I dont see why Ned couldnt have sent Jon some where else). Of course in a modern society it would be better as a woman can leave her husband if he wrongs her that way and wouldn't have to put up with him.

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Right because a woman in the Middle Ages with no rights, no say and is the property of her husband can leave him :rolleyes:

Maybe one with an extremely powerful father/family can. I mean the two examples we're talking about could have. Im sure Elia and Cat would have plenty of other prospects. But I am admittedly not up on Middle Age familial politics

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Sigh, Once again you misinterpret me. I am in no way denying the childs' innocence. Yes, I have pointed out that a wife should not have to go through this, and I stand by it. I also said that the husband is the one who gets all the blame, and for some reason you keep saying that I accuse the innocent child.

And yes, the wife doesnt have any responsibility to the child (Notice how I didnt say its the childs fault). And infidelity is infidelity no matter who the mother is. And if you have read my earlier post I actually refer to medieval society where divorce is out of the question (Though I dont see why Ned couldnt have sent Jon some where else). Of course in a modern society it would be better as a woman can leave her husband if he wrongs her that way and wouldn't have to put up with him.

Its obviously the dads fault, but if the bastard child lives under your roof, for whatever reason and the mother takes "no responsibility for the child" it is tantamount to faulting the child for his fathers actions.

ned clearly should have fostered Jon in Cat's eyes. Rightfully so because he refused to reveal the secret to his wife.

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I think that has a lot to do with the fact that Dany and Viserys are a way of getting revenge on the Lannisters.

Holding a grudge against the Targaryens is minuscule compared to the fact that Tywin had Elia raped and her and her children murdered.

If Elia had lived I highly doubt she would accept Jon with open arms, she's a proud noblewoman and Jon's an insult to her.

Thinking she has a duty to accept him is ridiculous <_<

Apart from theirs Oberyn has four and none of them were born when they were together so it makes all the difference

Yes because kidnapping a nobleman's daughter won't cause any problems :rolleyes:

And after that escapade he didn't even use his initiative and try to sue for peace. Yes, the whole thing was out of Rhaegar's hands <_<

Back to topic: Rhaegar's a crap father end of. Comparing him to Ned is ridiculous and laughable

Yeah, just blame everything on Rhaegar. That's so simple and easy that way. Rhaegar was still popular and loved and respected and he is still ten times more interesting and likable than Ned. Yes, Ned is the champion of honor, will he still be so, if R+L=/= J? Even that will be Rhaegar's fault, I bet... I never said it'd be Elia's duty to take in Rhaegar's bastard, I just don't think she would handle it the same way as Catelyn. Yes, Oberyn had four bastards aside from the daughters of Ellaria, that's exactly three more than the supposed bastards of Rhaegar. Besides, Oberyn's daughters were sort of under Ellaria's nose too, so it doesn't make much difference. An acceptable argument would be that Ellaria was no legally married wife of Oberyn, unlike Elia to Rhaegar... alas, it's me who has to bring this up. Whatever.

My original point is still the same: we don't know what kind of father Rhaegar would have been, but Jon is lucky, because Ned was a good father. End of story.

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Maybe one with an extremely powerful father/family can. I mean the two examples we're talking about could have. Im sure Elia and Cat would have plenty of other prospects. But I am admittedly not up on Middle Age familial politics

Hoster Tully would have sent Catelyn right back to Winterfell, and even if he magically welcomed her back that would require Catelyn to abandon her own children and never see them again.

Its obviously the dads fault, but if the bastard child lives under your roof, for whatever reason and the mother takes "no responsibility for the child" it is tantamount to faulting the child for his fathers actions.

Neither Catelyn or Elia would have been the mother, thus they don't have any responsibility.

This Catelyn infatuation is almost sickening. :ack: :ack: :ack: :ack: :ack:

What? Catelyn is awesome.

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Hoster Tully would have sent Catelyn right back to Winterfell, and even if he magically welcomed her back that would require Catelyn to abandon her own children and never see them again.

Neither Catelyn or Elia would have been the mother, thus they don't have any responsibility.

What? Catelyn is awesome.

That's shitty, and its my point. If there's a child growing up in the house and one of the parents is acting as if they have no responsibility it's the same thing as blaming the child and its not right. Especially if there are other kids in the house. If you think that they have no responsibility, that's pretty suspect because whether you like it or not, its hurting the innocent child

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Hoster Tully would have sent Catelyn right back to Winterfell, and even if he magically welcomed her back that would require Catelyn to abandon her own children and never see them again.

Neither Catelyn or Elia would have been the mother, thus they don't have any responsibility.

What? Catelyn is awesome.

My point exactly. She can do no wrong, no matter what.

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That's shitty, and its my point. If there's a child growing up in the house and one of the parents is acting as if they have no responsibility it's the same thing as blaming the child and its not right. Especially if there are other kids in the house. If you think that they have no responsibility, that's pretty suspect because whether you like it or not, its hurting the innocent child

Neither Catelyn or Elia would have been a parent to Jon, thus your argument has no merit.

My point exactly. She can do no wrong, no matter what.

Not believing she doesn't have a responsibility for Jon doesn't mean that she can do no wrong.

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I think that with Rhaegar, Jon would have heard a lot of prophecy stuff, but we really can't be sure. IMO Ned did a pretty good job of raising Jon, and Jon has become a character with a heavy sense of duty, because of Ned, and that is what makes him a good person. Ned never told Jon about his parentage, but how could he? That kind of information could start a civil war, getting Jon killed and possibly a few Starks. I think that Jon had a great father in Ned, probably better than Rhaegar.

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I agree. I really do hate when people use Elia's Dornishness to say that she was okay. We don't know that. Just because Oberyn does things doesn't mean his siblings will or can do them too. He is the second son of a powerful House with no responsibilities. Doran has always had to put the duty to his people first. Elia is a woman and a princess who would have been much more sheltered. She was also sick. and she had to go from a more lenient culture to a more conservative one so she wouldn't have as much freedom there. She would understand what is done and what is not done. And him taking another wife or lover and having a child would be seen as a slight in this more conservative culture. Prophecy or no. It is the perception that matters to these people.

Until GRRM says she was okay, we don't know.

Jon is a potential threat to her children with the North, Vale (Jon Arryn), and Riverlands(Brandon or Ned's in-laws ) presumably backing him. The Tyrells would go for Jon just to slight the Dornish. The only houses who would be up in the air are the Baratheons and Greyjoys. They wouldn't be of help.

With Rhaegar, I think that he would have put alot of weight and responsibility onto the shoulders of the children. The man has basically been telling people that his children would save the world. I mean how can you live up to something like that. I don't think he would take into account that his children are their own people and not his instruments to use to save the world.

Rhaegar would pull a Sarah Connor

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Easy. Ned is 10000 times better then that douchbag. Ned could be easily classified as the best father of westeros. Comparing Rheagar, who abandoned his wife and children for over one year on the mercy of a mad man, to Ned doesn't make any sense. Even Robert was a better man then Rheagar.

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Yeah, just blame everything on Rhaegar. That's so simple and easy that way. Rhaegar was still popular and loved and respected and he is still ten times more interesting and likable than Ned.

Butt hurt much?<_<

:lmao: as if! Rhaegar wasn't even half the man Ned Stark was

Yes, Ned is the champion of honor, will he still be so, if R+L=/= J? Even that will be Rhaegar's fault, I bet...

My problem with Rhaegar isn't R+L=J, it's the fact that:

A) he caused a war

B ) he left his wife and kids in the hands of his insane father

C) he clearly put some prophecy at a higher importance than his family

I never said it'd be Elia's duty to take in Rhaegar's bastard, I just don't think she would handle it the same way as Catelyn.

And how would Elia handle it?

By treating Jon like the hero he is

:bowdown:

Or

Treating him like her own, because Elia's flawless and wouldn't be wary for her children's inheritance and has no pride or self respect?

Yeah she would be so different to Cat :rolleyes:

My original point is still the same: we don't know what kind of father Rhaegar would have been

Well lets see Rhaegar's parenting skills:

1. He abandoned his kids

2. He left them with their insane grandfather

3. He didn't even insure their safety

4. He put a prophecy at a higher importance than them.

Yes we don't know enough about him :rolleyes:

And with that being said it's most likely he wouldn't want anything to do with Jon because he isn't Visenya

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Easy. Ned is 10000 times better then that douchbag. Ned could be easily classified as the best father of westeros. Comparing Rheagar, who abandoned his wife and children for over one year on the mercy of a mad man, to Ned doesn't make any sense. Even Robert was a better man then Rheagar.

You're such a Stark fanboy it's so amusing

And no, Robert was not a better man than Rhaegar.

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Even Robert was a better man then Rheagar.

I wouldn't go that far, Robert fathered 16 bastards and most of the were living in poverty. He didn't even give them a second glance, not even the twins Tywin killed in Casterly Rock!

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