Defending Daenerys (aDwD) (Long post)

[therealbando]

'Omg guys give her a break she's a teenager obviously she makes mistakes' I'm so tired of hearing this. Yes she is a teenager prone to making mistakes, but that is still a damn reason for not wanting her to rule a huge volatile continent. Westeros isn't her freaking testing ground for how to rule. She's a teenager with negligible Westerosi advisors, she'll come to Westeros and rule like a twat but all will be excused because 'she's just a teenager'.

That's like saying you should let your 6 year old kid drive the car, and when people say he can't drive the damn thing you say 'he's just 6 years old give him a break of course he's gonna make mistakes!'.

You may find this hard to believe, but I agree with this :P

This applies to other characters as well (mainly Robb). "It`s not his/ her fault. He/ she is only n years old". If that is the case and he/ she can`t handle it than the respective character should not accept this much responsibility and power...

[LordStoneheart]

@Toxspecific, no one is completely excusing her decisions because she's a teenager; they're just pointing out that she is very inexperienced and young still. Most people with as much power as she has at her age were groomed for command, and even then can make mistakes and oversights (Jon Snow and Robb being the best examples). Hell, experienced people make some huge mistakes (Eddard, Robert, Stannis) She wasn't prepared to rule like heir males are.

Criticism shouldn't be washed away when accounting for young age, but it makes their decision processes more understandable and sympathetic.

[Tolsimir]

My biggest problem with Dany is that she has constantly made bad decisions and yet she is somehow still alive, just because she has dragons, while other characters get killed off when they are much more careful and capable then her.

[Rhaegarsjoy]

we've never seen any kings rule when he first came into his throne, even robert after only 14 years is said to be a terrible king even with a good hand, stabble kingdom. Dany made mistakes but she has all the good qualities a ruler should have kindness, compasion and someone who cares and fights for the common ppl, the same things varys is trying to teach Aegon. I dont think less than a year in meereen is an example that she'll be a terrible queen.

[therealbando]

My biggest problem with Dany is that she has constantly made bad decisions and yet she is somehow still alive, just because she has dragons, while other characters get killed off when they are much more careful and capable then her.

What are these constant mistakes that she makes? And when did the dragons ever save her life?

[Toxspecific]

@Toxspecific, no one is completely excusing her decisions because she's a teenager; they're just pointing out that she is very inexperienced and young still. Most people with as much power as she has at her age were groomed for command, and even then can make mistakes and oversights (Jon Snow and Robb being the best examples). Hell, experienced people make some huge mistakes (Eddard, Robert, Stannis) She wasn't prepared to rule like heir males are.

Criticism shouldn't be washed away when accounting for young age, but it makes their decision processes more understandable and sympathetic.

I seriously don't know how nobody has understood yet, if you are too incompetent due to uncontrollable factors, to do something, you shouldn't be allowed to do it.

And Robert could barely be called a ruler. Stannis on the other hand is described as an efficient administrator of Dragonstone, at least. Robb made some mistakes but he made some good decisions too. Anyhow, we're not talking about these dudes. We're talking about Dany. Saying she can rule Westeros because her mistakes are due to her hormones, or whatever, is beyond ridiculous; Westeros isn't her training ground.

However sympathetic I am to her journey and her learning curve (which has been pretty darn slow), doesn't matter; I don't root for her to take the Iron Throne because she isn't a good ruler. Whatever the reasons, she isn't.

[Tolsimir]

What are these constant mistakes that she makes? And when did the dragons ever save her life?

Well it all started in AGoT when she trusted Mirri, then she *freed* Astapor and left, leaving things to worse then before and after she counquered Mereen, she turned almost every nation in Essos against her, with her only friends being the Lhazar (lol).

Then she slept with Dario, despite knowing she is about to get married. She also doesnt have what it takes to kill her hostages, which could perhaps prevent the killings.

She is also very impulsive, doing what she thinks is best at the time and not thinking about the consequences.

And about the dragons, I didnt mean that they saved her life with actions in the books, but as a plot device. The dragons are obviously important to the story, therefore Dany is, which means she will probably live to the end despite being a 16(?) year old girl who angered a whole continent.

[therealbando]

Well it all started in AGoT when she trusted Mirri, then she *freed* Astapor and left, leaving things to worse then before and after she counquered Mereen, she turned almost every nation in Essos against her, with her only friends being the Lhazar (lol).

I agree, trusting MMD was a huge mistake, but it`s not like it didn`t cost her anything (Drogo, Rhaego and most of the dothraki). In Astapor she left a leading council, which wasn`t a mistake, and those other Essosi cities only turned against her because she started banning slavery, which, again, isn`t a mistake.

Then she slept with Dario, despite knowing she is about to get married. She also doesnt have what it takes to kill her hostages, which could perhaps prevent the killings.

She stopped sleeping whit Daario after she got married, and killing innocent children would hardly prevent the killing. I don`t consider these 2 to be mistakes either...

She is also very impulsive, doing what she thinks is best at the time and not thinking about the consequences.

This is mostly true

And about the dragons, I didnt mean that they saved her life with actions in the books, but as a plot device. The dragons are obviously important to the story, therefore Dany is, which means she will probably live to the end despite being a 16(?) year old girl who angered a whole continent.

I misunderstood your previous post then, my apologies :P .

[Isy]

Really pleased to read the original post. After lurking around the forums I was really surprised by the volume of Dany hate (or at very least the amount of posters who think she is a vicious, mad, self-obsessed butcher with no competency whatsoever). I get the frustration that she chose to stay in Mereen because as readers we've been used to her being a character that is always on the move (Pentos to Dothraki sea, to Vaes Dothrak, to Quarth, to Slaver's Bay) and she should hurry up and get to Westeros. But her reasons for staying in Mereen are clear -- she is there to learn to rule not just conquer. She has proven herself at leading an army and building loyalty but this makes her similar to Robert Baratheon -- great at war but sucky at the Game of Thrones. After all the destruction she has caused in Slaver's Bay (without any forethought to how she would leave the ransacked cities) she is right to realise that after making so much change she needs to see her changes through. As a 16 year old her ideals of freeing slaves are noble but she has lacked the maturity and advice of councillors that understand politics (Jorah and Barristan are fine advisors in terms of battle and Westeros but are no small council) so she hasn't up till ADWD realised her folly (which is why I think Tyrion will be such a boon to her). I would have liked to see her take a more prominent role in managing the affairs of Mereen and taken cues from her time with the Dothraki (learn their customs, follow their customs, instigate changes one step at a time) but this is a young girl who is frustrated at her mistakes, feels frustrated at her inability to sort the city out, feels frustrated that she has lost control over her dragons. She fixates on "look back to move forward" because she is looking for a way to fix the mess she has gotten herself in. All through ADWD she came across to me as unhappy. She doesn't want to be in that city where people hate her anymore than the readership does, but to develop and see things right she puts herself through this. This in my eyes is a selfless act. She could easily move her troops on to Westeros and abandon Slaver's Bay to the hot mess she left it in, but she chooses to stay. Her departure with Drogon at the end iof ADWD is not intentional and it will be intresting to see in TWOW whether she remains concerned for the fate of Mereen and keeps her responsibilities to the city and her people at the forefront of her mind. She has her escape and it'd be easy for her at this point to run away from her problems but based on the Dany seen develop in the books, her sense of responsibility will win through.

On the flip side, I had always picked up on the constant stream of titles she enjoyed using, however, until the S3 AGOT finale I hadn't really seen the "messiah" complex she has been labelled with here on the forums. Am enjoying re-reading ACOK at the moment and will focus more on this messiah-complex and the hints of Targaryen madness that readers here often focus on. I wonder whether by bearing these flaws in my mind whether my opinion on Dany will change more on re-reading ADWD.

[mindchap]

Really pleased to read the original post. After lurking around the forums I was really surprised by the volume of Dany hate (or at very least the amount of posters who think she is a vicious, mad, self-obsessed butcher with no competency whatsoever). I get the frustration that she chose to stay in Mereen because as readers we've been used to her being a character that is always on the move (Pentos to Dothraki sea, to Vaes Dothrak, to Quarth, to Slaver's Bay) and she should hurry up and get to Westeros. But her reasons for staying in Mereen are clear -- she is there to learn to rule not just conquer. She has proven herself at leading an army and building loyalty but this makes her similar to Robert Baratheon -- great at war but sucky at the Game of Thrones. After all the destruction she has caused in Slaver's Bay (without any forethought to how she would leave the ransacked cities) she is right to realise that after making so much change she needs to see her changes through. As a 16 year old her ideals of freeing slaves are noble but she has lacked the maturity and advice of councillors that understand politics (Jorah and Barristan are fine advisors in terms of battle and Westeros but are no small council) so she hasn't up till ADWD realised her folly (which is why I think Tyrion will be such a boon to her). I would have liked to see her take a more prominent role in managing the affairs of Mereen and taken cues from her time with the Dothraki (learn their customs, follow their customs, instigate changes one step at a time) but this is a young girl who is frustrated at her mistakes, feels frustrated at her inability to sort the city out, feels frustrated that she has lost control over her dragons. She fixates on "look back to move forward" because she is looking for a way to fix the mess she has gotten herself in. All through ADWD she came across to me as unhappy. She doesn't want to be in that city where people hate her anymore than the readership does, but to develop and see things right she puts herself through this. This in my eyes is a selfless act. She could easily move her troops on to Westeros and abandon Slaver's Bay to the hot mess she left it in, but she chooses to stay. Her departure with Drogon at the end iof ADWD is not intentional and it will be intresting to see in TWOW whether she remains concerned for the fate of Mereen and keeps her responsibilities to the city and her people at the forefront of her mind. She has her escape and it'd be easy for her at this point to run away from her problems but based on the Dany seen develop in the books, her sense of responsibility will win through.

On the flip side, I had always picked up on the constant stream of titles she enjoyed using, however, until the S3 AGOT finale I hadn't really seen the "messiah" complex she has been labelled with here on the forums. Am enjoying re-reading ACOK at the moment and will focus more on this messiah-complex and the hints of Targaryen madness that readers here often focus on. I wonder whether by bearing these flaws in my mind whether my opinion on Dany will change more on re-reading ADWD.

To be fair the show did Dany's character more harm than good and I think that's where some people get their impressions from, I say that because usually the day after a big Dany episode has been on the Dany hate seems to escalate. I'm not saying that people haven't read the books, but when you haven't read them over and over your not going to remember everything and the show can blur the memory of the book,

[Isy]

:agree:

Me too! Dany is not perfect but her story is one of my favourites -- who wants to follow a perfect character who never makes mistakes? Would be dull!

*snip*

She isnt honourable, and relatively just and consistent, like Ned, and likewise she isnt brutal and pragmatic like Tywin. This is my problem with her, because she doesnt know what it is she wants to be, and she is using an entire city as an experiment to try and figure it out. Because of these two competing theories of rule within her, it leads to compassionate acts like the side she shows with Missandei, her remorse over Hazzea and the attempted freeing of slaves juxtaposed to the violence of massacaring the entire free Astaporian population over 12 and the torture of a wineseller's daughters in front of him.

She needs to figure out what kind of ruler she wants to be quickly, because although her intentions are ultimately noble, thousands of people are dying because of them, and her lack of ability to implement her vision, if, indeed, she has one.

*snip*

I think the point of ADWD was that she is trying to do exactly that -- find out what she is like as a leader and work out what her vision is. I am a huge fan of the Starks (hell yeah the North remembers) but I think we have to be careful comparing Dany (a 16 year old) with Ned and Tywin who are much older with much more experience at leading (in times of peace and war). If we compare Dany with Joffrey, Theon, Margarey, Arianne, Robb, Jon (ie. those closer in age to Dany) who have also been thrown into leadership roles early on, then we can have more of a fair comparison of leadership styles, ideals, capabilties etc...

[Isy]

To be fair the show did Dany's character more harm than good and I think that's where some people get their impressions from, I say that because usually the day after a big Dany episode has been on the Dany hate seems to escalate. I'm not saying that people haven't read the books, but when you haven't read them over and over your not going to remember everything and the show can blur the memory of the book,

Absolutely. It is a bit of a relief re-reading ACOK at the moment, because the show really can alter how I perceive characters. In particular, I find the shows white-washing of a swathe of characters frustrating. Anyways that is a whole different thread!! :D

[Toxspecific]

'Who wants to follow a perfect character?' Of course that would be dull, but what is even more dull is following an imperfect character who learns as slowly as she does. Her storyline can't top the other storylines of characters in any regard. Redemption arc? Theon/Jaime. Noob starting the path to developing to political pro storyline? Sansa Stark. Full on fighting, intense storyline?

[Mulled Wino]

Dany has had a very different story than anyone else. Imagine what Stannis or Robb or Joffery or Tommen would do in her shoes? Would they have even attemped helping the slaves? I've never claimed Dany is perfect. I'm very aware she has flaws. I just don't find her any worse than anyone else (I'm talking about leaders here). In fact, she's the I only leader that shows any concern for the small folk what so ever. The rest walk over them, slaughter them, cause them to starve. So ye, of the available options I see Dany as a lesser of evils if you will. She's learning from her mistakes, and the mistakes of slavers bay will most likely not happen in Westros because they don't have slavers. I don't see her hanging lords up with their guts spilling out. She won't feel the need for that level of vengeance because they won't be hanging children to scare off her approach.

she doesnt hang lords up with their guts out but she does do that to slavers and her enemies.

Stannis most definitely shows that he cares about the smallfolk. Have you even read any of his chapters at the wall? A smallfolk is his freakin hand.

Its hilarious that you are claiming that none of the other candidates from westeros would do anything about the slaves. Slavery is aboloshed in westeros. Ned was going to kill Jorah over it. Stop creating completely invalid arguments. You've done that in every single post in your back an forth with Danm

[Isy]

'Who wants to follow a perfect character?' Of course that would be dull, but what is even more dull is following an imperfect character who learns as slowly as she does. Her storyline can't top the other storylines of characters in any regard. Redemption arc? Theon/Jaime. Noob starting the path to developing to political pro storyline? Sansa Stark. Full on fighting, intense storyline?

I see Dany's as the story of a child bride who gradually finds her voice and stands up for her ideals. Her story was one of the most fast paced of AGOT and ASOS, and during her journey she has gone from an innocent child to Khaleesi, to learning to lead and bargain, to evtnually commanding her armies. I love Sansa and am keen to see her develop into a political pro, but I would argue that her "learning" is far far slower than Dany's; with Sansa we have the long-game, we see her development subtely and spread out. With Dany we have seen her develop the ability to lead, negotiate, command within te first three books - this is damn fast growth for a character who starts the series pining for a house with a red door and who is mentally and physically abused by her brother. While ADWD really hits the brake on her development, I would still argue she is trying to do the right thing by staying in Mereen and that while she makes many a mistake, each of those mistakes will become a lesson learnt and add to her overall development.

[Mulled Wino]

As far as the topic at hand (Mereen), its unforgivable that she goes backwards in the training of her dragons, and that she can't contain the Harpy. The deal she makes with Hizzy is beyond stupid.

[C0bR]

Would she stay in Meereen "to protect her children" if she at that moment had means and mental capability to go to conquer and rule Westeros?

Just askin'

[Roadside Rose]

Why are we trying to justify Dany's actions? There are so many ASOIAF characters who have done questionable things. But rarely is there so much argument on any of their actions. Some like them, some dislike them. In the same way, some will like Dany, some will dislike Dany. You cannot expect everyone to be on the same boat.

[Dragon Roast]

This is my problem with her, because she doesnt know what it is she wants to be...

I found Dany's chapters in Dance to be some of the best, but I think you hit the problem that many have with her character on the head when you said that "she doesn't know what it is she wants to be".

Trying to sort out who she is, who she should be and who she wants to be was her narrative arc in the book. And yet, that was the narrative arc for pretty much most of the main and POV characters in Feast/Dance. Dany's arc was just the most extreme in exploring the doubt, challenges and indecisiveness of a POV character and the cascading nature of the problems it caused for her and everybody around her.

Still, her story arc was thematically very similar to that of most characters. They all faced doubt, challenge, crisis and a need to discover who they really are and what they want as the only way to move forward. From Jamie to Cersie to Stannis to Jon to Davos to Tyrion to Barristan to all the rest--setting aside doubt and accepting who you are--knowing who you are and what you must do--becomes the only option they have to face the situation they find themselves in by the end of Feast/Dance. Some will be more successful at this than others, while some will never figure it out and suffer the consequences (see Martell, Quentyn), but all of them have made journeys similar to Dany's.

Her final chapter in Dance was pretty amazing. It suggests that she has made a choice and accepted who she is and her words, "Fire and Blood". I think the wishy-washy Dany is gone, but to be a credible character for the challenges ahead, she needed to discover who she is--and that is what her chapters in Dance were all about. The same could be said for Sansa, Arya, Bran, Jon, Sam, Tyrion, Jamie and so many others. Now the doubt is burnt away.

TWOW will be a lot of fun. I hope George is writing today...

Cheers

[Nictarion]

My biggest problem with Dany is that she has constantly made bad decisions and yet she is somehow still alive, just because she has dragons, while other characters get killed off when they are much more careful and capable then her.

C'mon, she's hardly the only character with plot armor. Tyrion, Jon, Arya, all should have been dead many times over by now. Jon has so much , that nobody even believes he's dead after being stabbed four times.