The Last Hero tale by Old Nan foreshadows the deaths of ...

[Lost Melnibonean]

If everyone expects Rickon and Shaggy to die because of the standard Shaggydog Tale trope, isn't it far more likley that in a series known for deconstructing tropes, Rickon and Shaggy will actually live?

I think the subverting troupes thing is overblown. The George loves the the red herring and the cliffhanger to produce sharp plot twists but he follows more troupes than he subverts.

[Blazfemur]

am i seriously the only one in this entire forum that sees the link between:

What Jon did to 'make a peace' with the Wildlings, come back to the Watch, get stabbed in the back and villainized

and

What The Last Hero possibly did with the COTF/Others, returned, got stabbed in the back and villainized by the then Watch, then possibly making him The Night's King?

Seriously? No one sees this? You really think the watch of today wont villainize Jon for what he attempted to do with Wildlings? He "LAID with a wildling?" "Broke his vows?"

No, no parallels at all.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

am i seriously the only one in this entire forum that sees the link between:

What Jon did to 'make a peace' with the Wildlings, come back to the Watch, get stabbed in the back and villainized

and

What The Last Hero possibly did with the COTF/Others, returned, got stabbed in the back and villainized by the then Watch, then possibly making him The Night's King?

Seriously? No one sees this? You really think the watch of today wont villainize Jon for what he attempted to do with Wildlings? He "LAID with a wildling?" "Broke his vows?"

<snip

The key word there is possibly. It's also possible that the NK episode actually went down the way we've been told it did.

Yes, he very well could be villainized for it but...when the Others attack, I think everybody's going to drop that petty Wildling vs Westeros stuff. The Watch of today won't have time to do much, quite frankly. And in the future, he's far more likely to be praised as a hero for having the wisdom to keep the Wildlings from becoming expendable undead infantry for the Others. Unlike Night's King, who has remained a villain in all the stories post-rule.

[elliebigga]

i don't see why Jojen has to be turned into paste it has been said several times in the book that the sap of weir woods resemble blood and when Bran tries the paste he says it goes from a horrible taste to a very nice one I'm sure if Jojen was Bran would know or Meera would be sulking

[Lost Melnibonean]

i don't see why Jojen has to be turned into paste it has been said several times in the book that the sap of weir woods resemble blood and when Bran tries the paste he says it goes from a horrible taste to a very nice one I'm sure if Jojen was Bran would know or Meera would be sulking

I've noted what I think are three subtle hints in Clash & Storm of what's to come. When Jon & Qhorin were running from Rattleshirt they mixed horse blood in their oates and Jon gaged on it. Arya thought of the taste of blood--completely out of context--when she entered the weirwood csve of the BWB. Jon gaged when Aemon gave him milk of the poppy that mingled with blood in his mouth from biting his lip. Compare...

"It is time," Lord Brynden said.

Something in his voice sent icy fingers running up Bran's back.

"Time for what?"

"For the next step. For you to go beyond skinchanging and learn what it means to be a greenseer."

"The trees will teach him," said Leaf. She beckoned, and another of the singers padded forward, the white-haired one that Meera had named Snowy locks. She had a weirwood bowl in her hands, carved with a dozen faces, like the ones the heart trees wore. Inside was a white paste, thick and heavy, with dark red veins running through it. "You must eat of this," said Leaf. She handed Bran a wooden spoon.

The boy looked at the bowl uncertainly. "What is it?"

"A paste of weirwood seeds."

Something about the look of it made Bran feel ill. The red veins were only weirwood sap, he supposed, but in the torchlight they looked remarkably like blood. He dipped the spoon into the paste, then hesitated.

"Will this make me a greenseer?"

"Your blood makes you a greenseer," said Lord Brynden. "This will help awaken your gifts and wed you to the trees."

Bran did want to be married to a tree but who else would wed a broken boy like him? A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. A greenseer.

He ate.

It had a bitter taste, though not so bitter as acorn paste. The first spoonful was the hardest to get down. He almost retched it right back up. The second tasted better. The third was almost sweet. The rest he spooned up eagerly. Why had he thought that it was bitter? It tasted of honey, of new-fallen snow, of pepper and cinnamon and the last kiss his mother ever gave him. The empty bowl slipped from his fingers and clattered on the cavern floor. "I don't feel any different. What happens next?"

Leaf touched his hand. "The trees will teach you. The trees remember." He raised a hand, and the other singers began to move about the cavern, extinguishing the torches one by one. The darkness thickened and crept toward them.

Bran III, Dance

[Lost Melnibonean]

On the other hand, we do have this...

"If [benjen] doesn't come back," Jon Snow promised, "Ghost and I will go find him."

Tyrion III, Game 21

So maybe our lovable Sam, Rickon, and Shaggy will live, but we can kiss anyone who sets off with Jon goodbye as soon as they pass the Wall?

[grufolo]

I think the TV show already showed to us what happened to the last hero, which the books still haven't.

https://comeonhitme.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/the-turn.jpg

[Lost Melnibonean]

I think the TV show already showed to us what happened to the last hero, which the books still haven't.

https://comeonhitme.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/the-turn.jpg

That was Craster's wee bairns not the Last Hero. In any event HBO's GOT has evolved into a different story than The George's ASOIAF.

[Hank of House Hutton]

Just a thought. Arya meets a sword (Syrio Forel), a dog (the Hound) , and if I haven't missed someone she had 12 people on her list. Which in a way keep her company. She had a horse too.

Now I don't believe it myself really. But I just want to put out that you can find these clues everywhere if you want to find them. That doesn't necessarilly make them true.

It seems like anyone can be anyone with any motive.

damn this is pretty good lol well played

[The Jon]

Yes please clarify why Shaggy Dog's name means he will die? Is it just because there is a "Dog" in his name representing the dog that went with the Last Hero?

I know he's not a major player yet but I'm pretty sure Rickon dying would ruin the story for me.

  

Please read this... http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaggy_dog_story

Yes please clarify why Shaggy Dog's name means he will die? Is it just because there is a "Dog" in his name representing the dog that went with the Last Hero?

I know he's not a major player yet but I'm pretty sure Rickon dying would ruin the story for me.

  

Please read this... http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaggy_dog_story

So I was reading in another thread that in Celtic folklore, a black "shaggy dog" represents a harbinger of death, also used in Harry Potter's character Grim. So it might not actually mean Rickon's story is useless.

[Lost Melnibonean]

    
So I was reading in another thread that in Celtic folklore, a black "shaggy dog" represents a harbinger of death, also used in Harry Potter's character Grim. So it might not actually mean Rickon's story is useless.

Can you point me to that thread or to some quick and dirty Internet support?

[targurl 15]

Yes please clarify why Shaggy Dog's name means he will die? Is it just because there is a "Dog" in his name representing the dog that went with the Last Hero?

I know he's not a major player yet but I'm pretty sure Rickon dying would ruin the story for me.

A " shaggy dog story" is a story with an anticlimactic ending.

[The Jon]

Can you point me to that thread or to some quick and dirty Internet support?

Sure. As you can see here (http://www.djmcadam.com/blackdogs.htm), black dogs in stories in general have been used in Britain in this way. In Roy Palmer's The folklore of Warwickshire, and taken from the website above, we see:

"A black dog with a matted, shaggy coat and green eyes roams in Whitmore Park at night. Local people avoided the area, since to see the dog means a death in the family [8]."

Sounds just like shaggy dog doesn't it? You know I always wondered about Rickon's wildness and trauma that he's endured, if he would ever be able to tame himself (or by Osha/Davos) or be blood-thirsty in dispensing Stark enemies. This passage wasn't actually what I was originally referring to, but I tried to find something quick so I googled it, and thought it might be of interest to you.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Sure. As you can see here (http://www.djmcadam.com/blackdogs.htm), black dogs in stories in general have been used in Britain in this way. In Roy Palmer's The folklore of Warwickshire, and taken from the website above, we see:

"A black dog with a matted, shaggy coat and green eyes roams in Whitmore Park at night. Local people avoided the area, since to see the dog means a death in the family [8]."

Sounds just like shaggy dog doesn't it? You know I always wondered about Rickon's wildness and trauma that he's endured, if he would ever be able to tame himself (or by Osha/Davos) or be blood-thirsty in dispensing Stark enemies. This passage wasn't actually what I was originally referring to, but I tried to find something quick so I googled it, and thought it might be of interest to you.

I'm going to add your post to the OP as an intriguing counterargument. Thanks!

[Minuteman]

I don't know why so many believe Old Nan's tells are predictive of anything. I believe that they serve more to partially reveal why the Others are at war and why the Wall exists. They also serve to add to the Stark family lore. I just don't get why people are going for the hook that something that may have happened 8000 years ago means the exact same thing will happen again to the same types of people in the same numbers under the same circumstances and for the same reasons. The only reincarnation story in the book is AAr and that, in my opinion, is a false prophecy pushed by the Red Priests to mobilize people to oppose the ice powers. The only confirmation of AAr beyond Mel was Aemon asking about Lightbringer. Aemon made absolutely no mention of AAr or express an opinion as to who it may be or if the "reborn" part is legitimate other than to ask if Stannis' Lightbringer was warm. The ptwp prophecy is widely believed but we don't know what tptwp is supposed to do and have no reason at all to believe that the ptwp and AAr are one and the same. Why people are convinced that the Last Hero story will repeat isn't something that I understand unless Martin has alluded to it. It would be fanciful otherwise.

[melx]

Bran as the Last Hero....i dont care about that part of story but your theory fits very nice and its new:well done :thumbsup:

still i hope it turns out that Rickon will not die (only stark i like)..yes his story line probably leads to nowhere and i think it will be along the "Princes in the Tower" line: missing but alive

[The Jon]

I'm going to add your post to the OP as an intriguing counterargument. Thanks!

You're welcome, I'm glad I could contribute, I know you have a lot of great ideas/threads!

[The_Watcher_On_The_Walls]

Bran as the Last Hero....i dont care about that part of story but your theory fits very nice and its new:well done :thumbsup:

still i hope it turns out that Rickon will not die (only stark i like)..yes his story line probably leads to nowhere and i think it will be along the "Princes in the Tower" line: missing but alive

You don't care about the long night and you don't like the Starks, except for the baby we don't know? 

[unitron]

Nah I don't buy it. Rickon afterall isn't a POV. The real Shaggy dog story to me was Sansa's fate. All you do while you read that is hope that she is out when you turn every page, she is on the run somewhere, but it ends up being in same spot with worse conditions around her. Same can be said for Arya, huge build up only to go somewhere else thats unrelated to the currect events because she met a Lorathy looking man that changed his face. Those 2 are shaggy dog stories, whilst Rickon wasn't much than last in line and simply follow up to Bran, that abruptly got his value increased when his oldest brother got killed and helped sweaten the hope of readers, and afterall he resembles Brandon the Wild Stark most of all his brother, you know the one that was destined to rule?

 

Sansa's story is more Damsel in Distress/Perils of Pauline, although more the later common mis-remembering of it where each episode ended on a cliffhanger, instead of the actual series where she gets rescued from the danger de jour before the end of each episode, but either way it's one peril after another.

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

Click that wikipedia link a shaggy dog story is a story that leads nowhere and ends with an abrupt nonsense ending, and in this world that probably means death for rickon and shags.

You're saying that Rickon's story will either lead nowhere or that Rickon and Shaggy Dog will die and their deaths will mean nothing and have no impact on the story.  I really hope that is not true.  As a matter of fact, that would mean Davos is on a course for nothing?