R+L=J v.53

[Ygrain]

The HotU was massively changed. We got visions, but none of those in the books. The closest thing is a black-haired Rhaego...

D'oh :-( This bodes ill for us all...

[WhiteOwl18]

In episode 4 or 5 or so - Cersei asks Robert what she was like.

Also, that scene when Cersei is talking to Ned and tells him that Robert said Lyanna's name on their wedding night.

[FrozenFire3]

The HotU was massively changed. We got visions, but none of those in the books. The closest thing is a black-haired Rhaego...

Yeah, and maybe the presence of the 'wall of ice'. The only blue flower present is this one though: http://gameofthronesrp.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/543279_305164902904050_240720222_n.jpg

D'oh :-( This bodes ill for us all...

It was a major disappointment. But there is 'snow' on the throne... It's just that the whole room is in ruin :uhoh: Foreshadowings?

[Jon Icefyre]

Lol my point exactly! We, as readers, are all wondering and speculating "Does R+L = J???". If it does come to pass.... the ShowFans only mystery would be J = Who the hell are these 2 people? Oh, yeah them. That's cool.

:agree: Seriously, don't get me wrong D&D are doing a fantastic job with the show, but what the hell are they doing on the R+L=J front? I get that they think giving away too many clues from the books would be too obvious for the show but they need to at least start showing some clues to start getting the viewers attention, otherwise when it finally is time to reveal R+L=J on the show, it's just going to come off as very rushed, sloppy, and unprepared overall. I mean D&D must realize that at some point they're going to have to address R+L=J whether they want to or not right?

[FrozenFire3]

:agree: Seriously, don't get me wrong D&D are doing a fantastic job with the show, but what the hell are they doing on the R+L=J front? I get that they think giving away too many clues from the books would be too obvious for the show but they need to at least start showing some clues to start getting the viewers attention, otherwise when it finally is time to reveal R+L=J on the show, it's just going to come off as very rushed, sloppy, and unprepared overall. I mean D&D must realize that at some point they're going to have to address R+L=J whether they want to or not right?

I wouldn't be so optimistic:

But in the abstract, it usually comes down to us (D&D) feeling like we have to limit the number of new faces we see on the screen and him (GRRM) talking about the “Butterfly Effect” that runs through the whole story. We understand that but for the good of the show we need to work around that and not give more information than people can handle.

http://www.deadline.com/2013/06/emmy-q-a-with-game-of-thrones-david-benioff-and-d-b-weiss/

[Ghost's Shadow]

Do people still remember Jon's a bastard? :unsure:

[MtnLion]

The HotU visions from the screenplay are fairly good foreshadows if you read them as:

Daenerys gets to the throne room, and actually reaches for the Iron Throne, but snow is on the throne and she never disturbs it. It is a wreck, though, meaning perhaps that Westeros has suffered terribly. Then Daenerys goes north of the Wall to meet her true love, and hold their black haired baby. In her mind it would be Drogo and Rhaego, but in reality . . .

If they had showed the wolf-headed man, the audience would know that it was Robb, and something bad was coming. I am pretty sure that they are hesitating over casting Rhaegar, they got pretty well undercut with the Mountain, and some others that have left the show.

[Nami]

The HotU visions from the screenplay are fairly good foreshadows if you read them as:

Daenerys gets to the throne room, and actually reaches for the Iron Throne, but snow is on the throne and she never disturbs it. It is a wreck, though, meaning perhaps that Westeros has suffered terribly. Then Daenerys goes north of the Wall to meet her true love, and hold their black haired baby. In her mind it would be Drogo and Rhaego, but in reality . . .

If they had showed the wolf-headed man, the audience would know that it was Robb, and something bad was coming. I am pretty sure that they are hesitating over casting Rhaegar, they got pretty well undercut with the Mountain, and some others that have left the show.

You ship Dany and Jon? :stunned:

[Dio Forel]

:agree: Seriously, don't get me wrong D&D are doing a fantastic job with the show, but what the hell are they doing on the R+L=J front? I get that they think giving away too many clues from the books would be too obvious for the show but they need to at least start showing some clues to start getting the viewers attention, otherwise when it finally is time to reveal R+L=J on the show, it's just going to come off as very rushed, sloppy, and unprepared overall. I mean D&D must realize that at some point they're going to have to address R+L=J whether they want to or not right?

Exactly. I love the show personally, there's just so much mystery that the books are being stripped of. This show could have so much more intrigue added to it with some clues/mysteries added. Rhaegar and Lyanna can't just be random commentary in conversations meant as a means of backstory exposition. There is so much more relevance to that whole scenario that warrants more than 3 sentences in a whole series. Jon's parentage is a big piece of the story, yet in the show it doesn't even matter to anybody.

I wouldn't be so optimistic:

http://www.deadline....-and-d-b-weiss/

Unfortunately I am not optimistic at all with this. They give is very little credit. We could handle the few flashback scenes... especially considering how relevant they are to the foundation of ASOIAF. I can understand not including a flashback to some trivial memory that is just there for superficial/sentimental purposes.... but a flashback that holds the weight of some of the biggest mysteries/intrigue/history of the series is worth risking viewers' inability to handle the extra time. I don't see anybody minding the extra faces when there's so much action and drama involved in them.

[Alia of the knife]

I wouldn't be so optimistic:

http://www.deadline....-and-d-b-weiss/

I've had my suspicions from the first moment they started doing interviews and kept referring to "the RW," as if the story revolved around that "shock and awe" moment alone. <_<

I suppose we'll see what happens in the future, by my little birds told me that HBO has a new "game" in town, and it's Robert Graves "I Claudius" supposedly bringing back the people who did "Rome," but that's another thread.

[Jon Icefyre]

Exactly. I love the show personally, there's just so much mystery that the books are being stripped of. This show could have so much more intrigue added to it with some clues/mysteries added. Rhaegar and Lyanna can't just be random commentary in conversations meant as a means of backstory exposition. There is so much more relevance to that whole scenario that warrants more than 3 sentences in a whole series. Jon's parentage is a big piece of the story, yet in the show it doesn't even matter to anybody.

Unfortunately I am not optimistic at all with this. They give is very little credit. We could handle the few flashback scenes... especially considering how relevant they are to the foundation of ASOIAF. I can understand not including a flashback to some trivial memory that is just there for superficial/sentimental purposes.... but a flashback that holds the weight of some of the biggest mysteries/intrigue/history of the series is worth risking viewers' inability to handle the extra time. I don't see anybody minding the extra faces when there's so much action and drama involved in them.

Ya I mean they could have at least showed the Aerys/Brandon flashback scene they originally filmed for season 1 and then decided not to show....I don't really see how that specific flashback scene would have given away too much, if anything it would have given the viewers a much better understanding of Robert's Rebellion....

[Nami]

The HotU was massively changed. We got visions, but none of those in the books. The closest thing is a black-haired Rhaego...

That scene pissed me off so much, it was the biggest let down of the show to me

I was dying to see Rhaegar

[UVA]

Unfortunately I am not optimistic at all with this.

Add me three. Considering the amount of thought that D&D have apparently given to the question of "who's Jon Snow's mother?", and the fact that the answer they gave sufficiently satisfied GRRM as an indication of how well they had read the books, we'd get a little more on the subject than the brief exchange in the "The Kingsroad" S1 Ep when Jon is leaving for the Wall and asks Ned if his mother know where he's going. Correct me if I'm wrong but that is one of two instances where the question of the identity of Jon's mother is brought up on the show. In my laymen, lawyer, mommy life, I understand the need to cut out certain aspects of the story. But R&L aren't minor characters, and like it or not their story is the scaffolding of the whole thing. I just can't see how this will be glossed over but one never knows... Needless to say, with each season I've become more and more disenchanted.

Nami, I know I watched the HotU scene for the first time with baited breath. And while it wasn't a complete fail -- it was wistful and beautifully done its own right -- I so much wanted to get a nod to the pre-GOT events.

[Daphnaerys Seaworth]

:agree: This allergy to flashbacks/visions of the past is baffling. I don't even buy the assumption that scenes from the past would be too revealing in relation to the written word vs. visual imagery juxtaposition. Visual storytelling can be oneiric and cryptic enough to stir curiosity without giving away clues. It's just a matter of what and how showing specific facts and events.

My major concern is with the (lack of) build up for future revelations and plot twists. General audience need an emotional 'bond' with a character too care. How will they drop a bomb such as Jon's parentage without people reactig like 'R+L who?' :dunno: Anyway, I addressed this very concern to Bryan Cogman, in a Q&A that will be held soon online. My question doesn't get into details, so I hope it will be selected... Keeping my fingers crossed LOL

That is what I was thinking about myself.The show must have had at least SOME kind of tips and bits here and there foreshadowing Jon's parentage because this is supposed to be one of the biggest if not the biggest twist in the whole story.Let's face it , a lot of people who watch the show cannot handle all the info ,they cannot remember every single name and character and I believe half of the ONLY SHOW fans have forgotten the names Rhaegar and Lyanna.

I am hoping there will be a build up.if let's say the revelation is in e.g. A Dream Of Spring I believe the show will start building up Jon's arc and building up the mystery surrounding him from the next seasons since he will be much more important due to his role as Lord Commander etc. (Although I believe the show WILL overlap the books.I am afraid it will be a long time till tWoW is released.My minimum guess is 3 years)

[Daphnaerys Seaworth]

I know a few show only fans, and they have absolutely no idea what was going on with Bran, for instance, in the first season. They really glazed over the significance of the 3EC and the dreams.

And to get back on topic, the same show only fans I know, have ZERO idea of r+l=j. So I will be interested to see how they play it in to the show.

I agree.

From my experience,people I know who started watching the show when it came out (without having read the books) stopped watching the show because the found it had too many info for them to process, too many characters, too much of this of that etc and yes they ignored a lot of significant moments from it, not only that...they were discouraged to read the books after that and they turned out hating GoT and scorning it with the "GoT-is-just-another-trend-fuck-it-I'm-not-watching-it" attitude.

I personally love the show( not as much as the books of course , but I 'm still content with it).

What I am trying to say is that , the majority of TV viewers don't want to have to process too much, they just want to sit back and be spoon-fed easily.Some people are too lazy and that's why I believe the show has been slightly less complicated.

Edit:

...Which leaves me with the conclusion:

Even if there were some hints here and there pointing to Jon's parentage ,would most of those ONLY SHOW viewers who watch it just to pass the time even notice?Would they remember them?Would they care?Would they think to put the pieces together?

I'm not so sure.:/

[Ghost's Shadow]

Well, supposedly next season they'll bring in the Martells. Cannot really have them let Oberyn scream "FOR ELIA!" when they don't even know who she, and Rhaegar are. And that doesn't even include Rhaenys and Aegon. Nor does that connect Lyanna to him. I guess her parts are over.

There's a few things that the show has already failed to do for book people, as so much of the depth is gone. Have they mentioned at all that Targaryens have dragon dreams? Where would they. They didn't even give Jon the crypt dreams, I think? How are they going to bring that up? Random visit, if he ever physically goes there, probably. Otherwise they'll just have him dream it once when all is revealed? But good on them that they spend so much time on KL. (Is anyone doing the math on the screen time certain characters get? How is it compared to what they get in to books, so which characters are neglected the most? I've seen people do this in other fandoms, perhaps someone's doing it for this one as well.)

Having said that, I think that people who expect to be able to watch the 10 episodes the show has per season just once and then still be able to follow by season 8 or so are perhaps watching it the wrong way. This show is based on books, and that's always going to show. GoT never promised to be a 'let your brain rest and just enjoy the simple things that are going to be thrown your way' show. It's not Days of Our Lives. GoT is a good enough show to show more investment in than that. :)

[Ghost's Shadow]

Shoot, since we're talking about the show in relation to the thread topic, was I the only one who was somewhat irritated by that Jon/Sam scene where they are cleaning the table and have to talk about Ros and her tits? Did they think her pair was so splendid they just had to write a scene to announce them?

Wouldn't it have been so much better if they e.g. had a scene where Jon discussed his dreams with Sam, like he did somewhere in the books? Anything was a better bonding moment than that scene. Could it be that 3 scenes were dedicated to Jon's virginity? One with Sam, and even two with Ygritte? Geesh, overkill. At least use good scenes from the books if you have the room for them.

[FittleLinger]

Shoot, since we're talking about the show in relation to the thread topic, was I the only one who was somewhat irritated by that Jon/Sam scene where they are cleaning the table and have to talk about Ros and her tits? Did they think her pair was so splendid they just had to write a scene to announce them?

Wouldn't it have been so much better if they e.g. had a scene where Jon discussed his dreams with Sam, like he did somewhere in the books? Anything was a better bonding moment than that scene. Could it be that 3 scenes were dedicated to Jon's virginity? One with Sam, and even two with Ygritte? Geesh, overkill. At least use good scenes from the books if you have the room for them.

I guess Jon's sexuality and virginity were indeed very overkilled in the show. The way I got this: I have two friends who really love the show, but have never read the books. They know I have and they know I am very spoiler-protective and really give nothing away (sometimes with them I feel like Martin being asked on conventions). Once they really, really begged me to answer only one thing for them, only one, please! And I said, OK, shoot. And the question was, "Is Jon gonna bang Ygritte?". Needless to say, I was like, "Really? THAT's the one question you want answered. Jeez..."

[MtnLion]

You ship Dany and Jon? :stunned:

If that is what GRRM has in mind, he will make it work. I suspect he has a hidden card or two. The Producers know the ending, so them dropping this as a clue works.

[Ghost's Shadow]

I don't really get why people see that as an evident clue for that. ( :lol: )

I mean, they showed a Targ parent with the Targ features having a dark haired, dark eyed baby with a dark haired and dark eyed man.

It is, imo, a hint for Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon.

And they had her walk under the Wall, not because she's going to die and then meet her husband again, but because said dark haired and dark eyed baby that is about her only surviving relative is at that Wall. (Or was he at that time beyond the Wall?)

The blue rose on the Wall, for the people who like that. That's how you do with when you don't incorporate much of that rose in the show.