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Lord Varys

[Book Spoiler] Varys and Shae

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Has anybody thought this scene through? Was Varys' offer truly Tyrion's way of getting Shae out of town so that he could start his happy marriage with Sansa?

Shae seems to believe that's the case, but nothing in the actual episode - or anything else in Tyrion's behavior - seems to indicate this. He laughs with Sansa but that ends with the arrival of the news about the Red Wedding.

My guess is that Varys is going to make the way for the ultimate outcome of the Shae-Tyrion situation. Making it appear as if Tyrion wants her get makes Shae even more jealous and will explain why she testifies against Tyrion and ends up with Tywin.

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I think Tyrion really loves Shae. He also really believes Shae loves him. Maybe show Shae actually loves Tyrion. Tyrion knows Sansa does not love her.

Tyrion is horny and hungry enough for love that he would never send Shae away.

Unless he realized their love was doomed and she was in danger. Which it is and she is, so who knows.

Regardless, the scene is pretty strange. It entrenches the love triangle between Tyrion, Shae, and Sansa. Or at least love and sisterly affection triangle, but that just doesn't have the same ring to it. However, it is also pretty unclear whether Tyrion actually tried to buy her off, or whether Varys really believed Shae would stop Tyrion from doing his duty. Or, maybe somebody else put Varys upto it, such as Tywin. Not a very long list of suspects, though, very few people would have the kind of resources to give a whore a bag of diamonds.

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I don't like where this is going. The producers are going to make a real mess out of Tyrion/Tywin/Shae/Sansa in season 4. Mark my words.

The truth is, none of these characters act like their book versions any more. Which really changes future events.

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Oh I'm terrified here. Varys basically told her, "you are in danger, you put HIM in danger, because you love him and he loves you. For both your sakes, take these diamonds and go. Live a rich life, free and happy somewhere." And she basically told him back, "eat me. I'm not going anywhere until Tyrion tells me so."

This has "will end badly" written all over it. I can't see this version of Shea betraying Tyrion to his father for promises of advancement, since this Shea has just been offered advancement and turned it down. But what DOES go down may be much worse.

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I read it as Varys banking on the Starks being wiped out, highjacking Tywin's plan to make Sansa's what if son the heir to the North and then of course bringing down the Lannisters (save for Tyrion, who he'd mold into Danny or Young Griff's hand).

I'm surprised this version of the spider, the TV Varys who is onto Littlefinger wouldn't have Sansa watched by his little birds. He'll look very foolish when she ecsapes King's Landing early in season four.

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Yeah, I think there's more to the situation. I'm pretty sure it wasn't Tyrion's doing, and if Varys absolutely needed Shae gone we know he would just have her killed.

It could have been a genuine thing and he really was looking out for her.

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I read it as Varys banking on the Starks being wiped out

Funnt, I never made that connection. I need to watch it again. Does this conversation occur AFTER the small council meeting? I guess it must do, given how early in the episode the walk in the gardens takes place, and that Tyrion was summoned from there to the small council. No reason to suppose that Varys wouldn't have known about the Red Wedding before the meeting, though.

I'm assuming that by this point Varys already knows about the Tyrells' plan to dispose of Joffrey, and is probably putting pieces into place to have Tyrion blamed and put on trial, with his subsequent escape to Pentos already a part of the plan. He can't know where Sansa will end up, though, as Littlefinger hasn't set that in motion, so I'm assuming Varys means to smuggle Sansa out as well. Shae is a complication he doesn't need, so he's trying to get rid of her, but he bears her no ill will so he's happy to send her off with money rather than kill her. I don't think Shae believes Tyrion had any part in this after this conversation.

Nevertheless, something has to happen to explain Shae's later association with Tywin, Varys can't possibly predict that Jaime will tell Tyrion the truth during the escape, and that Tyrion will immediately go to murder his father, and kill Shae as well. So I'm guessing that as Varys' attempt to bribe Shae didn't work he will try to make use of her to achieve his goals, and will coax her into testifying falsely against Tyrion to save his life. Or something. I doubt that she'll trust him after this conversation, but when Tyrion is arrested Varys may be able to convince her. Tywin will then 'make use of' her, and she'll go along with it trusting that Varys' plan will work, meaning that she'll never see Tyrion again. She'll probably be quite depressed by this point, and shocked when Tyrion shows up in Tywin's bedroom. She'll be wearing the necklace as a reminder of the man she really loved, and thus it will be a horrible irony when Tyrion uses it to strangle her.

I dunno... whichever way you look at it, it's going to be messy. Show-Shae seems to genuinely love Tyrion, the way I see it, the show either has to do the 'woman spurned' thing or have the bedroom scene be a tragic misunderstanding on Tyrion's part, and the latter option has more dramatic potential, so I think they'll probably go that way with it.

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I don't see any problem in a Tywin-Shae-connection post-Purple Wedding. Not even in the TV series.

Whatever is at the core of the Tyrion-Shae-relationship in the show - money or love - it is irrevocably over when Tyrion is accused of murdering King Joffrey. He can no longer protect Shae, his relationship to her will come to light (i.e. to Tywin's and Cersei's eyes) during the coming investigations, so that they would be unable to continue the relationship even if the trial would prove Tyrion's innocence.

More importantly, the powers in charge (i.e. Tywin and Cersei) could very easily accuse Shae as an accomplice in the show. After all, she is Sansa's closest confidant (who will be accused in absentia) and Tyrion's lover. To save her neck TV Shae can only testify against Tyrion.

And whoever believes that Tywin has the same interest in Shae as Tyrion did does not understand his character. He uses Shae for his pleasure, that's all. He picked her, she did not pick him (and that will be the case both in the book and the TV series, if they stick to the plot).

Especially book Shae never tried to seduce Tywin or advance herself by sleeping with him. She already completely ruined her own reputation during the trial. She is the publicly known whore of the Imp afterwards. Nothing is going to wash this stain away.

We should not make the mistake and believe that Shae has 'a choice' after Cersei and Tywin learn who and what she is. All she can do is beg for life and do as she is told. And that's what she does. Book Shae does her job in Tywin's bed, but she is not happy with her situation.

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I don't see any problem in a Tywin-Shae-connection post-Purple Wedding. Not even in the TV series.

Whatever is at the core of the Tyrion-Shae-relationship in the show - money or love - it is irrevocably over when Tyrion is accused of murdering King Joffrey. He can no longer protect Shae, his relationship to her will come to light (i.e. to Tywin's and Cersei's eyes) during the coming investigations, so that they would be unable to continue the relationship even if the trial would prove Tyrion's innocence.

More importantly, the powers in charge (i.e. Tywin and Cersei) could very easily accuse Shae as an accomplice in the show. After all, she is Sansa's closest confidant (who will be accused in absentia) and Tyrion's lover. To save her neck TV Shae can only testify against Tyrion.

And whoever believes that Tywin has the same interest in Shae as Tyrion did does not understand his character. He uses Shae for his pleasure, that's all. He picked her, she did not pick him (and that will be the case both in the book and the TV series, if they stick to the plot).

Especially book Shae never tried to seduce Tywin or advance herself by sleeping with him. She already completely ruined her own reputation during the trial. She is the publicly known whore of the Imp afterwards. Nothing is going to wash this stain away.

We should not make the mistake and believe that Shae has 'a choice' after Cersei and Tywin learn who and what she is. All she can do is beg for life and do as she is told. And that's what she does. Book Shae does her job in Tywin's bed, but she is not happy with her situation.

Really good points there about Shae's lack of options once her relationship with Tyrion becomes public knowledge, and I hadn't considered her connection to Sansa as compromising her position further. I agree :)

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It all seemed , to me, a useless zero sum scene that could have been cut.

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It all seemed , to me, a useless zero sum scene that could have been cut.

Nothing zero sum about it.

We know Shea's in danger. We know that puts Tyrion in danger, because he loves her. We know Varys knows about it and tried to send her away. She refused to go.

It had echos of all the people who went to Ned Stark to tell him all the stuff he should do to protect himself against the Queen. He also refused.

This will clearly not end well.

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@The Idiots Lantern:

"This will clearly not end well"

Understatement of the year!! ;)

(Also, is your user name anything to do with the 2006 Doctor Who episode?)

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There is a potential Tyrion-whitewash here.

Instead of Tyrion killing Shae, maybe Tywin will discover her relationship with Tyrion (after the Purple Wedding) and hang her, as he so often threatens to do to the next whore he finds in Tyrion's bed, and then this motive of revenge will be why Tyrion kills Tywin.

I hope they don't do it that way, but, in a way it would make sense. In the books, Tyrion thinks about Tysha often (and ultimately this betrayal and the revelation from Jaime is why he kills Tywin), but to the show viewers, it's difficult to convey that (because you don't read Tyrion's thoughts). It's much easier to show Tyrion taking revenge on Tywin for Shae's death (a character viewers are already very familiar with) than for Tysha (a character that has only been brought up two or three times, and only once in a solid way).

The show is always going to make changes like this. This would be a major one. But I'd get over it, if only because I can see it coming.

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I think Tyrion is going to kill her on the show, too. I wasn't sure for a while there, but I think the whitewashing of Tyrion is to set up the contrast for when he falls from grace. This scene convinced me. They don't think the audience will pick up gradual or subtle change. They think if Shae is loyal, the murder will have more emotional impact. It's melodrama.

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I don't think how Tywin killing Shae would lead to Tyrion killing Tywin. We already do know that Tywin will kill Shae when he finds 'another whore' in Tyrion's bed, so no one will be surprised if he does what he says. The whole point of the plot in the book is that Tywin actually does not kill Shae but sleeps himself with her. He does exactly the same thing as Tyrion.

Tyrion's marriage to Tysha has been mentioned twice in season 3, this plot point is neither forgotten nor gone.

Even more importantly, the Tysha twist is the thing which causes the fallout between Jaime and Tyrion! This is event is as important as Tyrion's murder of Tywin. He wrongfully confesses the murder or Joffrey and thus breaks any connection he still had to his brother.

It would be completely stupid to drop plot twist like Tyrion finding Shae in Tywin's bed. Or Shae's testimony against Tyrion in the trial. I also can't imagine how Shae's death by Tywin's hands could fit in as driving force of Tyrion's murder of Tywin. It would have to happen shortly after Joffrey's death since that will be the time when Tywin finds out about Shae. And I don't see why he should not execute her at once considering that he did make such a threat.

Tyrion's murder or Shae and Tywin is caused by a consecutive chain of events and revelations that completely turn Tyrion's life and worldview upside down. First he is accused wrongfully of the murder of his nephew, and gradually realizes that his family, especially his father, apparently truly believes that he could have done this and actually intends to convict him. Then the woman he desperately loved (or tried to love) gives a testimony that humiliates and in front of the public. He is completely left alone. His last wager, the trial-by-combat, ends badly, and he is sentenced to death. Not enough, his rescue at the hands of Jaime ends in a revelation which sheds new light on the event which shaped his whole personality, especially his obsession with whores. He only looked for affection among prostitutes because he believed Tysha was a prostitute. Finally he realizes that his father is not the man he believed to be when he finds Shae in his bed.

If they do it right, we are going to see how anger and hatred build up in Tyrion. First during the trial, especially after Shae's testimony, but also later on during the conversation with Jaime.

This is the kind of twist the show is going to need if they want to give season 4 another event on the scale of the Red Wedding.

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Is there a chance that they could throw in some kind of Shea POV storyline where due to reasons of plotting, Shea thinks her best chance of saving Tyrion and/or Sansa is to seduce Tywin? Thus causing tragedy when Tyrion comes in and misunderstands what she's up to?

...Unlikley, this Shea has run into Tywin already and knows that seducing him is easier said then done.

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It just seemed like a scene added to episode 10 to give both Shae and Varys some screen time (everybody needs some apparently). But yes, it seems plausible that it sets up her decision in season 4 to turn against him in court and look out for herself.

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I think that even though Shae who may have been working for Tywin (wasn't made clear in the TV series) she loves Tyrion and would not betray him. For this reason Tywin hangs her (rather than Tyrion killing her) and this makes cause for Tyrion in killing Tywin. Varys knows Shae is not safe because Tywin must know about her and knows she is Tyrion's weakness so in turns wants to try to protect Tyrion.


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I dunno... whichever way you look at it, it's going to be messy. Show-Shae seems to genuinely love Tyrion, the way I see it, the show either has to do the 'woman spurned' thing or have the bedroom scene be a tragic misunderstanding on Tyrion's part, and the latter option has more dramatic potential, so I think they'll probably go that way with it.

I started reading the books halfway through season 3. But because of the show, I was under the impression Shae in general (book/show) genuinely loved Tyrion. That's why her betrayal was so shocking and depressing for me, moreso than the RW was. I had to think about why she would do that for a long time... it took me a while to see the whole 'woman spurned' thing

I don't know, the whole affair just resonated with me much more when it came as a shock, and it came as a shock because I was under the impression Shae truly loved Tyrion. So I think if HBO keeps this event in line with the book it'll be a lot more shocking and sad for other viewers, as it was for me. But imo it'll also be more meaningful- to me it sends a strong message about perspective taking, and it's another instance of a tragic consequence of decisions made/actions taken in the past (Bronn pretty much stole Shae...). So I really hope they keep it as it is :/. Anything else would just be sad, nothing else, and that's just cheap

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The book to TV translation of what really amounts to a lot of inner monologue by Tyrion has the potential to leave viewers confused.



Tywin could easily have Shae hanged, as he has threatened. And this coupled with Jaime telling him that Tysha wasn't actually a whore would be what the viewers see as the breaking point leading to "wherever whores go".



Yes it's not 100% book faithful but in the context of a TV show where viewers need to understand a character's motivations it is an easy change to make. Tyrion's depression in Essos can just as easily be attributed to Shae's hanging and his father slaying antics.


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