A Dwarf's Perspective On Tyrion Lannister

[Littlefingers In The Air]

Everyone who had sex with a slave in Essos is a rapist?

Whats your argument that it was rape? Id like to hear it again, maybe i am wrong.

he intentionally made sure she feared him, telling her it would please him to strangle her. When you enter into someone who fears you, that's rape. Please, deny it.

[nirolo]

This is not a Little Finger thread. Please discuss the various accolades of LF elsewhere.

Woman of War opened this thread so she could share with us an excellent piece of insight on Tyrion, so please try not to sidetrack her good intentions with intangible discussions of morality.

[Winterfellian]

My problem with people who like Tyrion even after ADWD is that if they're still willing to root for a man who rapes a woman, then where the hell is the line supposed to be drawn? If TWOW came out tomorrow and at 3:45 I read that Littlefinger raped someone, by 3:47 I can promise you my name would be changed and my favorite characters list altered.

I like Tyrion post ADWD and I can assure you is not because I was rooting or cheering for him when he was terrorizing slave girls or raping women, so stop generalizing and making assumptions on whether why one person likes a character. Or even worse, erecting yourself as sole morality judge while attepmting to draw lines about how people should or not perceive a fictional literary character without the knowledge of the motivations behind this.

Personally I found Tyrion's moral, social and spiritual descent in ADWD particularly interesting, especially when he was painted in such a favorable light in his own POVs (even though some of his worst latent flaws are still latent)

By ADWD GRRM not only sunk this character (by his own admission his favorite character) to an extremely low place, but he left him there with nothing but his own demons (many of which he created himself) for company. As a reader I did found this particular characterization and the internal struggle that followed particularly interesting, even if I wasn’t sympathizing on a personal level with every one of his actions.

Post ASOS we see Tyrion stripped of everything that has defined him so far- his Lannister name, his wealth, his relationship with his brother, Tysha, etc., except curiously enough, that which he loathes the most about himself- his own dwarfism. For the first time he has to fully confront it. Hiding behind a Lannister name is no longer an option. He is forced to contemplate his own ugly self with all his added demons not only within himself but through the exposition to Penny who fully embraces the life style and manners “appropriate for their kind” within ASOIAF context.

From a literary point of view, when a character has had so much taken from him/her, what is left? Will he /she find the will to carry on or will he/she descent further? And where is will that will come from? Love? Revenge? Hate? Ambition? But this isn’t a typical fantasy tale no more than Tyrion is a typical fantasy prince. For such a flawed individual such as Tyrion’s, where will his motivations lay? Will he succumb to the temptation of hiding behind his dwarfism and delude himself into believing that because of his condition many of the whiter motivations (such as love, redemption, family etc.) are not valid for him? There are many questions behind Tyrion’s quest to himself in ADWD. This are just some off the top of my head.

There are many themes worth exploring in Tyrion’s arch. And I repeat, is not about cheering him on while he ogles Septas or rape slaves, but about appreciating the flawed character GRRM gives us with Tyrion and going along for the ride.

[Littlefingers In The Air]

This is not a Little Finger thread. Please discuss the various accolades of LF elsewhere.

Woman of War opened this thread so she could share with us an excellent piece of insight on Tyrion, so please try not to sidetrack her good intentions with intangible discussions of morality.

. fair enough. Back on topic, I think the OP is very well written. I'd never thought equate the struggles of Tyrion to that of real life dwarves. It was almost as if Tyrion wrote the piece.

[nirolo]

of my own making? I didn't tell Tyrion to rape anyone.

You have a problem with Tyrion fans who can look past what he does in Essos -- that problem is purely your.

[Dragonstar]

This is not a Little Finger thread. Please discuss the various accolades of LF elsewhere.

Woman of War opened this thread so she could share with us an excellent piece of insight on Tyrion, so please try not to sidetrack her good intentions with intangible discussions of morality.

100% agree

[Littlefingers In The Air]

I've never lost interest in the character of Tyrion Lannister. I simply hate him now where I used to love him. His descent into amorality in ADWD is definitely fascinating. What I find the most interesting is that when he finally does meet up with Daenerys, he will be in the presence of another very grey character to me. She isn't likely to be initially receptive of him and how this feeds into his current state of mind is one of the top storylines to look forward to next book.

[The Pain Yak]

he intentionally made sure she feared him, telling her it would please him to strangle her. When you enter into someone who fears you, that's rape. Please, deny it.

Ohh, you think that's the slave he raped? I thought you were talking about the one in the pleasure house just before he bumps into Jorah Mormont.

My impression was that he didn't go through with having sex with the slave in Illyrio's manor. He was intentionally trying to scare the hell out of her, not because it gave him sexual satisfaction to do so or because he was interested in raping her, but because he wasn't all that interested in her and had just had an extremely negative experience with another young woman with a 'profession' very much like the one he's dealing with. He even flat out turns her down at the start of the conversation, only to become crude and abusive when it becomes obvious how relieved she is not to have to 'service' him. But crudely telling her that he wants her naked and with her thighs open doesn't mean he'll follow through with it; it just means he wants some fear from her right now.

Consider the dialogue which immediately follows:

"Did you enjoy the girl I sent you?" Illyrio asked.

"If I had wanted a girl I would have asked for one."

"If she failed to please..."

"She did all that was required of her."

"I would hope so. She was trained in Lys, where they make an art of love. The king enjoyed her greatly."

"I kill kings, hadn't you heard?" Tyrion smiled evilly over his wine cup. "I want no royal leavings."

The only part of that that gives me pause is 'she did all that was required of her'...but that's rather open-ended response which doesn't necessarily imply anything sexual happened. Note that, all during his conversation with the girl, the implication on both their sides was that if he had sex with her, it would be after his meal with Illyrio. Yet every suggestion during the meal is that he doesn't want anything to do with her.

[Pinkie Baelish]

IMO, one of Martin's bigger achievements in this series is helping us understand someone that's committed rape. Rapists are universally vilified, and rightfully so, but there aren't many authors that I've read that actually stop and try to describe the thoughts of a rapist, and their rationale for doing so. Reading Tyrion's ADWD chapters allows me to have a better understanding of how such a person's mind works, and I'm grateful for Martin doing so. It's always interesting to try and understand why people do such deplorable things. Roose Bolton's nonchalant attitude about raping Ramsay's mother is so damn callous, which is why I don't think it's an entirely realistic representation of what goes through the head of someone that's committed rape. Tyrion's scene with the Essos sex slave was more grounded in reality for me.

That being said, I don't agree with some of the "TYRION IZ EVUL MONSTER" threads I see here from time to time. The wonderful passage that Woman of War posted has solidified my belief that Tyrion's fall from grace is not uncommon, and could have happened to many people in the same position as him. He's trying to live up to his reputation as the monster, but is receiving no sense of self-satisfaction from it, and this only serves to isolate him even further. I think there's something very tragic about that.

[Woman of War]

Rape is the point of no return for me both in real life and in regards to GRRMs world. I know what you're saying but I ain't gonna budge on that. You do not rape.

I am a woman knowing that most rape victims are women or girls (I am aware of the male victims of sexual violence) and sex with a child is always statutory rape. Yet I have trouble to understand you.

To me the most atrocious and potentially "irredeemable" crime is taking another person's life since it is the most extreme form of seeing another person as irrelevant and disponible. May it be by war "justified" or not, by death penalty or by murder, killing a human being is the ultimate crime, if anything is a point of no return it is this. The crime that by definition can never be undone. We may have different values here.

But most characters in the story have done or might soon do horrible things given our modern day values, and yet nearly all of them have options left by the author to turn their story, to prove themselves, to reveal the qualities they have in them, for good or for bad. No one's fate is sealed and no one's final judgement has been spoken before the books are over. And this is the great literary and philosophical quality of the books: not moral relativism but a deep humanism.

And, please, let's stop discussing the definition of rape and continue discussing the literary character Tyrion, definitely a broader topic.

[B'uckles]

And the Velasquez is fantastic.

[Castellan]

Thanks for posting this interesting piece WOW.

I think Tyrion is supposed to be quite fucked up, also has good qualities, and I think its interesting that he does turn, like a worm, once his family finally convince him he is nothing and they are prepared to behead him (bad timing in being honest, Jaime!). His position is that in order to psychologically survive his childhood he has sucked up what nurturance he could get and tended to on some level make allowances/resign himself/be funny about the inferior place he is expected to occupy. Then he reaches the explosive point of 'why the fuck should I'? Jon is similar in the way he has adapted to being a bastard but once he is offered legitimacy and Winterfell he has to admit to himself for the first time how much he wants it ... he actually finds himself slavvering and then realises he has warged into Ghost ... it's a great touch.

The way Tyrion's mind works is interesting - eg when he was 13 he somehow constructed 'what a great joke on me! What a wonderful present from Jaime' from his father's version of events and the horrible rape of Tysha. Its the kind of crazy leap that people's minds can take when something that hurtful happens to them.

[Howie Manderly]

Really helped me like Tyrion more