Americanisms

[Florina Laufeyson]

Only women. I have never, EVER heard a man called a "Cunt".

I have. Frequently. While the word is the Terrible Awful™ in this country (murika), people do use it as a more universal mega insult. I know i do. :devil: That word has no gender barriers with me!

they actually do. Harry Potter for example, Britain had the Philosopher's stone, American had Sorcerer's stone. The changes may not be as noticeable to Americans as Brits since our country is so large with many varieties of words being changed due to regional cultures. Here in Northern California we use hella as a substitut for very or a lot, most people in other parts of the country or state even thini it's weird. My cousins in Michigan for example hate it.

Ehh. After the first three Harry Potter books, the books dont have any Americanisms in them anymore and are pretty much the same as the British ones save for the covers. At least i think so. Its only the first three HP books that received some altering.

[TheMysteriousOne]

GRRM does use some terms that are British as well, though because half of the expressions that are used in the novels are ones that I've never heard or used before and I'm American.

[Dany Girl]

Ehh. After the first three Harry Potter books, the books dont have any Americanisms in them anymore and are pretty much the same as the British ones save for the covers. At least i think so. Its only the first three HP books that received some altering.

I've never read them side by side to tell, nor have I read ASOIAF side by side, it was just an example of one clear incidence. I feel like American stories get changed more going to other countries than the other way around.

[Pharnavaziani]

I didn't say exact, just influenced. The reason I say that is because of the native Americans tendency to move around a lot, following the buffalo herds and other factors such as weather coming into play. Also the Dothraki have "wise women" like many tribes had. They cannot go to war until they get blessing from their wise ones, who get it from the gods/ancestors.

....but this still has the problem of treating the thousands of different nations of the Americas like that had a single culture. The Pueblo peoples, for example, were quite sedentary; as obviously were the Aztec of Mesoamcerica and the mound-builders of the Eastern Plains ca. 1000. Others, such as the Massachusett/Wampanoag people of my home state, tended to move short distances seasonally.

I don't know much about the Plains cultures pre-Columbus, but I imagine the migratory lifestyle of following buffalo for thousands of miles probably was accelerated by the arrival of the horse. I agree that there's an influence on the Dothraki - it's just unfortunate that the Dothraki are so unsympathetic and that the 'inspiration' GRRM might draw from probably hackneyed.

RE: 'brutality' - for centuries, Vikings were seen as nothing but savage marauders and worse; because they were remembered by the Christian kingdoms who (eventually) "won" history as enemies and aggressors. It's only in recent times that we've examined the many really cool things about Viking mythology, politics, and culture - not to mention their awesome nautical achievements. There's no doubt in my mind that Genghis Khan and his heirs did terrible things in their campaigns, but I'd be weary of judging an entire culture - or even those individuals - by the reports of Europeans likely terrified of invasion.

Another American theme in these books is eating way too much without getting the corresponding exercise...

HAH! Way too true.

[Dany Girl]

....but this still has the problem of treating the thousands of different nations of the Americas like that had a single culture. The Pueblo peoples, for example, were quite sedentary; as obviously were the Aztec of Mesoamcerica and the mound-builders of the Eastern Plains ca. 1000. Others, such as the Massachusett/Wampanoag people of my home state, tended to move short distances seasonally.

I don't know much about the Plains cultures pre-Columbus, but I imagine the migratory lifestyle of following buffalo for thousands of miles probably was accelerated by the arrival of the horse. I agree that there's an influence on the Dothraki - it's just unfortunate that the Dothraki are so unsympathetic and that the 'inspiration' GRRM might draw from probably hackneyed.

RE: 'brutality' - for centuries, Vikings were seen as nothing but savage marauders and worse; because they were remembered by the Christian kingdoms who (eventually) "won" history as enemies and aggressors. It's only in recent times that we've examined the many really cool things about Viking mythology, politics, and culture - not to mention their awesome nautical achievements. There's no doubt in my mind that Genghis Khan and his heirs did terrible things in their campaigns, but I'd be weary of judging an entire culture - or even those individuals - by the reports of Europeans likely terrified of invasion.

HAH! Way too true.

well I apologies if you take my comparison as something negative, it's not meant to be. I don't think the dothraki are an evil race, just an ignorant one (NOT calling Native Americans ignorant AT ALL). They don't like change and are very superstitious. I'm sure a lot of factors and inspirations/influences went into the idea of their society. I actually find them interesting because they are so unlike any other society we've seen in GRRM's world. From the Free Cities to Slaver's Bay to Westros to Quarth, the rest seem much more "modern" in the way they live. I think the Dothraki come almost as an example of all the negative stereotypes for all migratory people in history.

[Red Raven]

The Dothraki per GRRM:

The Dothraki were actually fashioned as an amalgam of a number of steppe and plains cultures... Mongols and Huns, certainly, but also Alans, Sioux, Cheyenne, and various other Amerindian tribes... seasoned with a dash of pure fantasy. So any resemblance to Arabs or Turks is coincidental. Well, except to the extent that the Turks were also originally horsemen of the steppes, not unlike the Alans, Huns, and the rest.

...

In general, though, while I do draw inspiration from history, I try to avoid direct one-for-one transplants, whether of individuals or of entire cultures. Just as it not correct to say that Robert was Henry VIII or Edward IV, it would not be correct to say that the Dothraki are Mongols.

http://grrm.livejour...65240#t15365240

[Pharnavaziani]

I think the Dothraki come almost as an example of all the negative stereotypes for all migratory people in history.

The Dothraki per GRRM:

I think that's actually a brilliant point, though coming from a sedentary culture I think our treatment of migratory people is pretty terrible. To this day, Romani "Gypsy" people suffer pretty blatantly racist legal discrimination in some parts of Europe, and our associations of, say, 'civilization' with enlightened goodness are pretty historically unfounded and unfair. GRRM does a good job showing us the lie in the idea that civilized Westeros is in any way 'chivalrous', but I do think his Dothraki - however well-thought out - come across as flat and very much reflecting an unfortunate bias.

I suppose the Lhazarene might make a cool counter-point to the Dothraki - but I can't actually remember if they're migratory, sedentary, or both. <grumble> why did I leave aGoT at home </grumble>

Thanks, Red Raven, for the confirmation.

[Dany Girl]

I think that's actually a brilliant point, though coming from a sedentary culture I think our treatment of migratory people is pretty terrible. To this day, Romani "Gypsy" people suffer pretty blatantly racist legal discrimination in some parts of Europe, and our associations of, say, 'civilization' with enlightened goodness are pretty historically unfounded and unfair. GRRM does a good job showing us the lie in the idea that civilized Westeros is in any way 'chivalrous', but I do think his Dothraki - however well-thought out - come across as flat and very much reflecting an unfortunate bias.

I suppose the Lhazarene might make a cool counter-point to the Dothraki - but I can't actually remember if they're migratory, sedentary, or both. <grumble> why did I leave aGoT at home </grumble>

Thanks, Red Raven, for the confirmation.

I agree whole heartedly thst the way migratory people in real life has been horrible! It's disgusting really. Also I agree that the Dothraki come off as flat and unlikeable. It would have been better if we understood their motivation for their actions. Instead they come off as ignorant and unwilling to change even a little.

[Red Raven]

it's just unfortunate that the Dothraki are so unsympathetic and that the 'inspiration' GRRM might draw from probably hackneyed.

I disagree. The Dothraki aren't any more brutal or violent or "savage" than the people of Westeros. The Westerosi just dress up and live in castles, beyond that the core of who they are really aren't that much different. Drogo showed himself to be an intelligent strategist and a loving husband which is more than can be said about many of the warlords running around Westeros.

They're basically the Ironborn on horseback except they do a better job of honoring truces and agreements and, unlike Balon, Drogo isn't a dick.

[Pharnavaziani]

I disagree. The Dothraki aren't any more brutal or violent or "savage" than the people of Westeros. The Westerosi just dress up and live in castles, beyond that the core of who they are really aren't that much different. Drogo showed himself to be an intelligent strategist and a loving husband which is more than can be said about many of the warlords running around Westeros.

They're basically the Ironborn on horseback except they do a better job of honoring truces and agreements and, unlike Balon, Drogo isn't a dick.

Hmm. Touche. Still, I do find them to be irritatingly generic and their overall place in the world of ASOIAF troubling. But yeah: at least they're not Ironborn, who are so ridiculous in so many ways. And their magic ability to conjure boats out of thin air is....bleh.

[Usrnmhsnomning]

I have. Frequently. While the word is the Terrible Awful™ in this country (murika), people do use it as a more universal mega insult. I know i do. :devil: That word has no gender barriers with me!

In regards to this, in New Zealand and Australia you'll find cunt is used heavily. It's still probably seen as the worst swear word, but it's not as taboo as it used to be. It's quite common, to be honest.

[Dany Girl]

In regards to this, in New Zealand and Australia you'll find cunt is used heavily. It's still probably seen as the worst swear word, but it's not as taboo as it used to be. It's quite common, to be honest.

I find this to be true here in America, but the intent when using it is to be very insulting. When I was a freshman in high school (15ish years ago) a guy called me a cunt so I punched him in the balls, and didn't get in trouble for it. Now if I get called a cunt it really doesn't effect me because it's become much more normal.

[Riptide]

Another American theme in these books is eating way too much without getting the corresponding exercise...

:lol:

This.

[The Bastard of Summer]

Im American, and I have never ever used the word cunt in a sentence until just now. Ive never spoken to someone and heard them say cunt. Only time I ever hear it is on TV. Its not that I dont like it, but there are other words I use or have heard.

[Ser Not Appearing]

I'm an American... for reference.

I tend to think the 'c' word... unlike other insults that are considered derogatory because of the mere suggestion that one might be some allegedly terrible thing like a woman... is especially heinous because it equates to saying a woman, (to put it in suitably negative terms), is simply a hole to f*ck and nothing more. It strips her of humanity. She isn't a "lesser" human, she is nothing.

Fortunately, the word isn't used often in my experience.

I always found "American History" classes somewhat comical in school. All that time spent studying what amounts to a tiny fraction of true history. There are thousands of years to study, filled with world changing and world building events of common interest and shared history across the entire human race... but let's pretend these few hundred are fundamentally sacred and meaningful.

"World History" was always of more meaning and relevance to me... and I feel it is as much "my" history as is American History (see: recent past).

[thecryptile]

American history and Civics aren't laughable or comic subjects, IMO. Also, don't say the c-word or the n-word in America, ever.

On the OP, what does GRRM mean by "corn"? If he means maize that's an Americanism.

[ARYa_Nym]

Arya calls men cunts. Since she says camel cunts though I wonder if she doesn't know what the word specfically means. Lots of kids repeat things thinking they know what they're talking about when they don't. She probably heard an adult say it then started to use it.

ETA: & I've never heard nipples on a breastplate before this series or outside of it.

[Littlefingers In The Air]

*face palm* I just had to explain to a grown woman what moon blood is. Silly Americans not knowing references to their own biology.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Sorry, but Louis C.K. sums it up perfectly. Here in America, there is no way to make the word "Cunt" sexy. The derision we have for the word conjures up visions of decidedly unappealling female genitalia, possibly malodorous or malformed.

well thats you fucked up Americans for Ya' (j'king. said with humor and tongue in cheek sarcasm.)

As for me I'm a Brit and live up north to boot so I'll take the word how I choose to.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

<----- American

I've heard it used by both Americans and British and there is a difference, though less so now than there used to be.

The British I've heard have used it against males as a more coarse way to say "idiot" "moron" "jerk" "jackass"...things along those lines.

In the US it was virtually exclusively leveled against women as the worst possible insult you could imagine. In the last few years, however, I've heard Americans use it more often against males and more in the British manner.

Like "bitch" it's becoming more gender-neutral.

* * *

It's a little jarring for the characters to use "feet" and "miles" to denote distances because it sounds so American. I'd almost rather they use "kilometers" but I know that's backwards because metrics are relatively recent and use of the imperial system (that us Americans obviously still use) goes back centuries before.

In Britain we use Feet Inches Miles etc. I would Hate it if GRRM had used Metric that would have been just awful! he also uses Stones which I was grateful for.