Reviewing Season 3

[Westeros]

This has been up for a week and change now, but we wanted to give your Youtube subscribers the first look at it: our review of season 3, just over 2 hours of discussion between Linda and I as we share our thoughts on the season. You can find the review over at our feature page, and of course as part of our

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Enjoy!

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[boojam]

A generalized comment.

George turned down offers to make ASoIaF into a movie, movies?

I don't know what he would have done in the unlikely event, probably impossible event , that Peter Jackson had of come to him and said I can make 7 three hour films from the books and I can raise 500 million dollars to do it!

From what George had said long long ago , it's almost as if he had figured no one would approach him with a venue for translating the story into visual narrative.

Being a seasoned 'Hollywood' screen writer , even with Dave and Dan's enthusiasm and seriousness did George ever give thought to how clever one would have to be to make condensations and truncations for an adaptation of so many pages of prose material?

Many of the criticisms I heard have a lot to do with the struggle with adaptation and invention in order to produce a ten season show as a visual narrative.

I have been pleased with the product so far, but not much elaboration has been given by the creators Dave, Dan and even George on the choice and structure of this elaborate prose work. (I don't get much analysis from Dave or Dan about the creative process from their 'after the episode' features.}

Maybe some day Dave and Dan will write a book or give a long long interview about their rational for the dramatic structural approach they took.

Once again , as a book reader, I have been entertained, and know some inventions and restructuring are going to have to be made considering the nature of novels 4 and 5. I will be watching.

[Frey Pies]

I think that, so far, season 3 has been the best season, though the others were excellent too. This season was a nice balance of drama and action, and got right into the middle of things from the very beginning.

Thinking about it, 4 of my 10 favourite Game of Thrones episodes are from Season 3.

[Dragonstoned]

Thanks, part 2's last ~25 mins were especially good and liked your thoughts on tv and production in general.

[Agromono]

I don't want to be another whiner about how you guys review the TV series--you have your opinions, and that's fine. But I think, just as a general critique, you might want to begin the show on the positives rather than the negatives. It's a real downer to start listening to it and five minutes in you guys are already complaining about everything. Anyway, just my recommendation--you guys can do what you want with it :)

[Dragonstoned]

To be fair the storylines were arranged by favourite first.

[Kittykatknits]

Thank you for putting this together, really enjoyed listening to it. I found myself nodding in agreement at several points throughout the two episodes. Your sorting order for favorite character story lines was an almost exact reflection of my own.

[Elias Moya]

The Game of Thrones....Why Oh Why Must the Good Ones Die?

Season 4 needs some serious changes... check out my article on yahoo to see who needs to be written off in Westeros.

http://voices.yahoo.com/the-game-throneswhy-oh-why-must-good-ones-die-12211942.html?cat=2

[Pinkie Baelish]

The Game of Thrones....Why Oh Why Must the Good Ones Die?

Season 4 needs some serious changes... check out my article on yahoo to see who needs to be written off in Westeros.

http://voices.yahoo....1942.html?cat=2

First off, welcome to the forums :cheers:

I read your article, and uh, just giving you a heads up, but your views on Sansa are likely to get you virtually eviscerated on this forum :P But I'm guessing you haven't read the books, so it's understandable why you may not enjoy Sansa as much as other posters here, as the show doesn't really focus on her too much.

[James Sucellus]

I read your article, and uh, just giving you a heads up, but your views on Sansa are likely to get you virtually eviscerated on this forum :P

*nods*

Sansa isn't as great in the show as she is in the books (Is anybody?), but she's probably the best King's Landing character in the TV series behind only Cersei.

If I hadn't read the books and was going off the show only, I'd want Tyrion and Shae killed. Though having read the books, I know Tyrion has some very interesting events coming next season that could salvage him.

[King of the Road]

Sansa isn't as great in the show as she is in the books (Is anybody?), but she's probably the best King's Landing character in the TV series behind only Cersei.

Margaery Tyrell is better in the show than the books in my opinion. I'm also going to go for Jorah Mormont to, though that's largely down to Iain Glen rather than any superb writing.

I really want to see more between Cersei and Joffrey before it's too late.

[Ramsay Gimp]

The Game of Thrones....Why Oh Why Must the Good Ones Die?

Season 4 needs some serious changes... check out my article on yahoo to see who needs to be written off in Westeros.

http://voices.yahoo....1942.html?cat=2

That was really stupid.

[Montespan]

Just want to say thank you Elio & Linda! While I do not necessarily agree with everything (that would be boring anyways) I always enjoy your reviews and I really liked the season 3-review!

[Jon of the Dead]

Good review, you make some valid points and I agree with most of it. But I still don't understand why you didn't like the depiction of the Red Wedding :dunno:

[pleonasm]

Elio and Linda - I just wanted to say that I enjoyed the season 3 review a lot. I think you hit on a number of key issues that plagued this season. I am far from a book purist when it comes to adapting ASIOF novel(s) to television or film, in fact, in some cases I think I'd encourage them to make some 'smart' deviations. What works in one medium may not translate as effectively to another.

That said, some of Benioff and Weiss choices are really disheartening. I couldn't agree more about your take on Theon's storyline and some of the invented nonsense at Kings Landing that was eating up so much screen time that could more effectively used to enhance other characters and stories. On the other hand, I am willing to give them a pass on the Red Wedding (shock vs. horror) approach, as I thought they salvaged the story as much as they could after butchering Cat and Robb adventures over the last season and 1/2. That was the great missed opportunity in my opinion.

What is clear to me after three seasons, is that while Benioff and Weiss are fans, they aren't 'great' television showrunners. I recently watched the last three episodes of season 3 from the Sopranos and the level of quality, drama, and comedy is so much higher than GOT. Perhaps its unfair to compare GOT to one of the most beloved dramas of all time, but I can't help it. Benioff and Weiss have the advantage of great source material. Unlike David Chase and company who were constructing stories on the fly, a pretty detailed map (or 1st draft) was provided for them by George. There is no reason they couldn't take advantage of it and construct a show that would be considered in the same league as the Sopranos, The Wire, Mad Men, or Breaking Bad.

Is the show good? Sometimes. Is it great? Rarely. Sadly, it increasingly feels like we look back and be happy ASIOF was at least adapted, but also mourn the fact that the adaption could have been so much better in the hands of a stronger writing team.

[I hate Dorn]

"plagued the season"?????

My god, some of you people. I have no idea what standards you're trying to hold this show up to, or what you're expecting them to do that would be so much better. It's the best thing of it's kind, ever put on television and yet people act like it has all these unforgivable flaws and the showrunners make all these terrible choices. As if YOU guys would know how to do it better. Or that it's wrong because it's not EXACTLY how you would like it

It's one thing to have an opinion on some things about it you think could be better. It's a whole other thing to blast it, as if it's some kind of sub-par, disappointment, that could have been great, but isn't because the showrunners don't know what they're doing. That kind of audacious presumption only makes me wonder about the person saying these things, not what they're actually saying. In other words, I just can't take it seriously

You're choosing to criticize something so great, so harshly, even though there is nothing else remotely like it to compare it to. Changes aside, it's still more faithful to it's source material than most adaptions ever dared to be. The writing is great. The performances are superb. The production is amazing. The amount of effort put into making this show. The attention to every detail. The set design. The costumes. The makeup. The different locations. The money put in the CGI. And just seeing how brilliant the finished product is and what the show means to book-readers and non-book readers alike, frankly.....I find the flippantness of some peoples criticisms to be offensive

Opinions are opinions, and everyone has a right to criticize, but a show like this, that tries so hard to get it right and given the love and support it's received, seems to be doing so, deserves a little more respect than that. By that I mean, maybe you don't have to try so hard to find things that are wrong with it. Or be so melodramatic in doing so. Because those standards your holding this show up to? They don't exist. At least not anywhere else on television. And the ideas you have, that you think THEY should have? Odds are really good that you're wrong

[Mr Fixit]

I personally just love it when someone comes along and says he/she isn't a purist and then proceeds to bash the show almost completely from the book perspective. It's simply hilarious.

[StannisEndGame]

Indeed, and provides absolute truths for the quality of the show...

[JagLover]

Agreed

Though in their defence they did say they were happy with one change (might have been the only one they did agree with) in the changing role of Gendry.

I think in the context of a show (rather than merely a book conversion) you have to look at what is popular with the fans. They criticise an over-emphasis on Kings Landing in S3, but look at the acting talent we have there. Yes in the book KL hardly features in the first half of ASOS, but you cannot have the same approach on the show when some people's favourite characters are there.

Also take their criticism of Arya and the Hound yes they did introduce a comedic element to the proceedings, but think about what Arya goes through in those last few episodes, which is even more terrible than the books and 'harder' to see on screen. Maybe trying to lighten the tone a bit with some black humour may not be too misjudged.

I just wonder how they will deal with the AFFC/ADWD conversions as those are books that require drastic surgery and changes to film.

[pleonasm]

"plagued the season"?????

My god, some of you people. I have no idea what standards you're trying to hold this show up to, or what you're expecting them to do that would be so much better. It's the best thing of it's kind, ever put on television and yet people act like it has all these unforgivable flaws and the showrunners make all these terrible choices. As if YOU guys would know how to do it better. Or that it's wrong because it's not EXACTLY how you would like it

It's one thing to have an opinion on some things about it you think could be better. It's a whole other thing to blast it, as if it's some kind of sub-par, disappointment, that could have been great, but isn't because the showrunners don't know what they're doing. That kind of audacious presumption only makes me wonder about the person saying these things, not what they're actually saying. In other words, I just can't take it seriously

I can and am contrasting it to best cable tv and network dramas from the last 10-15 years. This show is televised on HBO. It has the largest budget of any series on television. It arguably has the most talented cast currently working on television. And definitely one of the most ambitious. No one is suggesting its awful or even mediocre, what I am saying is that I think not only could it better, it could have been in the same class as the 'best' shows of the last twenty years. Currently, its in a tier or 2 below that.

The writing isn't always great. Often hitting the same beats over and over again until you start looking at your remote (please see the countless variations of the Queen of Thorns scenes from this season where she chew up scenery with Sansa, Varys, Tyrion, and finally Tywin), finding the least imaginative way to tell a story (Theon's torture/conversion into Reek), or not investing the time in the characters/storylines which will payoff in this season (see Danny, see Robb/Catelyn and the Red Wedding).

Yes - They have done a great job with Cersei (I actually prefer, unlike Elio and Linda, TV Cersei to her book counterpart, its much more nuanced), Jamie and Theon, but so many of the regular characters are either one dimensional or lack depth (please see Jon, Danny, Catelyn, etc). Tyrion, the ostensible star of the series (based upon screentime) is much more a white hat in the serious than the funny, tragic, troubled imp with a mean streak from the books.

And again, I'm hardly a purist... If it makes for good television and its faithful to the spirit of the ASIOF universe, I am fine with both major and minor changes to the source material. But make those changes because it will be great drama or comedy or improve the show. I've often said the books have a "Bran" problem, especially when it comes to adaption. You don't want to two to three seasons of Bran hiking, camping, and telling stories at a campfire until he reaches his destination. I'd have been fine if they decided to have Bran actually meet Jon Snow and perhaps his crew spend next season at Castle Black and help fight the wildlings. Its not book canon, but there is probably plenty of great material that could be developed from changing up his storyline and merging his with Jon's for a period of time.

The great missed opportunity to-date was Robb Stark. A non POV character who offered the tv writers an opportunity to not only provide a sharp contrast to Joffrey, but a chance to invent some amazing material that is only referenced in the books. Imagine the impact of the Red Wedding if they had provided Robb with 3 or 4 supporting characters we had followed for two seasons. We could have watched Robb grow into a competent leader (a proto-Ned) and develop the loyalty of his men (the Small Jon, Dacey Mormont, A Manderly, etc, etc...). Small scenes, characters sharing war stories, nothing expensive, but with a huge dramatic payoff at the Red Wedding when we watch them get slaughtered. Instead we get a non compelling romance between Talisa and Robb, Robb and Catelyn basically sidelined for most of the season, and then a shocking exit for all of them. Did the shock work? I guess... Could it have been better? Much.

Ultimately, its all about choices in the writing room. I think Benioff and Weiss are competent, but they aren't great. Lets not kid ourselves.