(Book and Show Spoilers) Does anyone think the show portrays some characters more positively then the books?

[Mendoza]

I tend to zone out during Cersei scenes, it seems to boil down to "my son did it... but I love him all the same". There's not much really to get into. Others may disagree.

[Miodrag]

Tyrion, Shea, Cersei, Tywin, Theon, Dany and more. That is one of my biggest complaints, I love the show, but it needs to let their be more grey and evil characters. I actually prefer Tywin in the show though, I think he's an improvement.

But, isn't Tywin the most whitewashed one among all these characters you counted?

[Weeping Sore]

In addition to Cersei, one of my least favorite changes to a character has been Brienne. I loved her wide-eyed innocence in the book, when it came to her ideas about knights and how they should behave. I loved how she reacted in AFfC when she is forced to kill her first man, then sobs. When she kills the Stark man with a long, drawn-out gutting, it felt all kinds of wrong. It got the point across to the audience, and it impressed Jaime, but it was still disappointing.

Later when she berates Jaime for whinging about losing his hand, she tells him "you sound like a bloody woman." Book!Brienne would never, in a zillion years, make a comment like that.

I hear you on her killing the Northerners at the end of S2. This replaced the boat chase with Brienne climbing up a cliff and dropping a boulder on the pursuing Northmen's boat. Would have been hard to film convincingly, but I agree it changes her character to have her kill them.

The "bloody woman" line was a direct call-back to something Jaime had said to her in the previous episode- wish I could remember the quote.

[Broken Fox]

I tend to zone out during Cersei scenes, it seems to boil down to "my son did it... but I love him all the same". There's not much really to get into. Others may disagree.

Yeah, that first scene in S2 where she opens up to Tyrion was interesting because we had never seen that side of her before. Now they're just getting repetitive.

[Nezzer]

But, isn't Tywin the most whitewashed one among all these characters you counted?

I don't know why people say he's been whitewashed. The only "whitewashing" is that he was kinda nice to Arya, that's all. He's still a huge dick to Tyrion and still slaughters entire houses. He's still a villain in the show and I have to say that I enjoy his character much more in the show than in the books. Charles Dance is fantastic.

[Aeternum]

I don't know why people say he's been whitewashed. The only "whitewashing" is that he was kinda nice to Arya, that's all. He's still a huge dick to Tyrion and still slaughters entire houses. He's still a villain in the show and I have to say that I enjoy his character much more in the show than in the books. Charles Dance is fantastic.

Charles Dance is easily one of the best actors on the show. He captures Tywin's character so well that, even though the novel version of Tywin looks nothing like Dance, it's now pretty impossible for me to picture Tywin as anything but Charles Dance.

I know that Tywin's a bit whitewashed on the show (his fondness for ordering gang-rapes isn't really brought up on the show), but this has more to do with screenwriting decisions than with Dance's acting.

[Aeternum]

Michael McElhatton is another actor who, despite looking very different from the book character, is perfect in his role. Badly underrated, but just as good as Charles Dance on the show.

I once heard that high-grade psychopaths tend to smile with their whole face except for the eyes. (Don't know how true this is, since the "psychopath" label itself is pretty ambiguous) Few actors could pull off that expression, but McElhatton does it perfectly:

http://i.imgur.com/UO8qgBr.jpg

[Nezzer]

Michael McElhatton is another actor who, despite looking very different from the book character, is perfect in his role. Badly underrated, but just as good as Charles Dance on the show.

I once heard that high-grade psychopaths tend to smile with their whole face except for the eyes. (I don't know how true this is.) Few actors could pull off that expression, but McElhatton does it perfectly:

http://i.imgur.com/UO8qgBr.jpg

Oh yes, Roose is absolutely perfect! I believe that if he is given more screen time in the next seasons he will reach the Charles Dance level. I just miss the pink cloak, but that's a very minor detail. I kinda like his down-to-earth attitude in the show anyway. It shows the main difference between him and Tywin: Roose doesn't mind getting his hands dirty, unlike Tywin, who always uses third parties to do the dirty jobs for him.

Edit: Oh, and Show!Roose isn't actually very different from Book!Roose in appearance. Although my avatar shows him with long hair, his hair is never described in the books, but given that he is a health freak, he should probably keep his hair short, like in the show. And he is also described as having a very unremarkable face, like Mike Mac's. The only difference is that Book!Roose speaks much softer and his eyes are lighter.

[Miodrag]

I don't know why people say he's been whitewashed. The only "whitewashing" is that he was kinda nice to Arya, that's all. He's still a huge dick to Tyrion and still slaughters entire houses. He's still a villain in the show and I have to say that I enjoy his character much more in the show than in the books. Charles Dance is fantastic.

Imagine then how fantastic Charles Dance would be if his character was more similar to the original from the book. Which would mean, for example, that infamous nonsense with Amory Lorch - who was simply scolded for sending a raven with confidential information directly to enemy - was never put in front of our eyes. Or, that we never witness Petyr playing him like a violin in their only meeting so far. Or at least to see him preventing Olenna from breaking his motherfucking quill that he so enjoyed writing with up to that point.

I could go on, but, truth be told, he isn't exactly "whitewashed", because his lines from the novels are mostly there. Added scenes are problem. Not all of them. His introduction scene was Jaime was quite good, even though he was different than his original (I can't remember book Tywin obsessing over family legacy), precisely because he remained dangerous. In season 2, however, a large portion of his general hostility was lost with examples I counted plus his scenes with Arya. Which is really something I can't understand. I'd understand increasing his malice and hostility, which would've been self-explanatory in a show that is already skewed in favor of the Lannisters. But in 'humanizing' him (I'm just repeating the most frequent term used, though I don't think he's humanized at all; only made softer) I see no logic whatsoever. Maybe there is one, but I see it not.

[Pinkie Baelish]

Imagine then how fantastic Charles Dance would be if his character was more similar to the original from the book. Which would mean, for example, that infamous nonsense with Amory Lorch - who was simply scolded for sending a raven with confidential information directly to enemy - was never put in front of our eyes. Or, that we never witness Petyr playing him like a violin in their only meeting so far. Or at least to see him preventing Olenna from breaking his motherfucking quill that he so enjoyed writing with up to that point.

You know, the more I think about it, the more it seems to me that Tywin's likability in the show comes more from Dance's magnetism in his performance than anything else. The small council scene in 3x10 was as Tywin-esque as Tywin gets, but Dance's acting still made him extremely enjoyable to watch. Tywin in season 3 was much closer to the books than Tywin in season 2, which is something I wanted because I felt he was getting too popular with the fans.

[Joyful Union]

Or, that we never witness Petyr playing him like a violin in their only meeting so far.

Petyr and Tywin actually meet twice on the show. It didn't seem to me that Tywin was being played in either of those. He cut LF's bullshit immediately, and got to the root of the matter, which was how LF could serve him (by getting the Tyrells and marrying Lysa). In neither of those cases did it seem to me that LF was in control, as Tywin had little to lose with sending LF in either of those cases. Also, wasn't the second meeting the same as in the books?

[Miodrag]

You know, the more I think about it, the more it seems to me that Tywin's likability in the show comes more from Dance's magnetism in his performance than anything else. The small council scene in 3x10 was as Tywin-esque as Tywin gets, but Dance's acting still made him extremely enjoyable to watch. Tywin in season 3 was much closer to the books than Tywin in season 2, which is something I wanted because I felt he was getting too popular with the fans.

Exactly. Dance is a powerful screen presence, and enigmatic at the same time. Even in real life, when he guest-appears in live shows, I can't tell when is he serious and when breaking balls. Perfect for Tywin. Like: you're paying him, use him then.

[Mr Fixit]

Imagine then how fantastic Charles Dance would be if his character was more similar to the original from the book. Which would mean, for example, that infamous nonsense with Amory Lorch - who was simply scolded for sending a raven with confidential information directly to enemy - was never put in front of our eyes. Or, that we never witness Petyr playing him like a violin in their only meeting so far. Or at least to see him preventing Olenna from breaking his motherfucking quill that he so enjoyed writing with up to that point.

I don't understand. How was he played by Littlefinger? What do you think LF made Tywin do without him realising it? I honestly don't know what you're going for. The same thing with the quill. What about it? Tywin won in that conversation. Olenna yielded and broke the quill as a sign that no, she doesn't want Loras in the Kingsguard. It was a clear victory for Tywin. Should he have had Olenna flogged and beaten?

But in 'humanizing' him (I'm just repeating the most frequent term used, though I don't think he's humanized at all; only made softer) I see no logic whatsoever. Maybe there is one, but I see it not.

I completely disagree. I'd say your interpretation of Tywin goes directly against what Martin himself wrote. One of the points of Tywin's character is that he appears almost larger than life. He never smiles, he holds his children to absurd standards, he is implacable, ruthless, driven, merciless when he needs to, forgiving when appropriate. Tywin *IS* the Lannister coat of arms and house motto (both official and unofficial) rolled into one.

But that is only an image he carefully built up, one we, the readers, were exposed to through the filter of PoV structure. We later learn, piece by piece, that in fact on occasion he did smile. We learn that he, Tywin of all people!, probably refused to marry for duty and married for love! And at the very end, we find out that almighty, almost viceless Tywin did visit whores and even had them in the Red Keep. His son's whore no less.

And what is Tyrion's last thought in that chapter? Lord Tywin Lannister did not, in the end, shit gold.

There you have it! It is Martin, in his ususal doublespeak, commenting on the entire character of Tywin Lannister. He wasn't all that he seemed to be. In the end, he was, for good or ill, only human.

So no, I don't think that any of his Arya scenes were in any way softening him. It's only a matter of perspective and of willingness to see beyond preconceived notions.

[Miodrag]

Petyr and Tywin actually meet twice on the show. It didn't seem to me that Tywin was being played in either of those. He cut LF's bullshit immediately, and got to the root of the matter, which was how LF could serve him (by getting the Tyrells and marrying Lysa). In neither of those cases did it seem to me that LF was in control, as Tywin had little to lose with sending LF in either of those cases.

Sorry, I forgot of that season 3 meeting. I was talking about season 2. What I based my judgement on is the following: 1) the sheer fact that Petyr recognizes Arya but keeps it to himself without blinking; to unsullied viewers it can't help but signal that Petyr doesn't even sweats over holding something extremely important from Tywin; and 2) Petyr brokers the deal with Tyrells in front of us; when things end the way they end, Tywin's going to look played; in the books he's played too, but what's different is that we don't witness it, so everything is a much bigger mystery (which helps both characters, I'd say).

Then on top of that, just remember how Petyr was played/scared by Cersei in 02x01. If a viewer connects the dots, the picture of Tywin isn't that scary as it could and should be. Or, maybe the picture doesn't make sense at all: Cersei toys with Petyr, who's absolutely not impressed by Tywin, who in turn plays with Cersei as he wishes.

[Miodrag]

There's my answer, right there in your post. Book Tywin is an enigma. TV Tywin isn't. He was in Season 1. After that, no. He might be controversial (having fun in one scene, ordering deaths in next), but book enigma is gone. I interpret Tywin without any fascination with him as a 'person', but delighted with him as a character. My interpretation, in short: he's a man who was a coward deep inside, but managed to force the entire world to tremble before him. Now, I already discussed this view thoroughly, if you're interested, here's the link to that thread and my post:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/90336-the-psychology-of-tywin-lannister/page__st__80#entry4599069

Regardless of the my definite opinion on him, I'd say he's much less a mystery in the show than in the books. And dangerous men, especially like Tywin, have to be mysterious to be dangerous. He's more of an open book in the show. And I think that scenes like the one with Amory Lorch actually go against Martin's text.

[bloodsteel bitterraven]

You sound angry and there's no reason to.

I disagree with what you say about Stannis. I don't think he's portrayed in a bad light.

[Mr Fixit]

NotYourSir, based on your reply to my post and to Joyful Union's, you're really nitpicking and cherrypicking, no offense. Your argument is all over the place. And I really, as hard as I might try, can't see a relevant difference between book- and show-Tywin, even taking into account your "enigma" argument, which is pretty weak. Your entire reply to Joyful Union above is particularly ripe with some thin arguments.

I mean, okay, feel free to think that way, but I've read many your posts over the months; you can do better than that ;)

[Miodrag]

NotYourSir, based on your reply to my post and to Joyful Union's, you're really nitpicking and cherrypicking, no offense. Your argument is all over the place.

No offense either, but to me it seems you're nitpicking my posts. Which is all right, since I think it's completely legitimate to do that in discussions. Since I'm still working (midnight!) and overtired, I wouldn't bet my life on it that you're wrong and that I'm not all over the place. That's why I posted the link to previous discussion, cause for the life of me I couldn't repeat all that in any meaningful way in this thread.

But, even this tired, I still can't think of a single justification for Amory Lorch scene. Do you think book Tywin would ever act like that toward a general who did something like that? I don't. That has to be softening a character. Arya scenes are also softening, but at least she in no way represents his military environment. Amory does. If he's that soft to Amory, he's softened on TV.

[Miodrag]

@Mr Fixit

I just reread our little discussion. It doesn't look to me that my posts were so unfocused as you claim. But, if they were, allow me to try explain myself one more time. I just don't know which parts or points are confusing. If you direct me, I'll gladly elaborate, cause, you know, I like debating on Tywin.

[Joyful Union]

But, even this tired, I still can't think of a single justification for Amory Lorch scene. Do you think book Tywin would ever act like that toward a general who did something like that? I don't. That has to be softening a character. Arya scenes are also softening, but at least she in no way represents his military environment. Amory does. If he's that soft to Amory, he's softened on TV.

I felt he probably should have been angrier, and possibly would have been in the books. Also, I don't think he would ever have trusted Lorch with something like sending a raven. Tywin normally is very aware of people's strengths (apart from his children), and uses the right tools for the right tasks. Certainly a misstep in my view on the part of the show. But then again, he was always very lenient with regards to Gregor Clegane in the books. The man almost killed a Tyrell in a blind rage, which would certainly have damaged his relations with the Tyrells, and could have led to hostilities. As long as his bannerman were still useful, I don't think he would have gone to far in punishing Amory Lorch in the books.