Jump to content

Active and passive characters


~No One~

Recommended Posts

This is true. Sansa is indeed motivated by her desire to escape and does actively choose to pursue the note (from Littlefinger). Though I might disagree about her being active from that point on.

I see as Sansa's chief strength her ability to endure. I'm not sure if that is the same as being active, though. Just my opinion, of course.

Yes, but she is active every single time when she went to Godswood to talk with Dontos. She is perceived as passive, and most of the time, she is in order to survive, but she is also active about her escape. She can`t help it being the well-guarded prisoner.

Is this the first time we agree with each other, Mladen? :P

I think we would agree on many things, nirolo. But, publically, yes, this is the first time :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Agency is contingent on a specific situations and whatever particular social power configuration a character is engaging with at any point. In Winterfell Ned probably has more agency that any other human character, but once in King's Landing he has trouble maintaining control over the conditions of his existence. Sansa goes from a naive you girl with almost no agency at the start of the book, to someone who learns to exercise their agency in numerous subtle ways owing to her oppression and abuse, to someone who will probably learn how to exercise the highest type of political agency. They aren't fixed categories.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

....

But all of that began when she chose to go to the Godswood and meet with Dontos. That was her choice and it shpos her agency - to run away from KL.

This is true. Sansa is indeed motivated by her desire to escape and does actively choose to pursue the note (from Littlefinger). Though I might disagree about her being active from that point on.

As Mladen said, Sansa makes the decision to follow up on the note, she continues to decide to meet with Dontos every time she went to the godswood, she decided not to tell anyone about it, she decided to wear the hair net, and after the purple wedding she decided to go meet with Dontos to escape.

By 'going along' with Littlefinger I meant that she decides not to confide with anyone and maintains the cover littlefinger has constructed (she considers asking Bronze Yohn Royce for help, but decides not to trust him).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh dear... I do believe I created a semantics problem without meaning to!!! LOL! Oh my.

When I said passive, what I was *trying* (unsuccessfully) to say was that certain characters are caught up more often than not in the events taking place around them

When I said active, what I was *trying* (again, with little success) to say was that these characters more often than not instigate the events that take place over the course of the novels.

Obviously there are NO characters that are singularly passive or active, but I was looking for opinions of the characters in general. My motivation for doing so was a reflection upon the positions of each character at the end of ADWD... no one but Arya, Mel, and Littlefinger seem to be in a favorable position. Everyone else seems to be up sh*t creek without a paddle. Hence my wondering as to which characters were truly in control of their situations.

I do apologize for any miscommunication. And I continue to be curious as to everyone's thoughts!!! :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think passive=piece and active=player. A lot of the passive characters are passive because they don't have the ability to act. IMO, a passive character can only be a piece if they don't act when they have the chance to act - an example is Ned, who had several opportunities to act to secure his hold on the Iron Throne, but chose not to, making him a piece. Sansa on the other hand, grabs up any opportunity to get out of Kingslanding (except the Hound's offer, but I can understand her hesitation there). Also, a character who is active doesn't necessarily become a player. Characters like Arya, who have almost zero influential power can't be players, because they're not actually influencing events in the game of thrones. And even if you're active, you may end up being a poor player (almost a pawn) if your decisions turn out to be terrible (Catelyn's kidnapping of Tyrion, Cersei making all sorts of poor decisions based on her paranoia).

As to your list, I believe that Arya is neither a piece nor a player (since she isn't even on the playing field at this point). I also think that Margaery, Tyrion and Jon Snow are definitely players. Dany is kind of a powerful piece/poor player. As for characters like Davos, Arianne and Asha - while they don't have a lot of mobility on their own, I would remember LF's advice when dealing with such characters: even the smallest pieces may have minds of their own, so it's wise not to overlook them or to assume that they'll always play the roles you've assigned for them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think passive=piece and active=player.

And even if you're active, you may end up being a poor player (almost a pawn) if your decisions turn out to be terrible

Yes, I tried to clarify. See above.

And I never said the characters actively responsible for their own destinies were making the right decisions. I think many make the wrong decisions, but at least they're choosing for themselves.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, I tried to clarify. See above.

And I never said the characters actively responsible for their own destinies were making the right decisions. I think many make the wrong decisions, but at least they're choosing for themselves.

Yes, I saw :). I just want to point out that many "passive" characters do make decisions that lead to them getting a little more control over their destinies. While some "active" characters, often make decisions that lead to their destinies taken away from their control. It's probably unwise to assume that "active" characters will end up as players, and passive characters as pawns. They all have minds of their own.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some more than others! Hence the thread + question.... :)

Fair enough, I guess. I still think the wording could be revamped, though. In this series, pieces and players have very specific meanings (that is, with respect to the game of thrones), which don't always equate to passive and active respectively. It can get confusing if you assign new meanings to those words.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You can be a player without being very active. See Doran for details.

Jon is an active character who is becoming a player, but could also be a cyvasse piece if certain information gets out. Jon's becoming LC means that he is now in a seat of actively playing in part of the game. His decisions (especially the one with Alys) could end up changing some things.

Sansa is passive, and for most of the series, a piece on the game board. How Sansa progresses in her current situation will be key in whether or not she becomes an player in the game. Its likely she will in some form. Sansa has made her own choices, as minuscule as they seem, that have put her in a position of great transition.

Cersei is a good example of someone believing themselves to be a player, but really isnt. Shes being manipulated without her even realizing it. Varys' removal of Kevan proves that much. She is being manipulated to continue to be a shit ruler in order to play right into Varys' hands. While Cersei has a lot of wiggle room for most of the series and makes a lot of decisions, these choices have been allowed to carry out due to someone else's plans. Woe be to her and her enemies when she finds this out.

In Arya's case, its too unclear on her overall role yet. She is an active entity, but her choices have yet to come into effect on the grand scheme of things. But theres clues being laid out that something she choses to do may effect the rest of the board so to speak.

Littlefinger, like Varys, understands how even a minute individual can be a game changer. Unlike Varys, he uses this to some end that leads to Littlefinger coming out on top.

. Dany is kind of a powerful piece/poor player.

Dany is in a somewhat unique situation that she can be both powerful piece and powerful player. Right now, it looks like shes pretty piss poor at playing the game, but that may change. For better or for worse depending on what she chooses.

Tyrion's entire strength depends on his role as a player. This is a guy who isnt gonna allow himself to become a game piece. He saw that his own father was trying to use him as such and well...we all know how that turned out.

Now i come to Doran. He is what a lot of people would call "passive" because he doesnt do much by himself. That, and it takes him a great deal of time to move his pieces making it look like hes just sitting around. But thats what hes doing. Moving his pieces. Arianne, Oberyn, Quentyn, the Sand Snakes and possibly even Darkstar were all being moved by Doran. Hes placing these guys all in key areas and near key players. Either to take them out, or get close in order to alter the game. A couple of his pieces got removed, but hes still got a few in play.

Aegon, is what i would call a pawn or piece. Everything written about him points to this. His introduction to the story, whos pulling the strings, even the people hes with. Jon Connington, while "active", isnt really aware of whats really going on. Hes trying to get his foot in the door (like sending that letter to Arianne among other things) but hes unaware of the overarching game. Septa Lemore may be...someone or something...who knows. But Aegon himself is just Varys' little king toy to mess with. Tyrion inadvertently caused a shitstorm to brew by telling Aegon to not go to Dany. I dont think Tyrion himself even realized that the kid would take this to heart.... So yeah a lot of people got their shithooks in Aegon right now.

Stannis is a player. Hes kind of the underdog, but its becoming increasingly clear that Melisandre doesnt completely control him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...