R+L=J v.53

[J. Stargaryen]

Ghost's Shadow posted this in the last thread:

He is not my father. The thought leapt unbidden to Jon’s mind. Lord Eddard Stark is my father. I will not forget him, no matter how many swords they give me.

Someone had once posted a pretty clever interpretation of this line; i.e., that the Iron Throne is made of "many swords." In other words, Jon will not forget Ned even when he sits the IT.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

That is interesting That Winterfell and the Wall are described with all that iron, and the KOW with their iron swords. I think there is definitely something there. And I have to think that Old Nan is a reliable source with what we have found out from her stories in the past.

On a side note about Will in the tree in the prologue:

He seems to have an iron sword so maybe ghost's shadaow was right and the NW does all have iron swords, which makes me think it is for a particular reason.

I wonder if its a case of something they did for a reason which has been lost in the mists of time? As noted in the previous thread, iron isn't effective on wights (poor Will!) and we have yet to see it employed against Others.

[Pikachu101]

Even if R+L=J is true that doesn't mean people are going to believe Howland and that certainly doesn't mean Jon's entitled to the throne.

My pet theory is that Rhaegar was going to use Jon as a sacrifice to the Others :D so that the realm would be saved

So Lyanna took some kind of brew that prolonged the pregnancy (I saw this in a Korean drama) but the side effects caused internal bleeding and so she died :(

I want an epic twist to the story, not some crappy romance about a selfish douche and a silly teenager

[Ygrain]

Even if R+L=J is true that doesn't mean people are going to believe Howland and that certainly doesn't mean Jon's entitled to the throne.

My pet theory is that Rhaegar was going to use Jon as a sacrifice to the Others :D so that the realm would be saved

So Lyanna took some kind of brew that prolonged the pregnancy (I saw this in a Korean drama) but the side effects caused internal bleeding and so she died :(

I want an epic twist to the story, not some crappy romance about a selfish douche and a silly teenager

After five books by GRRM, what makes you think that this is what R+L would necessarily come to?

And, being born as legit R+L, does entitle Jon to the throne - but that doesn't mean that he will ever sit it.

[The guy from the Vale]

Even if R+L=J is true that doesn't mean people are going to believe Howland and that certainly doesn't mean Jon's entitled to the throne.

My pet theory is that Rhaegar was going to use Jon as a sacrifice to the Others :D so that the realm would be saved

So Lyanna took some kind of brew that prolonged the pregnancy (I saw this in a Korean drama) but the side effects caused internal bleeding and so she died :(

I want an epic twist to the story, not some crappy romance about a selfish douche and a silly teenager

Since we don't know Rhaegar's reasons exactly yet, ascribing him selfishness (or Lyanna sillyness, for similar reasons) is a bit premature, I feel.

[Pikachu101]

Since we don't know Rhaegar's reasons exactly yet, ascribing him selfishness (or Lyanna sillyness, for similar reasons) is a bit premature, I feel.

That's why I think Rhaegar was going to use Jon as a sacrifice ;) so cool if that's true :D

The idea of Rhaegar being a selfish douche and Lyanna being a silly teenager is what you get if you read fanfic. Which is why I want George to do the exact opposite!

Rhaegar should be like "sacrifice one babe to save lives of many"

And Lyanna's like "oh fuck :o I've made a huge mistake"

[Pikachu101]

After five books by GRRM, what makes you think that this is what R+L would necessarily come to?

And, being born as legit R+L, does entitle Jon to the throne - but that doesn't mean that he will ever sit it.

That's the impression I got from reading fanfic: all Rhaegar/Lyanna fans want that to be true. Which is why I DON'T

If Jon sits on the throne I'm going to burn the books

[FrozenFire3]

Since we don't know Rhaegar's reasons exactly yet, ascribing him selfishness (or Lyanna sillyness, for similar reasons) is a bit premature, I feel.

Exactly. And anyway, are there any textual clues, foreshadowings, metaphors, allegories, little snipets or pun lines pointing to such a bizarre theory?

p.s. Guys, the story belongs to GRRM: if you think you can't stand the idea of letting his talent and creativity spin his own story, better stop reading. I for myself will accept any development. Cause - I'm sure - it will be masterfully handled.

[Ygrain]

That's the impression I got from reading fanfic: all Rhaegar/Lyanna fans want that to be true. Which is why I DON'T

If Jon sits on the throne I'm going to burn the books

All Rhaegar/Lyanna fans except me and quite a couple of others. You have to pick your fanfic more carefully :P

And are you going to burn the books if he sits the throne and hates every minute of it because he had to give up everything he held dear for the sake of duty?

[WildBlood]

Exactly. And anyway, are there any textual clues, foreshadowings, metaphors, allegories, little snipets or pun lines pointing to such a bizarre theory?

p.s. Guys, the story belongs to GRRM: if you think you can't stand the idea of letting his talent and creativity spin his own story, better stop reading. I for myself will accept any development. Cause - I'm sure - it will be masterfully handled.

Exactly... I love theorizing as much as the next guy, but I have not a single complaint on what George has done up until now... I can't wait to see what he does next ;)

[Alia of the knife]

I absolutely agree with you. There are endless ways to end the saga on a non-cliché more-sweet-than-bitter note for Jon. Not to mention how very :rolleyes: inducing would be to have Jon 'murdered', then 'resurrected' to eventually kill him for good at the end of the saga. It's just that knowing GRRM... well, let's say I try to prepare for disappointment. Just in case ;)

Aw, very much appreciated indeed :love: Wolves, blue roses and giant moons... Perfect soundtrack for my perigee full moon night in Capri.

Glad you enjoyed it.

I'm not sure if there is any connection between Martin and this group, but their themes and concepts are eerily similar. They have another CD called of course, "Blood of the Dragon." :)

[Alia of the knife]

That's the impression I got from reading fanfic: all Rhaegar/Lyanna fans want that to be true. Which is why I DON'T

If Jon sits on the throne I'm going to burn the books

You know, Jon sitting on that atrocious chair could BE his greatest tragedy, (I think Drogo had the right of it), and coupled with his new-found heritage, and a good dose of Neds duty-laden upbringing, sitting on that chair may be an inevitability.

[Pikachu101]

Are are you going to burn the books if he sits the throne and hates every minute of it because he had to give up everything he held dear for the sake of duty?

Why would Jon be given the throne? From what I've seen most fans think he'll fight for his claim

Back to topic:

R+L=J only means something to the readers, and only we find out the truth. Which is Rhaegar was going to sacrifice Jon

None of the characters find out because Jon refuses to believe Howland

Likewise Aegon's a fake but only the readers find out as well. Everyone else (including Aegon) thinks he's Rhaegar and Elia's son

[Ygrain]

Why would Jon be given the throne? From what I've seen most fans think he'll fight for his claim

Why ask me? Do I look like GRRM? I merely pointed out that sitting the IT may not be the sunshine and roses that fanficcers seem to present.

[WildBlood]

Why would Jon be given the throne? From what I've seen most fans think he'll fight for his claim

Back to topic:

R+L=J only means something to the readers, and only we find out the truth. Which is Rhaegar was going to sacrifice Jon

None of the characters find out because Jon refuses to believe Howland

Likewise Aegon's a fake but only the readers find out as well. Everyone else (including Aegon) thinks he's Rhaegar and Elia's son

These are clearly just your opinions. If this forum didn't exist and r+l=j ended up being true, everyone would have a greatly different view on it I am sure. But since it seems the obvious path of events to come everyone calls it fanfic... The fact is that we don't know what Jon is going to think or do if or when the time comes that his supposed parentage is revealed to him. He may have a completely different set of views given his latest escapades. If you don't want to accept this as one of the possible chain of events to come you may want to skip the next book.

[Pikachu101]

These are clearly just your opinions. If this forum didn't exist and r+l=j ended up being true, everyone would have a greatly different view on it I am sure. But since it seems the obvious path of events to come everyone calls it fanfic... The fact is that we don't know what Jon is going to think or do if or when the time comes that his supposed parentage is revealed to him. He may have a completely different set of views given his latest escapades. If you don't want to accept this as one of the possible chain of events to come you may want to skip the next book.

But isn't that what the forum is all about: giving your theories and ideas

My theory is that Rhaegar was going to use Jon as a sacrifice. You can't prove it's wrong and you can't prove it's right :)

[Ygrain]

But isn't that what the forum is all about: giving your theories and ideas

My theory is that Rhaegar was going to use Jon as a sacrifice. You can't prove it's wrong and you can't prove it's right :)

I can't exactly prove the existence or the lack thereof of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, but this doesn't make such claims any more legitimate.

[Alia of the knife]

But isn't that what the forum is all about: giving your theories and ideas

My theory is that Rhaegar was going to use Jon as a sacrifice. You can't prove it's wrong and you can't prove it's right :)

Prophesy says he needed three heads of the dragon, and Elia was rendered barren.

Practicality and politics says he needs a "spare to the Heir."

In both situations, it makes no sense for him to sacrifice Jon, and I'd think we'd have more clarity and hints of Lyanna trying to run away to save her pup.

[J. Stargaryen]

But isn't that what the forum is all about: giving your theories and ideas

My theory is that Rhaegar was going to use Jon as a sacrifice. You can't prove it's wrong and you can't prove it's right :)

This statement is misleading in that suggests some sort of balance where none exists. If you have a theory, the onus is on you to make a case in favor of it. It's nobody's job to disprove your idea.

[Pikachu101]

This statement is misleading in that suggests some sort of balance where none exists. If you have a theory, the onus is on you to make a case in favor of it. It's nobody's job to disprove your idea.

Why can't I just have an epic twist to R+L=J :(

Why does it have to be a boring romance :(