Ygrain Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 Rhaegar was the Crown Prince and had a duty to the realm. I don't think Ned hates him, but as others have said he would be very justified in hating him. Lyanna deserves some blame, but she was a 14 year old girl even if a capable fighter. She is not exactly doing to defeat Rhaegar and Ser Arthur Dayne(deadliest knight in the realm) then drag them off to the Tower of the Joy. Rhaegar deserves more of the blame.Sort it out with Ned, who doesn't seem the type for blaming the victim,Also, don't drag abstract duties to the realm into the comparison, as the Cersei-Lancel issue stemmed from a more personal relationship, more of a note of a parent substitute-child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrunderhill Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 Sort it out with Ned, who doesn't seem the type for blaming the victim,Also, don't drag abstract duties to the realm into the comparison, as the Cersei-Lancel issue stemmed from a more personal relationship, more of a note of a parent substitute-child.How was Rhaegar the victim? If he blames Lyanna a bit, then I am sure he puts a lot more blame on Rhaegar. He doesn't seem to hate the man, but as others have said he enjoys telling the story about how the "Demon of the Trident" caved his chest in.Protecting the realm is not an abstract comment. I was talking more about Rhaegar offending two powerful Lord Paramounts with his actions rather than any duty to Lyanna, but by all accounts running off with a 14 year old would not be taken well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggs Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 We do not know any of these things well enough to make a judgement, while Ned very well might have the knowledge. We still don't know Rhaegar's motivation for eloping with Lyanna, we don't know if Elia was involved in Rhaegar's plans and how, although they definitely didn't love each other (and that cuts both ways...), and as for causing trouble, we have no idea how much trouble he expected, although I guess he didn't quite envision full-out war as the consequence.Rhaegars ignorance to the consequences of his actions shouldn't afford him any greater mercies. He should've known better. At best, you can say that Elia didn't give a shit, but Ned is a guy who views cheating in the wife he only knew for 2 weeks as a massive betrayal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The guy from the Vale Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 Rhaegars ignorance to the consequences of his actions shouldn't afford him any greater mercies. He should've known better. At best, you can say that Elia didn't give a shit, but Ned is a guy who views cheating in the wife he only knew for 2 weeks as a massive betrayal.He should have had a crystal sphere? Noone could know Brandon would react as foolishly as he did, and apparently Aerys wasn't yet paranoid enough to kill people left and right. As for Elia not giving a shit, true... but if she gave her consent, the situation changes again, because we don't have the cheating in place any longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggs Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 He should have had a crystal sphere? He should have common sense. Running off with a lord paramounts daughter (who is betrothed to another lord paramount) and not telling anyone was obviously going to lead to big trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The guy from the Vale Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 He should have common sense. Running off with a lord paramounts daughter (who is betrothed to another lord paramount) and not telling anyone was obviously going to lead to big trouble.We don't know if they didn't tell anyone. We do not know how much Rickard Stark knew, for example.Also, the false dichotomy again... He should have expected trouble, true, but trouble doesn't always mean war, and indeed war didn't break out until Aerys' paranoid demands became too much to bear (asking for Ned's and Bob's heads...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggs Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 We don't know if they didn't tell anyone. We do not know how much Rickard Stark knew, for example.Also, the false dichotomy again... He should have expected trouble, true, but trouble doesn't always mean war, and indeed war didn't break out until Aerys' paranoid demands became too much to bear (asking for Ned's and Bob's heads...)when did I say anything about war? I said it would lead to trouble. And why on earth would he tell Rickard but leave Bobby B out of the loop? Robert does love to fight... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrunderhill Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 when did I say anything about war? I said it would lead to trouble. And why on earth would he tell Rickard but leave Bobby B out of the loop? Robert does love to fight...Robert loves to fight, is very good at fighting and even better at leading other men to fight. Worst he has a claim to the throne. Aerys may have been crazy, but at least he was smart enough to realise the huge risk posed by Robert Baratheon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fallen Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 We don't know if they didn't tell anyone. We do not know how much Rickard Stark knew, for example.Also, the false dichotomy again... He should have expected trouble, true, but trouble doesn't always mean war, and indeed war didn't break out until Aerys' paranoid demands became too much to bear (asking for Ned's and Bob's heads...) Brandon Stark is known as a hothead. Usually that kind of trait is noticeable within five minutes of being around the individual. Both Rheagar and Brandon Stark were at the tourney at Harrenhal. Rhaegar had to have had an idea of how a Brandon Stark might react. Maybe not to what extent, but still. And he has to know that the dishonor to House Stark would lead to a strong response from them. I just think Rhaegar felt he had to do what he did. As to the question of hate, Ned clearly didn't hate Rhaegar or any of the Targaryens that are still alive. Ned doesn't hate whole houses though, he hates individuals. Contrast how Ned feels about Jorah Mormont to his views about Rhaegar and you can see he doesn't hate the latter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedBean Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 I don't think he hated them. The family that he really seems to hate is the Lannisters. I think he realized in the end that Lyanna eloped with Rhaegar of her own free will, so he couldn't really blame Rhaegar for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 How was Rhaegar the victim? If he blames Lyanna a bit, then I am sure he puts a lot more blame on Rhaegar. He doesn't seem to hate the man, but as others have said he enjoys telling the story about how the "Demon of the Trident" caved his chest in.Protecting the realm is not an abstract comment. I was talking more about Rhaegar offending two powerful Lord Paramounts with his actions rather than any duty to Lyanna, but by all accounts running off with a 14 year old would not be taken well.You've misread me. I meant that he wouldn't be leaving some blame with Lyanna if she wasn't somehow complicit.Cersei's duty towards Lancel was something entirely different than Rhaegar's towards the realm. You may compare what you perceive as Rhaegar's failure with Cersei's failures to do her duty as a queen and regent, but her tryst with Lancel falls into a different category.when did I say anything about war? I said it would lead to trouble. And why on earth would he tell Rickard but leave Bobby B out of the loop? Robert does love to fight...And why should he tell Robert? Until the very day of her marriage, the rsponsibility for Lyanna lay solely with RIckard. Brandon Stark is known as a hothead. Usually that kind of trait is noticeable within five minutes of being around the individual. Both Rheagar and Brandon Stark were at the tourney at Harrenhal. Rhaegar had to have had an idea of how a Brandon Stark might react. Maybe not to what extent, but still. And he has to know that the dishonor to House Stark would lead to a strong response from them. I just think Rhaegar felt he had to do what he did. As to the question of hate, Ned clearly didn't hate Rhaegar or any of the Targaryens that are still alive. Ned doesn't hate whole houses though, he hates individuals. Contrast how Ned feels about Jorah Mormont to his views about Rhaegar and you can see he doesn't hate the latter.Which is most probably one of the reasons why Rhaegar made sure that he couldn't be found. Predicting that someone would come to challenge him when he is not there would really require a crystal ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggs Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 And why should he tell Robert? Until the very day of her marriage, the rsponsibility for Lyanna lay solely with RIckard.Because she was engaged to Robert. It was his business to know and he would obviously make a dangerous enemy.Which is most probably one of the reasons why Rhaegar made sure that he couldn't be found. Predicting that someone would come to challenge him when he is not there would really require a crystal ball.predicting that someone will look for you at your home doesn't require a crystal ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toxspecific Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 As a whole, I don't think he was particularly fond of them, specifically Aerys, but "hate" is a strong word. He obviously was unhappy with the murder of the Targaryen children, and even Rhaegar, who by many accounts kidnapped and raped his sister, he doesn't seem to remember with any particular resentment, hell he even compares him favorably to Robert, even if only in respect to brothels. I think the Northern attitude towards House Targaryen as a whole was decidedly apathetic, but when Rickard and Brandon were executed the line was crossed, for Ned and The North in general. But no, I don't think Ned had a personal hatred for House Targaryen as a whole, just for Aerys.Yep this pretty much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 Because she was engaged to Robert. It was his business to know and he would obviously make a dangerous enemy.It would still be Rickard's business to smooth things out if he was truly informed about the elopement. Plus, having RIckard to pass on the information would perhaps be more sensible than telling right away.predicting that someone will look for you at your home doesn't require a crystal ball./facepalm/I didn't say that looking for Rhaegar could not be predicted. I said that roaring "some out and die" when he is not at home could not be predicted. Please, argue the points I actually made, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fede989 Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 I just don't think Ned was a hating man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggs Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 It would still be Rickard's business to smooth things out if he was truly informed about the elopement. Plus, having RIckard to pass on the information would perhaps be more sensible than telling right away.so you're saying that Rhaegar letting it all fall on Rickard would have been a good move? I disagree. He should take responsibility for his actions./facepalm/I didn't say that looking for Rhaegar could not be predicted. I said that roaring "some out and die" when he is not at home could not be predicted. Please, argue the points I actually made,really? You facepalmed? Which is most probably one of the reasons why Rhaegar made sure that he couldn't be found. Predicting that someone would come to challenge him when he is not there would really require a crystal ball.you did a horrible job getting your point across. You clearly say that Rhaegar hid because of how Brandon would react and then say that he would need a crystal ball to predict that Brandon would go to KL looking for him when he was actually hiding somewhere else. 'Predicting that someone would come to challenge him when he is not there'How could you expect me to read another meaning into that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrunderhill Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 You've misread me. I meant that he wouldn't be leaving some blame with Lyanna if she wasn't somehow complicit.Cersei's duty towards Lancel was something entirely different than Rhaegar's towards the realm. You may compare what you perceive as Rhaegar's failure with Cersei's failures to do her duty as a queen and regent, but her tryst with Lancel falls into a different category.We will agree to disagree about his responsibilities.And why should he tell Robert? Until the very day of her marriage, the rsponsibility for Lyanna lay solely with RIckard.Because Robert as her betrothed was emotionally and politically involved. Robert was also a great military commander and could become a threat to the throne. Not to mention they were cousins and it is the decent thing to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonin Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 Strangely, Ned does not hate the Targaryens, not even Aerys. Ned does, however, seem to hate the Lannisters (Tywin and Jaime). The text does not supply any examples of Ned hating the Targs.I think Neds lack of hate for the Targs is a plot device by GRRM. GRRM wants the readers to have a somewhat favorable impression of the Targaryens (not Aerys). Starks are probably everyone's favorite family in agot, if Ned hates the Targs, so will most of the readers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The guy from the Vale Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 We will agree to disagree about his responsibilities.Because Robert as her betrothed was emotionally and politically involved. Robert was also a great military commander and could become a threat to the throne. Not to mention they were cousins and it is the decent thing to do.Robert was so emotionally involved in Lyanna he preferred drinking Ser Lonmouth under the table to spending time with Lyanna during the Tourney at Harrenhal, so struck by her being kidnapped by Rhaegar that he visited the Peach in Stoney Sept. Robert also wasn't known as a battle commander at all at this time; Robert's first battle came with Gulltown... after the start of the Rebellion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toxspecific Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 FYI guys, true love isn't an excuse for running off with someone's daughter knowing it could potentially screw your family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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