Reviewing Season 3

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

Hello Westeros! Read the books because of the show, so whatever detour the show takes, it will always have a fond place for me because it introduced me to the books. That being said, I think the RW basically failed to serve as the dramatic end of Robb Stark.

This is Westeros, so people who follow either the show or the books know butchery is common especially where the game of thrones is concerned. But butchery is not dramatic if there is little at stake. Gone is Cat's sense of dread going to the crossing, almost all the minor characters loyal to House Stark: BigJohn, LittleJohn, Dacey Mormont, Wendel Manderley, etc. Also gone is the bedding that was his undoing, along with the best line in the novel and mayhaps the entire series. When asked by Tyrion how he was so sure that the young wolf would take the bait, Tywin replied, "Jeyne Westerling is her mother's daughter and Robb Stark is his father's son". I get goose prickles even typing that line; it's so perfect. Of course we can't enjoy that line on screen because we don't have Jeyne or her mother in the show.

I know it's easy to criticize, but I feel that the RW is specific enough event in the books to allow all or almost all of those beats into the series. So, if I were king for a day, I would have started with the perfect RW sequence and worked backwards chronologically until all the events and characters were introduced so they could have been paid off at the end. What the readers got on the show looks silly by comparison.

And for people who said that the RW is their entire reason for doing the show in the first place, you'd think that would have been the approach. Figure out a way to do the RW in the most dramatically effective way possible and then work everything backwards to figure out what needed to happen before to get to that point.

Instead we got scene after scene of absurdly irrelevant stuff like Podrick's amazing sex skills and Loras talking about weddings.

[Jon of the Dead]

After marathoning the last 5 episodes, I literally have no idea how I feel about this season or the show in general.

The thing is, when I compare it to 99% of other book adaptations, in tv or film, is like one of the best ever. Similarly, when I compare it with 99% of the current tv shows (honestly, have you seen Under the Dome?).

But I just can't put my finger on what the main problem is that I have with the show. Maybe, there's too much talking and walking, and it's not that I'm one of those people that need fights and explosions every 5 minutes, but the book has lots of action too, and it's not coming through.

Well, the good news (kinda) is that when they adapt aFfC and aDwD I personally won't care about any changes. For those two books, D&D can go wild, I won't care.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

After marathoning the last 5 episodes, I literally have no idea how I feel about this season or the show in general.

The thing is, when I compare it to 99% of other book adaptations, in tv or film, is like one of the best ever. Similarly, when I compare it with 99% of the current tv shows (honestly, have you seen Under the Dome?).

But I just can't put my finger on what the main problem is that I have with the show. Maybe, there's too much talking and walking, and it's not that I'm one of those people that need fights and explosions every 5 minutes, but the book has lots of action too, and it's not coming through.

Well, the good news (kinda) is that when they adapt aFfC and aDwD I personally won't care about any changes. For those two books, D&D can go wild, I won't care.

I watched the first 5 marathon style, then the last 5 the next day. I would say that after watching the first 5 I thought that maybe this was the best season yet. But the next day I changed my mind. Part of the issue, of course, is that the show ends a season before the end of the book. But most importantly I feel as though they really excelled at the more subtle (not by being subtle, but rather the less dramatic moments) buildup and character development, and then didn't do so well at the big moment, highly dramatic bits, nor did it really seem to tie off loose ends in a satisfactory way (i.e the end of aFFC).

Fortunately the latter half of aSoS has a lot of amazing moments that should make it overall a bit more entertaining, but as far as Season 3 goes...I too have no idea what to make of it. I don't think it's better than either previous season as a whole. The season seems like a buildup for the next season, with so much time spent between Tyrion and Sansa's knowledge of the marriage and the actual wedding, the extended machinations between Tyrell and Lannister, the overall uneventful Jon Snow storyline...You really got to see how extended the book into two seasons, while necessary, was detrimental.

It's still great TV and my interest hasn't declined at all, but I certainly hope they're a bit more deliberate in places they need to be and less wasteful on ultimately minor details in Season 4, which having now watched S3 seems like it really should/could be their best yet.

[Miodrag]

The thing is, when I compare it to 99% of other book adaptations, in tv or film, is like one of the best ever.

But there isn't that many adaptations of this kind out there, is it? Pure scale of what was done so far (two and a half novels into 30 hours of television) is the rarest phenomenon, probably unparalleled if we consider the complexity and ambition of the source material. As an adaptation, this one is the most distinctive ever, so it is maybe impossible to find it better or worse than other adaptations.

Similarly, when I compare it with 99% of the current tv shows (honestly, have you seen Under the Dome?).

I'd say the source material all but guaranteed this, though some show-invented stuff almost managed to level the playing field again.

But I just can't put my finger on what the main problem is that I have with the show.

Perhaps it's the fact that it doesn't hold so well against that 1% of TV shows that actually matter as a competition?

Well, the good news (kinda) is that when they adapt aFfC and aDwD I personally won't care about any changes. For those two books, D&D can go wild, I won't care.

Be careful what you wish for...

[Jolene Brown]

I still think a huge part of the problem is their obsession (as I see it) with making the RW a big shocker instead of focusing on laying the groundwork for what made it so emotionally devastating. It doesn't need to be joke/punchline; it should be more like Greek tragedy, where you see awful things coming but it doesn't make them hurt any less.

[Jon of the Dead]

Be careful what you wish for...

Lol, yeah, you never know with D&D. Well, to be honest, they already butchered my favorite parts in the last 2 books, which are Cersei's downfall and Theon's redemption. Regarding the former, although I like Lena Headey's performance, she's not as fun as Cersei from the books, and her whole hypocritical relationship with Margaery which was so fun in the book, went to shit when Cersei openly threatened Margaery in the tv show.

As for Theon, the shock of seeing him as Reek for the first time was lost, and that is a big part of that story. The only part that I am geniunely interested on seeing in the tv show from aDwD is when Barristan takes charge of Dany's mess in Meereen. That and maybe the kingsmoot. Everything else don't interest me that much and I wouldn't mind if D&D want to shake things up a bit.

Honestly, despite having lots of problems with D&D's writing (seriously, I love 4-letter words as much as the next guy, but saying "shit" and "fuck" every five words doesn't stand for clever writing), I'm surprised that I found GRRM's episode to be the worst written in the season. Tormund's attempt at humor was excrutiangtingly cringe-worthy, Orell-Ygritte-Jon love triangle and Joff and Tywin talking about Dany left me cold.

Cogman is the best writer by far, they should let him write all the episodes and be done with it.

[I hate Dorn]

I don't know why, but I never felt the need to rank the seasons. Maybe because I don't feel like season 2 or 3 were disappointing, like everyone else here seems to. I read a lot of the criticisms people have of them, especially season 2, and I usually find them to be minor quibbles, treated like major flaws

Everyone's always saying season 1 was the best. Maybe, but the reason may not be that they got worse at writing the show or made too many ill thought out deviations. Maybe it's George's fault.......inadvertently. Season 1 had the benefit of being a tighter narrative. There were less characters to follow. It was easier to focus on certain storylines. And it was our introduction to seeing this story brought to life. Nostalgia is powerful thing.

It was different, season 2, but to me, just as brilliant and memorable. Disappointed? Only when it was over, and I had to wait again. In fact the only time I've ever been disappointed in this show was the very end of the last episode; the Dany crowd surfing scene. Good scene to end her season on maybe, but not enough to be the last scene for the entire season. But it's also not enough for me to feel the need to come on here and put down Beniof and Weiss. Some of you seem to revel in doing that. It's your right to do it, but I really don't understand it

When have we ever had a show like THIS? For those who read the books years ago, when you put down ASOS, did you ever think someone would be able to put this story you read up to that point on screen? George has said he wrote these books with the idea that it would NEVER happen, so he went as big as his imagination could go. The fact that these two were able to get this show made, by HBO no less, with the production value, the talent and the commitment to the source material that they have is a flippin god send. The end result is something magical. Something no one has ever seen the like of

Name me something on TV, past or present that you can compare this show to. You can't. Is it perfect? No, nothing is. Are there things people can be critical of? Of course. But why some people feel the need to nitpick, dump on, tear down and say things like the writing is bad......it makes me sad. Sad for the person saying it. It's as if they are blocking themselves from a joyful experience. Standing in their own way of enjoying a once in a lifetime piece of television as much as they could be enjoying it, because of this need to criticize. To find things wrong, no matter what. And to focus on them intensely. It sucks to see that even something this good is not immune to it, because in my opinion, it's not going to get any better than THIS

I love a lot of shows. Breaking Bad, Mad Men, The Killing, Sherlock, Homeland, Boardwalk Empire, Luther, The Walking Dead, Dexter, The Wire, The Sopranos, Battlestar Galactica, Rome, Deadwood. But none of them have ever grabbed me the way this show does. Partly, yes, because I LOVE the books. And the books will always be my 1st love, ahead of the show. But damnit, this show is amazing. They're doing it better than I could have ever hoped for. So unless Jon Snow water ski's over a shark, or we find out Dany was just some kind of ghost, who will vanish as soon as she helps everyone find Earth, I don't expect to be disappointed, any time soon

[boojam]

Name me something on TV, past or present that you can compare this show to. You can't. Is it perfect? No, nothing is. Are there things people can be critical of? Of course. But why some people feel the need to nitpick, dump on, tear down and say things like the writing is bad......it makes me sad. Sad for the person saying it. It's as if they are blocking themselves from a joyful experience. Standing in their own way of enjoying a once in a lifetime piece of television as much as they could be enjoying it, because of this need to criticize. To find things wrong, no matter what. And to focus on them intensely. It sucks to see that even something this good is not immune to it, because in my opinion, it's not going to get any better than THIS

Well... I thought ROME and the first two seasons of DEADWOOD were as good as this, sticking to costume dramas that is.

The old BBC I Claudius is as good as this , but in a totally different way.

I must admit as a TV sort of 'Sword and Sorcery' , or alternate universe medieval fantasy, can't say I have ever seen anything like it on television. The edge, the adult nature and Ripping Yarn nature really appeal to me. Breaks a lot of conventions , so undercuts my expectations and surprises me, I like that kind of thing.

[six]

I watched the first 5 marathon style, then the last 5 the next day. I would say that after watching the first 5 I thought that maybe this was the best season yet. But the next day I changed my mind. Part of the issue, of course, is that the show ends a season before the end of the book. But most importantly I feel as though they really excelled at the more subtle (not by being subtle, but rather the less dramatic moments) buildup and character development, and then didn't do so well at the big moment, highly dramatic bits, nor did it really seem to tie off loose ends in a satisfactory way (i.e the end of aFFC).

It's still great TV and my interest hasn't declined at all, but I certainly hope they're a bit more deliberate in places they need to be and less wasteful on ultimately minor details in Season 4, which having now watched S3 seems like it really should/could be their best yet.

For me it's the opposite, I felt build ups have been often weak. For instance in the case of the RW, I like the episode and the RW itself but I hated we saw so little Cat. She and Robb should have had the lion share of screen time this season, and it was ridiculous they swapped for a lot of nothing. Similarly, I didn't like they turned Jon's experience with the Wildlings into a mere love story; Jon gets to understand the culture of the Wildlings and to appreciate it, and it's one of the reasons why he attempts an alliance with them later on and treats them humanly. In the show Jon still seems fairly hostile to the Wildlings, but he loves Ygritte. Tyrion/Sansa's wedding was fine for me (mostly) and I quite liked it, but the build up was nowhere near as good as in the books, where Sansa is literally dragged to the altar. I hated the fact we didn't get the scene with Cersei where Sansa tries to run away, it would have been fantastic.

I'm not as into the show as I was when I finished watching the other two seasons (I watched them back to back, because long story short, like many I've read the books before the show and I'm not always fond of adaptations so I tried to stay away until another book reader convinced me to watch), but now I've watched 3 season I might as well watch a 4th...

[Dragonstoned]

I don't know why, but I never felt the need to rank the seasons. Maybe because I don't feel like season 2 or 3 were disappointing, like everyone else here seems to. I read a lot of the criticisms people have of them, especially season 2, and I usually find them to be minor quibbles, treated like major flaws

I like your enthusiasm and love for the show and if I'm honest I would prefer to feel that way. As it is though, I don't think a person can artificially change their expectations or the way they feel about the show so there's no point telling people to just lighten up or that they don't appreciate it enough.

Everyone's always saying season 1 was the best. Maybe, but the reason may not be that they got worse at writing the show or made too many ill thought out deviations. Maybe it's George's fault.......inadvertently. Season 1 had the benefit of being a tighter narrative. There were less characters to follow. It was easier to focus on certain storylines. And it was our introduction to seeing this story brought to life. Nostalgia is powerful thing.

This is just a wishy-washy excuse. None of the bad changes can be explained by the narrative diffusion - the storylines after s1 had plenty enough time, the same way they do in the books. The producers just decided to spend this time doing stuff of their own making.

When have we ever had a show like THIS? For those who read the books years ago, when you put down ASOS, did you ever think someone would be able to put this story you read up to that point on screen? George has said he wrote these books with the idea that it would NEVER happen, so he went as big as his imagination could go. The fact that these two were able to get this show made, by HBO no less, with the production value, the talent and the commitment to the source material that they have is a flippin god send. The end result is something magical. Something no one has ever seen the like of

We've had loads of shows like this in terms of scale, most of which you've mentioned below. What marks out Game of Thrones is that it's a fantasy show, but its genre seems to have lowered your expectations of it? Why not get over the fact it's an adaptation of an amazing fantasy series and look at it more objectively.

Name me something on TV, past or present that you can compare this show to. You can't.

If you're looking it as an adaptation, then try comparing it to Season 1. If as a show, then any of the ones you enumerate here.

I love a lot of shows. Breaking Bad, Mad Men, The Killing, Sherlock, Homeland, Boardwalk Empire, Luther, The Walking Dead, Dexter, The Wire, The Sopranos, Battlestar Galactica, Rome, Deadwood. But none of them have ever grabbed me the way this show does. Partly, yes, because I LOVE the books. And the books will always be my 1st love, ahead of the show. But damnit, this show is amazing. They're doing it better than I could have ever hoped for. So unless Jon Snow water ski's over a shark, or we find out Dany was just some kind of ghost, who will vanish as soon as she helps everyone find Earth, I don't expect to be disappointed, any time soon

Mate I would have a think about your expectations! I think Game of Thrones is really good too but what makes it better than stuff like The Wire or The Sopranos? Does it really not get on your nerves when there are deviations made from the source material which make it less good as a show?

[Cas Stark]

For me it's the opposite, I felt build ups have been often weak. For instance in the case of the RW, I like the episode and the RW itself but I hated we saw so little Cat. She and Robb should have had the lion share of screen time this season, and it was ridiculous they swapped for a lot of nothing. Similarly, I didn't like they turned Jon's experience with the Wildlings into a mere love story; Jon gets to understand the culture of the Wildlings and to appreciate it, and it's one of the reasons why he attempts an alliance with them later on and treats them humanly. In the show Jon still seems fairly hostile to the Wildlings, but he loves Ygritte. Tyrion/Sansa's wedding was fine for me (mostly) and I quite liked it, but the build up was nowhere near as good as in the books, where Sansa is literally dragged to the altar. I hated the fact we didn't get the scene with Cersei where Sansa tries to run away, it would have been fantastic.

I'm not as into the show as I was when I finished watching the other two seasons (I watched them back to back, because long story short, like many I've read the books before the show and I'm not always fond of adaptations so I tried to stay away until another book reader convinced me to watch), but now I've watched 3 season I might as well watch a 4th...

I agree, they're not good at the build up, which ends up robbing some of the most dramatic scenes of some of their power. I had no quibble really with the Sansa, QOT scene where she admits Joff is a monster, everything was there, but something was missing, her revealing the truth to them should have felt much more momentous.

The same with the RW, what they did with it was good, but it should have been so much more, but having already robbed the storyline of its epic scope by having no bannermen and turning the arc into a traditional luv story with a different set of motivations, it wasn't close to what it could have been.

And when they bizarrely attempted a big dramatic build up by making such a fuss over "boy" it turned out to be nothing, no one cared, it was barely a blip on the screen for critics or fans when it was finally revealed that it was Ramsey Bolton...all that effort for so little payoff...which could have instead been spent on Robb and Cat's last season.

Yes, GOT is a great show, we all know that. Yes, its wonderful that the books are being adapted at all and being done in such a lavish manner, we all know that too. However, that doesn't put the show above criticism when they make weird decisions like aloting more screen time to Shae than Cat in the buildup to the Red Wedding or when they make changes that are bound to have a ripple effect on the future storyline such as Mel having met Arya Stark.

[Khal-a-bunga]

The producers just decided to spend this time doing stuff of their own making.

We've had loads of shows like this in terms of scale, most of which you've mentioned below. What marks out Game of Thrones is that it's a fantasy show, but its genre seems to have lowered your expectations of it? Why not get over the fact it's an adaptation of an amazing fantasy series and look at it more objectively.

Mate I would have a think about your expectations! I think Game of Thrones is really good too but what makes it better than stuff like The Wire or The Sopranos? Does it really not get on your nerves when there are deviations made from the source material which make it less good as a show?

Yes, he should try should to be more objective...

In any case, I'd agree that Game of Thrones is certainly not yet on the level of shows like Deadwood, Six Feet Under, The Wire, or The Sopranos, but it sits comfortably near the top of that second tier of television that also contains shows like Rome, OZ, Carnivàle, and Boardwalk Empire (to keep this conversation to HBO shows, exclusively). But Game of Thrones has also only completed three seasons, and it's expected to take eight seasons to tell the story through to completion. As time goes on, I'm sure the divergences from the source material will continue to pile up as the story moves forward, and some people will be fine with that, while others will proclaim that the show is a failure, as a result.

That said, it's not true in any sense of the word to say that "We've had loads of shows like this in terms of scale...", since this is easily one of the largest television productions of all-time. In fact, the only television productions that rival Game of Thrones that I can think of off the top of my head would be mini-series' like Band of Brothers or The Pacific. It's cast alone dwarfs every show mentioned in this thread. They shoot this series in four separate countries, with up to four first units running at the same time. Regardless of how you feel about the series on a personal level, there's no denying the fact that no other show in the history of the medium has faced the logistical challenges that this show does.

[pleonasm]

As time goes on, I'm sure the divergences from the source material will continue to pile up as the story moves forward, and some people will be fine with that, while others will proclaim that the show is a failure, as a result.

I'm a huge fan of the book series, but ultimately in terms of the quality of the series, changes from the source material don't matter nearly as much the quality of stories they produce (the scripts, acting, direction, camera work, editing, etc...). A great scene is a great scene. A great performance is a great performance. Watching a well told character arc or story unfold, regardless of how faithful it is to the source material, really isn't that material to how good, mediocre, or bad, a television show Game of Thrones is.

And on that front, Game of Thrones just isn't a great television series. It has some great moments, often some great performances, but it continually suffers from poor plotting, pacing, and character development (with the exception of Jamie and Theon).

As an example, I'm astounded how much praise Danny's story got this year. Yes - there are two kick ass scenes, but not a single moment all season is payed to her inner life (what is she thinking? what does she care about? what does she fear, etc). In the hands of a great writer, some background on her distaste for slavery or her empathy with the slave classes would be provided. It would be contrasted against her desire to return home and take the Iron Throne. Not because its in the book (it actually is, but regardless), but because it serves to explain what will be driving her actions throughout the season. Why she is willing to takes the risks and time to do the things that she chooses to do. That is the kind of material that makes a character compelling, but moreover it helps elevate a series from good to great, or even mediocre to good.

Don't even get me started on Jon Snow and his misadventures....

[PatrickStormborn]

As an example, I'm astounded how much praise Danny's story got this year. Yes - there are two kick ass scenes, but not a single moment all season is payed to her inner life (what is she thinking? what does she care about? what does she fear, etc). In the hands of a great writer, some background on her distaste for slavery or her empathy with the slave classes would be provided. It would be contrasted against her desire to return home and take the Iron Throne. Not because its in the book (it actually is, but regardless), but because it serves to explain what will be driving her actions throughout the season. Why she is willing to takes the risks and time to do the things that she chooses to do. That is the kind of material that makes a character compelling, but moreover it helps elevate a series from good to great, or even mediocre to good.

I completely agree with this, and the worst part is that it could have easily been fixed by including excellent dialogue that was present in the books:

“Better to come a beggar than a slaver," Arstan said.

“There speaks one who has been neither." Dany’s nostrils flared. “Do you know what it is like to be sold, squire? I do. My brother sold me to Khal Drogo for the promise of a golden crown. Well, Drogo crowned him in gold, though not as he had wished, and I… my sun-and-stars made a queen of me, but if he had been a different man, it might have been much otherwise. Do you think I have forgotten how it felt to be afraid?”

[Khal-a-bunga]

I think Dany's drive to free the slaves was appropriately set up in the first season, considering she was tantamount to a slave herself. I don't think the audience is so short-sighted that they have forgotten this. Didn't she also stand up to Khal Drogo's bloodrider (can't recall his name) about the treatment of the Lhazareen? What about her dialogue at the end of the first season, where she essentially frees her remaining Dothraki followers, giving them the choice to stay or leave? And when (or, if, rather) you watch the third season again, pay attention to her reactions, not just the dialogue. Acting is just as important as dialogue in a television show, so it's not something that can be discounted when discussing these things. I'm not sure if I read about anyone being confused as to why Dany did what she did in season three, actually, so this particular issue may be your own.

As for Game of Thrones not being a great television series... Opinions, and what not. To each their own. Because while the show certainly has problems, that's no different than any show (or book, or movie, or... well, anything) ever made. The fifth season of The Wire is riddled with problems, and the second season only really works in retrospect (though it's probably my second favorite, behind fourth season). Deadwood introduced an entire group of characters that were - for all intent and purpose - irrelevant, during the third season. And the list goes on, and on, and on... There's no grand conspiracy that's blinding the majority of the viewers to just how 'not great' GoT is. You say a great scene is a great scene, and I completely agree - I just happen to think that the number of great scenes heavily outweighs the number of not-so-great scenes and dwarfs the few outright bad scenes by a pretty big margin.

[Cas Stark]

I'm a huge fan of the book series, but ultimately in terms of the quality of the series, changes from the source material don't matter nearly as much the quality of stories they produce (the scripts, acting, direction, camera work, editing, etc...). A great scene is a great scene. A great performance is a great performance. Watching a well told character arc or story unfold, regardless of how faithful it is to the source material, really isn't that material to how good, mediocre, or bad, a television show Game of Thrones is.

And on that front, Game of Thrones just isn't a great television series. It has some great moments, often some great performances, but it continually suffers from poor plotting, pacing, and character development (with the exception of Jamie and Theon).

As an example, I'm astounded how much praise Danny's story got this year. Yes - there are two kick ass scenes, but not a single moment all season is payed to her inner life (what is she thinking? what does she care about? what does she fear, etc). In the hands of a great writer, some background on her distaste for slavery or her empathy with the slave classes would be provided. It would be contrasted against her desire to return home and take the Iron Throne. Not because its in the book (it actually is, but regardless), but because it serves to explain what will be driving her actions throughout the season. Why she is willing to takes the risks and time to do the things that she chooses to do. That is the kind of material that makes a character compelling, but moreover it helps elevate a series from good to great, or even mediocre to good.

Don't even get me started on Jon Snow and his misadventures....

I agree, I've come to the opinion that either because there is SO much material or because D&D are kind of Baz Lurhman type guys, that the show really consists of a string of scenes...that generally hit the high points of the series or serve other purposes for HBO....and that the characterization that we do get comes via the actors and their performances, not from the plotting or the writing. That is why Charles Dance can infuse Tywin Lannister with all kinds of emotions and regal bearing but Oona Chaplin, who can't master a reaction shot to save her life, leaves the character vapid and unbelievable. And same with pacing, I can't tell if its the density of the material or if its the show itself. Defintely some of the way they distribute the storyline throws things off.

[I hate Dorn]

I'm a huge fan of the book series, but ultimately in terms of the quality of the series, changes from the source material don't matter nearly as much the quality of stories they produce (the scripts, acting, direction, camera work, editing, etc...). A great scene is a great scene. A great performance is a great performance. Watching a well told character arc or story unfold, regardless of how faithful it is to the source material, really isn't that material to how good, mediocre, or bad, a television show Game of Thrones is.

And on that front, Game of Thrones just isn't a great television series. It has some great moments, often some great performances, but it continually suffers from poor plotting, pacing, and character development (with the exception of Jamie and Theon).

As an example, I'm astounded how much praise Danny's story got this year. Yes - there are two kick ass scenes, but not a single moment all season is payed to her inner life (what is she thinking? what does she care about? what does she fear, etc). In the hands of a great writer, some background on her distaste for slavery or her empathy with the slave classes would be provided. It would be contrasted against her desire to return home and take the Iron Throne. Not because its in the book (it actually is, but regardless), but because it serves to explain what will be driving her actions throughout the season. Why she is willing to takes the risks and time to do the things that she chooses to do. That is the kind of material that makes a character compelling, but moreover it helps elevate a series from good to great, or even mediocre to good.

Don't even get me started on Jon Snow and his misadventures....

So you started watching a show, fully aware that is was going to cover a couple dozen main characters and like 60 other side characters, and your biggest criticism is that there isn't enough character development?

Of COURSE there isn't

They can't give anyone that much attention in a show like this. It's not about Dexter, or Don Draper or Tony Soprano. It's about a crapload of people, spread out all over the globe. You KNEW that going in

If I could find some logic in your criticisms, I would say so. But I just can't

[Miodrag]

Did RW scene make that big an impact on viewership as it seemed after it's premiere based on videos of fans' reactions?

As I recall, more than 5 million viewers saw the premiere in US. (And, this "reaction videos" phenomenon does look like a US thing mainly, so we can safely leave the rest of the world out of this calculation.) Let's say that 10% of those are book-readers, which brings it to 500.000 "sullied" viewers. Let's say 1% of those had both wish and opportunity to record some unsullied viewer reacting to RW, which brings it down to 5.000. Considering how unprecedented this situation actually was (due to both the highly shocking nature of the event that was expected and the sheer fact that it is expected by everyone who read ASOS), these numbers don't look unrealistic to me, especially because how personal-video crazy the global culture is at this point.

Now, I just searched Youtube for "Red Wedding reactions", and after 22 pages, each with 20 videos, it looks like that's about it. Let's not go into counting repetitions (and quite a few of them do repeat in those 22 pages) and fakes (for example, self-filming ones) and all those videos of not reaction to the scene but of reaction after, and let's say there's more than 400 videos on Youtube. Make it an even 500. Then double it, just in case that for each I found, there's one I missed. That brings us to 1.000 reaction videos on Youtube, which, to my knowledge, is number one video site in the world and surely The upload destination of every video of this kind.

If my calculation is realistic, or at least unbiased, some 4.000 videos are missing. Could it be that they're missing mostly because of the unaccomplished mission, e.g. they were never uploaded because the recorded reaction was not as strong as expected?

This past month, in every discussion about RW scene, the strength of public reaction to it was brought up, just as it should. But, failed reaction videos were never accounted for, and for an obvious reason: they weren't uploaded, so we can't count them by any means. We can only guess/calculate their amount. And if my calculation makes some sense, it could mean failed ones outnumber successful ones, which casts a rather different light on public reaction and on the scene itself.

[Mr Fixit]

Did RW scene make that big an impact on viewership as it seemed after it's premiere based on videos of fans' reactions?

As I recall, more than 5 million viewers saw the premiere in US. (And, this "reaction videos" phenomenon does look like a US thing mainly, so we can safely leave the rest of the world out of this calculation.) Let's say that 10% of those are book-readers, which brings it to 500.000 "sullied" viewers. Let's say 1% of those had both wish and opportunity to record some unsullied viewer reacting to RW, which brings it down to 5.000. Considering how unprecedented this situation actually was (due to both the highly shocking nature of the event that was expected and the sheer fact that it is expected by everyone who read ASOS), these numbers don't look unrealistic to me, especially because how personal-video crazy the global culture is at this point.

Now, I just searched Youtube for "Red Wedding reactions", and after 22 pages, each with 20 videos, it looks like that's about it. Let's not go into counting repetitions (and quite a few of them do repeat in those 22 pages) and fakes (for example, self-filming ones) and all those videos of not reaction to the scene but of reaction after, and let's say there's more than 400 videos on Youtube. Make it an even 500. Then double it, just in case that for each I found, there's one I missed. That brings us to 1.000 reaction videos on Youtube, which, to my knowledge, is number one video site in the world and surely The upload destination of every video of this kind.

If my calculation is realistic, or at least unbiased, some 4.000 videos are missing. Could it be that they're missing mostly because of the unaccomplished mission, e.g. they were never uploaded because the recorded reaction was not as strong as expected?

This past month, in every discussion about RW scene, the strength of public reaction to it was brought up, just as it should. But, failed reaction videos were never accounted for, and for an obvious reason: they weren't uploaded, so we can't count them by any means. We can only guess/calculate their amount. And if my calculation makes some sense, it could mean failed ones outnumber successful ones, which casts a rather different light on public reaction and on the scene itself.

Your mathematical gymnastics are impressive, they really are! And what exactly is a failed reaction anyway? Many people simply don't visibly react all that much if at all, irrespective of their true feelings. Is it probable that some were turned off not by the lack of quality, but by massacre of the good guys? Is their reaction also indicative of failure?

And you ask why "book purists" are looked down upon by so many. You are willing to go to all this length, calculating silly differential equations and a relative mass of the Higgs boson because... why exactly? Because "4,000 missing videos" tell us that audiences were put off by how D&D butchered Red Wedding? Your train of thought is something to behold, it truly is.

[Khal-a-bunga]

@ NotYourSir

Your calculation makes no sense. At all. Seriously, there's no logic behind it, whatsoever. We don't see eye-to-eye, that much has been established, but even if we had agreed with one another 100% of the time prior to this, your post still wouldn't make any sense.

Going by this line of thinking, the reactions to Ned's death were an even bigger "failure" than the Red Wedding.