Why would Varys and Ilyrio help Dany and Aegon? Blackfyre or Targaryen supporters?

[The Duke]

A). If Aegon is a Blackfyre, perhaps they wanted to reunite them since they are all descended from Aegon the Unworthy. My guess is an "accident" or "assassination" would have happened to Viserys after he wedded Arianne Martel and added Dorne's strength to their own and then wed Aegon and Dany.

B) They don't really care who sits the iron throne, they want to be in a position of power in the new Westeros and would back whomever got the job done.

C).Viserys and Dany were pawns until the dragons hatched

D) They want Westeros to destroy itself in constant civil war and for Westeros to become another group of free cities

Just spitballing ideas

[The Dornishman's Wife]

But Aegon only has a superior claim if he is really Rhaegars son. If he is in fact a Blackfyre or just some random kid then Dany has the better claim.

Indeed. I assume that Varys/Illyrio didn't plan on telling that to Dany & Viserys (at least not before they outlived their usefulness).

[Groat]

Indeed. I assume that Varys/Illyrio didn't plan on telling that to Dany & Viserys (at least not before they outlived their usefulness).

I have always envisioned this scene where the dust settles, the war is over, Aegon is on the IT as the clear winner, and Varys brings out the sword Blackfyre or maybe a cloak with a black dragon.

[Scipio Africanus]

Indeed. I assume that Varys/Illyrio didn't plan on telling that to Dany & Viserys (at least not before they outlived their usefulness).

Has it ever been stated or suggested or hinted at, that the Griffs were to link up with the GC when they were supposed to link up with the Dothraki? If not, then I can see a scenario where the GC and the Dothraki under Viserys/Dany land in Westeros, and at some point in time that the GC "rebel" and stop fighting for the Targs, and the Griffs step in and reveal themselves, after which the GC joins them and team up to destroy the Dothraki and Viserys/Dany.

If they were also meant to link up then I have no clue where Illyrio/Varys were going with this.

It does seem like Illyrio didn't expect Dany to survive the Dothraki sea, but in GoT he did try to convince Viserys to stay with him in Pentos. If he wanted Viserys to die along with Dany why not give his blessing in the first place and be rid of him?

Another question that bugs me is that if Illyrio expected Dany to die, why give the dragon eggs in the first place, considering their expense and those barbaric Dothraki just might try to eat them or something? Now it has been suggested to me that the eggs were part of the package deal and that they were intended so that the Dothraki could pay for passage by selling them, but if Illyrio intended for Dany to die who was going to convince them to cross in the first place? I suppose Viserys (but if he was expected to die it makes no sense) but it all still seems kind of harebrained to me.

[Groat]

Has it ever been stated or suggested or hinted at, that the Griffs were to link up with the GC when they were supposed to link up with the Dothraki? If not, then I can see a scenario where the GC and the Dothraki under Viserys/Dany land in Westeros, and at some point in time that the GC "rebel" and stop fighting for the Targs, and the Griffs step in and reveal themselves, after which the GC joins them and team up to destroy the Dothraki and Viserys/Dany.

If they were also meant to link up then I have no clue where Illyrio/Varys were going with this.

It does seem like Illyrio didn't expect Dany to survive the Dothraki sea, but in GoT he did try to convince Viserys to stay with him in Pentos. If he wanted Viserys to die along with Dany why not give his blessing in the first place and be rid of him?

Another question that bugs me is that if Illyrio expected Dany to die, why give the dragon eggs in the first place, considering their expense and those barbaric Dothraki just might try to eat them or something? Now it has been suggested to me that the eggs were part of the package deal and that they were intended so that the Dothraki could pay for passage by selling them, but if Illyrio intended for Dany to die who was going to convince them to cross in the first place? I suppose Viserys but it all still seems kind of harebrained to me.

It is not stated that the GC was reserved as Aegon's army, but it is clearly hinted at given Jon Con's experience. If Aegon turns out to be an actual Blackfyre, then it's almost a certainty that the GC was to be Aegon's army.

Illyrio convinced Viserys to stay in Pentos about as hard as Varys convinced Tyrion not to go up to Tywin's apartments before Tyrion killed him. What's the sign of a truly skilled con man? He makes the mark think it was their idea to begin with.

Many people speculate, and I agree, that the dragons eggs were to be used to pay for transport for the Dothraki. Possibly even Sellsword companies. They were counting on Drogo's rage for an assassination on his wife to be the main reason for the invasion. In this instance, the were most likely correct, as Drogo decides to attack even from an attempt, and would probably have gone batshit crazy if Dany and Rhaego actually were killed.

[Lord_Tyrell]

What doesn't make sense at all is why they ever helped Dany to begin with if they had Aegon in training the whole time. They didn't know Drogo would die, know one knew that. So if Drogo had lived, nothing with Aegon would have worked out at all, Drogo would have taken his hoarde to KL with Dany and a lot of crazy shit would have gone down, and Drogo would never have shared power with Aegon. And why give the dragon eggs to Dany instead of Aegon? If Varys and IIyrio are Blackfyre supporters then what sense does it make to give Dany all the power? Also they didn't know for sure they Viserys would die either.....What is the point of helping Dany, Viserys and Aegon?? Some of this just does not add up at all. I want answers!

They weren't counting on Dany and Viserys to survive. They knew for sure Viserys would have been killed going out with the Dothraki, and thought that either Dany could convince Drogo to go forth or send an assassin. Whether the assassin succeeded or not, it would have the same result: Drogo marching West. I think their plans were to get the Dothraki raiding Westeros, and then have Aegon come out of nowhere and defeat them, since against fortified castles, the Dothraki aren't all that skilled at.

The only reason they're wanting Dany now is for her dragons and the Unsullied. They don't give a damn about her as a person and will kill her once they've got her army and dragons securely under their control.

Aegon is the true plan and Dany and Viserys were merely used to keep Robert distracted from his true threat. I believe that Varys is of Blackfyre decent and he had a sister named Serra, who married Illyrio. Her dying wish was for her son, Aegon, to sit on the Iron Throne. Varys and Illyrio have made this their mission to put Aegon on the Iron Throne no matter what the price.

[Lord_Tyrell]

I thought they wanted to united Dany & Aegon and marry them. That is why they were heading towards her until Tyrion talked Aegon into going to Westeros and waiting for her.

That was after they know that she has live dragons. That changes everything. Before that, she was completely disposable.

[bloody_mummer]

but if Illyrio intended for Dany to die who was going to convince them to cross in the first place? I suppose Viserys (but if he was expected to die it makes no sense) but it all still seems kind of harebrained to me.

Jorah would tell Drogo who ordered the hit and the Khal would react accordingly.

[Lost Melnibonean]

What doesn't make sense at all is why they ever helped Dany to begin with if they had Aegon in training the whole time. They didn't know Drogo would die, know one knew that. So if Drogo had lived, nothing with Aegon would have worked out at all, Drogo would have taken his hoarde to KL with Dany and a lot of crazy shit would have gone down, and Drogo would never have shared power with Aegon. And why give the dragon eggs to Dany instead of Aegon? If Varys and IIyrio are Blackfyre supporters then what sense does it make to give Dany all the power? Also they didn't know for sure they Viserys would die either.....What is the point of helping Dany, Viserys and Aegon?? Some of this just does not add up at all. I want answers!

The original plan was to join a detachment of 10k Dothraki under Viserys, at least nominally, to the 10k GC, and probably 20k spears from Dorne, with the intention of installing Aegon on the IT. Dany was a bargaining chip. Dany and Viserys would have legitimized Aegon's claim, the way Roose intended to use Theon at the wedding in WF.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Well, the books states that the Golden Company was originally planning to meet up with Viserys/the Dothraki, so I think the legit Targs were basically pawns to gather more forces to Aegon. If Viserys got in line behind Aegon then fine, I'm sure a known legit Targ backing Aegon would have only been good for Varys' scheme. If in the likely case that he objected then he could have been gotten rid of.

yeap

[Maxpey]

I have always been confused by this quote. It seems at least that the Golden Company was supposed to join the Dothraki when they sailed west, which would indeed disprove the notion that Aegon was supposed to swoop in and "save the day" from the Dothraki.

One possible explanation for this apparent contradiction is that only a select few members of the GC knew about the plan involving(f)Aegon. The rest were told that plan was for them to go back to Westeros w/Viserys and Drogo. The reason for the duplicity being it would be hard for (f)Aegon to remain a secret to the rest of the world if the entire GC knew about him.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

They weren't counting on Dany and Viserys to survive. They knew for sure Viserys would have been killed going out with the Dothraki, and thought that either Dany could convince Drogo to go forth or send an assassin. Whether the assassin succeeded or not, it would have the same result: Drogo marching West. I think their plans were to get the Dothraki raiding Westeros, and then have Aegon come out of nowhere and defeat them, since against fortified castles, the Dothraki aren't all that skilled at.

The only reason they're wanting Dany now is for her dragons and the Unsullied. They don't give a damn about her as a person and will kill her once they've got her army and dragons securely under their control.

Aegon is the true plan and Dany and Viserys were merely used to keep Robert distracted from his true threat. I believe that Varys is of Blackfyre decent and he had a sister named Serra, who married Illyrio. Her dying wish was for her son, Aegon, to sit on the Iron Throne. Varys and Illyrio have made this their mission to put Aegon on the Iron Throne no matter what the price.

So then this is all just another very well thought out Blackfyre rebellion. So Bloodraven will have to come out of hiding to help put it down, because I seriously doubt he has changed his mind about Blackfyre's after all these years. So in the end Varys will probably try or succeed at killing Dany, then Jon Snow will have to take the crown back for the Targ's and defeat the last known Blackfyre.

OK...but Aegon thinks he is Rhaegar's son correct? And So does Jon Con.... Jon Con is going to be a very loose cannon once he finds out he has been wasting the last 10 years of his life protecting an imposter who has been pretending (or unknowingly) to be His dead best friends (and his princes) long lost son.

And what will Aegon do when he finds out who he really is?? I knew he wasn't a Targaryen the whole time, look how different he is from Aegon V in D&E, their characters are not similar at all, to me that was the biggest give away.

Whew! Varys and IIyrio are much more 'bad guys' than I originally thought. Jon Con is dying and all he cares about is getting Aegon back on throne before he dies, but only because he thinks he is Rhaegar's son..... so WTF will happen when he finds out the truth? I think he is a very dangerous guy......expendable in their master plan as well, but more dangerous than they think. And no one has any idea about Jon Snow either. Wow this discussion is great!! Thx a lot everyone :)

[mattah84]

What doesn't make sense at all is why they ever helped Dany to begin with if they had Aegon in training the whole time. They didn't know Drogo would die, know one knew that. So if Drogo had lived, nothing with Aegon would have worked out at all, Drogo would have taken his hoarde to KL with Dany and a lot of crazy shit would have gone down, and Drogo would never have shared power with Aegon. And why give the dragon eggs to Dany instead of Aegon? If Varys and IIyrio are Blackfyre supporters then what sense does it make to give Dany all the power? Also they didn't know for sure they Viserys would die either.....What is the point of helping Dany, Viserys and Aegon?? Some of this just does not add up at all. I want answers!

Varys and Illyrio were using Danaerys and Viserys as kind of decoys for Aegon. They didn't know Dany would actually hatch the Dragons Eggs and anybody could see Viserys was no king. They were much more secretive with Aegons location over that of Dany and Viserys, and I think it is because Aegon has Martell Blood. Varys know all the secret passages in and out of Kings Landing so he could have made the switch if he wanted to.

Varys loyalties have been veiled and have interested me throughout the series. I could never quite figure them out and I think it is because he is really loyal to Doran Martell. I also think Varys is the one that told Doran about Cerseis plot to kill Trystane. He advised Aerys not to open the gates to protect both himself (he was surely not expecting a pardon should the city fall) and to protect Elia Martell and her Daughter (Martell Blood and Rhaegars Family).

I think Aegon could be the real deal. Varys placed Dany and Viserys with Illyrio (A Fat Pentoshi who probably wont end up in Westeros) and he placed Aegon with Rhaegars best friend Jon Connington (a man who could help lead Aegons armies and maybe be his hand should he sit the throne).

[joluoto]

A). If Aegon is a Blackfyre, perhaps they wanted to reunite them since they are all descended from Aegon the Unworthy. My guess is an "accident" or "assassination" would have happened to Viserys after he wedded Arianne Martel and added Dorne's strength to their own and then wed Aegon and Dany.

B) They don't really care who sits the iron throne, they want to be in a position of power in the new Westeros and would back whomever got the job done.

C).Viserys and Dany were pawns until the dragons hatched

D) They want Westeros to destroy itself in constant civil war and for Westeros to become another group of free cities

Just spitballing ideas

I don't think they ever wanted Viserys to marry Arianne Martell. I think one of the reasons they took Viserys and Dany in was to make sure Viserys would never find out about the Dornish plot. They didn't want the wrong Targaryen on the throne.

Aegon is their end game. It has always been about him. Viserys was a tool to keep Robert occupied, someone they'd gladly remove. Daenerys was thought as a match for Aegon until they got the Dothraki idea.

[JLE]

Note: If Aegon is a Blackfyre, then the whole point is that he does NOT have Martell blood. Daemon Blackfyre was Aegon IV's bastard by a Targaryen relative, and thus could claim a purer bloodline than the descendants of Daeron II were going to have (since Daeron married Myriah Martell).

In fact one of the whole reasons for the Blackfyre rebellion was that Daemon wanted to marry Princess Daenerys, rather than accept the double marriage with the Martells (Daeron II to Myriah Martell, Daenerys to Prince Maron.) The Blackfyres seem to have been as much bloodline-purists as the Targaryens, in fact even more so (and more generations of incest could have led to the deformity of the last acknowledged male Blackfyre, Maelys the Monstrous.)

[joluoto]

Note: If Aegon is a Blackfyre, then the whole point is that he does NOT have Martell blood. Daemon Blackfyre was Aegon IV's bastard by a Targaryen relative, and thus could claim a purer bloodline than the descendants of Daeron II were going to have (since Daeron married Myriah Martell).

In fact one of the whole reasons for the Blackfyre rebellion was that Daemon wanted to marry Princess Daenerys, rather than accept the double marriage with the Martells (Daeron II to Myriah Martell, Daenerys to Prince Maron.) The Blackfyres seem to have been as much bloodline-purists as the Targaryens, in fact even more so (and more generations of incest could have led to the deformity of the last acknowledged male Blackfyre, Maelys the Monstrous.)

If Aegon is a Blackfyre I don't think the BF supporters give a damn about purity of the bloodline anymore (the same way the Targaryen supporters don't give a shit about the Targaryen succession laws anymore). They just want their boy on the throne.

[Scipio Africanus]

Varys and Illyrio were using Danaerys and Viserys as kind of decoys for Aegon. They didn't know Dany would actually hatch the Dragons Eggs and anybody could see Viserys was no king. They were much more secretive with Aegons location over that of Dany and Viserys, and I think it is because Aegon has Martell Blood. Varys know all the secret passages in and out of Kings Landing so he could have made the switch if he wanted to.

Varys loyalties have been veiled and have interested me throughout the series. I could never quite figure them out and I think it is because he is really loyal to Doran Martell. I also think Varys is the one that told Doran about Cerseis plot to kill Trystane. He advised Aerys not to open the gates to protect both himself (he was surely not expecting a pardon should the city fall) and to protect Elia Martell and her Daughter (Martell Blood and Rhaegars Family).

I doubt this, Doran states he doesn't trust Varys. The author stated that neither Varys nor Illyrio knew about Doran's letter to Ser William Darry which contained a marriage alliance proposal between Arianne and Viserys. If Doran trusted why not contact them about it?

No I doubt Doran and Varys are working together, as for Doran's mole, I suspect that Taena Merryweather is the leak. Or at least I read a theory about that some time ago, but I'm not a specialist on this theory so I can't remember the arguements made and proofs given.

[Th1stle Sandwood]

Reading through this thread, I suspect that most people here think of Illyrio and Varys as the more cunning versions of Cersei Lannister. It's very likely that neither planned for Viserys and Danaerys to conquer Westeros -- this does not mean that they actively wished to silence them. Illyrio urged Viserys to stay with him probably because he knew how dangerous it would be for him to travel with Drogos. They seem both to be somewhat loyal to the Targaryens, and unfortunately inept at planning for their future.

Maybe they are better at playing with kingdoms than with kings --- the best suggestion I've read here seems that they want Westeros to become a collection of free cities.

[Scipio Africanus]

I suspect that most people here think of Illyrio and Varys as the more cunning versions of Cersei Lannister.

I would hope so, Cercei isn't very cunning due to her mental issues...

[The guy from the Vale]

Reading through this thread, I suspect that most people here think of Illyrio and Varys as the more cunning versions of Cersei Lannister. It's very likely that neither planned for Viserys and Danaerys to conquer Westeros -- this does not mean that they actively wished to silence them. Illyrio urged Viserys to stay with him probably because he knew how dangerous it would be for him to travel with Drogos. They seem both to be somewhat loyal to the Targaryens, and unfortunately inept at planning for their future.

Maybe they are better at playing with kingdoms than with kings --- the best suggestion I've read here seems that they want Westeros to become a collection of free cities.

Nope. Varys and Illyrio are playing a very long game, for at least 15 years by now, and likely 20 already. Cersei's long-term strategy skills are nonexistent. That's a huge difference there.

Varys and Illyrio are not loyal to the Targaryens. Varys undermined Rhaegar, and Illyrio never lifted a finger for Dany and Viserys until he could make a profit out of it. They are loyal to fAegon only. Well, and perhaps Varys was somewhat loyal to Aerys earlier on, but feeding someone's paranoia is not really a good kind of loyalty to begin with.