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Stubby

R+L=J v.53

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Eddard the Frugal, heheh

I tend to agree with Alia; we know they were very good at defending themselves (which done right does not require numerical advantage). Outside of Dorne, the playing field becomes much more level. And something in the quote "...the power to defy House Lannister" - he doesn't say defeat them. It just sounds to me like JC can count on Dorne's thirst for revenge.

Personally, I think Dorne is of the utmost importance to JC and fAegon not because of their military power, but rather the credibility they can offer him. Lets face it, if fAegon can't get his own grandfather over to his cause, what chance does he have of winning the loyalty of the Reach or anyone else?

Yes, Eddard the Frugal, lol.

(Remember when he lost it over the cost of the Tourney, but he still had the money to provide Arya a very expensive "dancing" Master from Braavos).

Agree with the analysis on Dorne.

And I'm not knocking them, but I think for the series, they act as a plot device for the "Outlier" House- the House that operates under the radar just as their counterparts in the North, the Manderlys are doing.

Guerilla warfare as a tactic is most always utilized when chances for victory in open battle are much more minimized. And truth to tell, there is a time and a place for it if you actually want to win, and for that, I'd say the Martells were more clever than the other Houses to do what they did, which was to wear the Targaryens down, and be ungovernable.

Really, Torren should have done the same thing given the terrain of the North.

And I took the need for the Martells to recognize Aegon to be more about credibility than actual power which the Dornish simply do not have outside their borders as they are more dependent on alliances for the their actual power.

That may be one of the things that irritate the other Houses about Dorne and the Martells- pride and arrogance, but nothing to really back it up but their marriages to the Targaryens. I mean, they could never give the Berantheons and the Lannister any reason to look at them suspiciously while Robert was King, and I think they meant to go through with the marriage of Trystyn and Myrcella despite ulterior motives.

Power was land and territory, and the North from a strategic standpoint, (and perhaps a resources standpoint as I think we'll find out later when everyone else is depleted), as well as the fact that Torren Starks Kingdom was the largest, (according to Robert, it's the size of all the Seven Kingdoms put together), will be the goal.

The Dragons and the Others:

I wonder about that.

If the Others, or the magic of Winterfell is bringing about Winter, I don't know how effective the dragons would actually be in full on Winter and blizzards, when Aegon the Conqueror's dragons were grounded in a rainstorm in the Riverlands.

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I think Neil Marshall's explanation is quite thorough:

Speaking to Empire, ‘Game of Thrones’ episode director Neil Marshall (“Blackwater“) spoke out about HBO’s tendency to push for further nudity, even during filming of already-scripted episodes. Marshall spoke about his recent directing duties, saying:

The weirdest part [of directing
Game of Thrones
] was when you have one of the exec producers leaning over your shoulder, going, ‘You can go full frontal, you know. This is television, you can do whatever you want! And do it! I urge you to do it!’ So I was like, ‘Okay, well, you’re the boss.’”

This particular exec took me to one side and said, ‘Look, I represent the pervert side of the audience, okay? Everybody else is the serious drama side, [but] I represent the perv side of the audience, and I’m saying I want full frontal nudity in this scene.’ So you go ahead and do it.

Really?

So THAT was the quote that had the posters in the "Reviewing the Rains of Castemere" so incensed.

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Power was land and territory, and the North from a strategic standpoint, (and perhaps a resources standpoint as I think we'll find out later when everyone else is depleted), as well as the fact that Torren Starks Kingdom was the largest, (according to Robert, it's the size of all the Seven Kingdoms put together), will be the goal.

I understand what your saying and that does make a lot of sense, but I can't completely agree with it. We have to remember Winter just hit the entire realm and if it snows during the summer in the North, what do you think happpens in the Winter?

"By right of conquest," Lord Tywin said. "King Balon has strangler's fingers round the Neck. Robb Stark's heirs are dead, Winterfell is fallen, and the ironmen hold Moat Cailin, Deepwood Motte, and most of the Stony Shore. King Balon's longships command the sunset sea, and are well placed to menace Lannisport, Fair Isle, and even Highgarden, should we provoke him."

"And if we accept this alliance?" inquired Lord Mathis Rowan. "What terms does he propose?"

"That we recognize his kingship and grant him everything north of the Neck."

Lord Redwyne laughed. "What is there north of the Neck that any sane man would want? If Greyjoy will trade swords and sails for stone and snow, I say do it, and count ourselves lucky."

"Truly," agreed Mace Tyrell. "That's what I would do. Let King Balon finish the northmen whilst we finish Stannis."

:

"Balon Greyjoy thinks in terms of plunder, not rule. Let him enjoy an autumn crown and suffer a northern winter. He will give his subjects no cause to love him. Come spring, the northmen will have had a bellyful of krakens. When you bring Eddard Stark's grandson home to claim his birthright, lords and little folk alike will rise as one to place him on the high seat of his ancestors.

I agree with all those things you said about the North, and I think all those things are indeed true in seasons other than winter, but no one south of the neck is going to want anything to do with the North during the Winter season, and it just so happens that winter is the current season they're in as of the end of ADWD. So for JC/Aegon and all the southern folk in general if it came down to it I think nice and warm Dorne where it never snows would look much more appealing than the frozen tundra that is becoming the North during the winter season. After winter then all bets are off and yes the north will be a very big prize then, but we don't know how long this winter season is gonna last, so until winter is over JC/Aegon will keep their desires fixed south, in fact in one of the JC pov chapters when the half-maester brought up Stannis, JC specifically said that Stannis was in the North and was therefore of no use to him. So I really don't think the JC/Aegon party cares for the North at all at this point, right now Dorne is their biggest concern. And again I gave a quote in one of my earlier posts that shows JC specifically says it's because Dorne is the only one that has the, 'power' to defy house Lannister and it's allies.... And again to touch on what I was saying in my earlier posts I think the potential of Dorne's military strength was momentarily shown and then overshadowed at the Battle of the Trident in which they weren't even close to full strength of numbers.... The only thing that will force anyone North in the winter is the upcoming war with the Others....

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Really?

So THAT was the quote that had the posters in the "Reviewing the Rains of Castemere" so incensed.

If you have an axe to grind with the show, that quote provides a good opportunity. You know, just feign disgust and all. Though, having just read the "fat pink mast" chapter, not to mention the "Myrish swamp" chapter earlier in the same book, I am puzzled by the level of prudishness some fans have portrayed.

I mean, were these same people outraged by ~30 year old Drogo taking 13 year old Dany repeatedly? Is that really less offensive than full frontal on some lady wearing a merkin? Or was there a merkin in that scene? I don't recall, but the point still stands. And, let's be honest, female full frontal nudity isn't really that graphic.

That's not to say that the show doesn't go out of its way to insert T&A, because it does. But I fail to see how this is different from the books.

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I understand what your saying and that does make a lot of sense, but I can't completely agree with it. We have to remember Winter just hit the entire realm and if it snows during the summer in the North, what do you think happpens in the Winter?

"By right of conquest," Lord Tywin said. "King Balon has strangler's fingers round the Neck. Robb Stark's heirs are dead, Winterfell is fallen, and the ironmen hold Moat Cailin, Deepwood Motte, and most of the Stony Shore. King Balon's longships command the sunset sea, and are well placed to menace Lannisport, Fair Isle, and even Highgarden, should we provoke him."

"And if we accept this alliance?" inquired Lord Mathis Rowan. "What terms does he propose?"

"That we recognize his kingship and grant him everything north of the Neck."

Lord Redwyne laughed. "What is there north of the Neck that any sane man would want? If Greyjoy will trade swords and sails for stone and snow, I say do it, and count ourselves lucky."

"Truly," agreed Mace Tyrell. "That's what I would do. Let King Balon finish the northmen whilst we finish Stannis."

:

"Balon Greyjoy thinks in terms of plunder, not rule. Let him enjoy an autumn crown and suffer a northern winter. He will give his subjects no cause to love him. Come spring, the northmen will have had a bellyful of krakens. When you bring Eddard Stark's grandson home to claim his birthright, lords and little folk alike will rise as one to place him on the high seat of his ancestors.

I agree with all those things you said about the North, and I think all those things are indeed true in seasons other than winter, but no one south of the neck is going to want anything to do with the North during the Winter season, and it just so happens that winter is the current season they're in as of the end of ADWD. So for JC/Aegon and all the southern folk in general if it came down to it I think nice and warm Dorne where it never snows would look much more appealing than the frozen tundra that is becoming the North during the winter season. After winter then all bets are off and yes the north will be a very big prize then, but we don't know how long this winter season is gonna last, so until winter is over JC/Aegon will keep their desires fixed south, in fact in one of the JC pov chapters when the half-maester brought up Stannis, JC specifically said that Stannis was in the North and was therefore of no use to him. So I really don't think the JC/Aegon party cares for the North at all at this point, right now Dorne is their biggest concern. And again I gave a quote in one of my earlier posts that shows JC specifically says it's because Dorne is the only one that has the, 'power' to defy house Lannister and it's allies.... And again to touch on what I was saying in my earlier posts I think the potential of Dorne's military strength was momentarily shown and then overshadowed at the Battle of the Trident in which they weren't even close to full strength of numbers.... The only thing that will force anyone North in the winter is the upcoming war with the Others....

No, I agree what that JonCons plans are definitely geared towards Dorne in the near term, but in the long term, they will have to start, or try to peace the Kingdom back together, and a big part of that will be getting the North back.

Really, Aegon should not need to marry Arianne in order to get the backing of Dorne. All his Uncle needs to do is say, "it's Aegon," and that credibility is enough.

I don't think he wouldn't support Aegon if he really believes it's Elia's son just because he didn't marry Arianne.

That's why I say that Dorne is not really a factor because by family, he should already have that support. He needs to marry the House whose support he doesn't have.

I also don't think it's a matter of forcing anyone North, I think it will be the North moving South because I think it's revenge on the Lannisters that Jon will be after, but the North is much better acclimated to the harsh conditions of Winter whereas the South is not, and as Winter spreads, it will weaken the war-torn South even more, because they likely won't even have furs to wear.

When you live in harsh conditions, Winter is always Coming, Just ask my Grandmother who canned everything, (including beets), she could get her hands on, and this is the age of Whole Foods.

Don't get me wrong, I don't dislike the Dornish, but I really do think their purpose in the series is to be the House where the cautionary tale of power-plays, and the cycles of revenge keeps getting them nowhere, as Ellaria said.

In that regard, they're up there with the Tyrells, as well as the Lannisters.

As for their military prowess, I don't think they're chopped liver, but I just don't think they serve that function in the book.

Remember, it's poison Oberyn trained in, "a weapon of women," not warfare, so while I think winning is a priority for Dorne and the Martells, war isn't.

And also to the short term, Dany isn't even in a city now, but back in the grasslands. :bang: So, we have a long way to go.

If you have an axe to grind with the show, that quote provides a good opportunity. You know, just feign disgust and all. Though, having just read the "fat pink mast" chapter, not to mention the "Myrish swamp" chapter earlier in the same book, I am puzzled by the level of prudishness some fans have portrayed.

I mean, were these same people outraged by ~30 year old Drogo taking 13 year old Dany repeatedly? Is that really less offensive than full frontal on some lady wearing a merkin? Or was there a merkin in that scene? I don't recall, but the point still stands. And, let's be honest, female full frontal nudity isn't really that graphic.

That's not to say that the show doesn't go out of its way to insert T&A, because it does. But I fail to see how this is different from the books.

In terms of the books, I think one of the issues was is that there is indeed already so much pertinent material to work with in the books that there is no need to add to it, but instead take that precious time to flesh out the characters, as well as the story.

(And I have to say, because of Danys age in the book, I skipped over the consummation part because I got the picture and didn't need the details, as did my Husband), and in my mind, she's twenty.

Also agree on frontal nudity for females because it's more of a sensitive matter with men, and male frontal nudity is what I believe they were referencing in the quote.

So, not being a man, I asked Hubby what the big deal was with male actors and frontal nudity. My Husband explained that a woman can be small-breasted and get away with it, still being perceived as beautiful and attractive, but not so much a man being, ahem, "small." :blushing:

So, I think for the male actor, it really goes to the heart of confidence and intimacy of their person, though you do see more of it.

But, I think more than anything, the posters didn't appreciate being considered "pervs," and not actually tuning in for a good story, but for T & A, sex, etc,, and that was many of the men.

We all get that sex is a large factor in the Human experience, and certainly less offensive (done that is by mutual, consenting adults), than seeing someone get an axe through his head, however, it's not the only factor in intimacy and expression, but one of many parts.

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No, I agree what that JonCons plans are definitely geared towards Dorne in the near term, but in the long term, they will have to start, or try to peace the Kingdom back together, and a big part of that will be getting the North back.

Really, Aegon should not need to marry Arianne in order to get the backing of Dorne. All his Uncle needs to do is say, "it's Aegon," and that credibility is enough.

I don't think he wouldn't support Aegon if he really believes it's Elia's son just because he didn't marry Arianne.

That's why I say that Dorne is not really a factor because by family, he should already have that support. He needs to marry the House whose support he doesn't have.

I also don't think it's a matter of forcing anyone North, I think it will be the North moving South because I think it's revenge on the Lannisters that Jon will be after, but the North is much better acclimated to the harsh conditions of Winter whereas the South is not, and as Winter spreads, it will weaken the war-torn South even more, because they likely won't even have furs to wear.

When you live in harsh conditions, Winter is always Coming, Just ask my Grandmother who canned everything, (including beets), she could get her hands on, and this is the age of Whole Foods.

Don't get me wrong, I don't dislike the Dornish, but I really do think their purpose in the series is to be the House where the cautionary tale of power-plays, and the cycles of revenge keeps getting them nowhere, as Ellaria said.

In that regard, they're up there with the Tyrells, as well as the Lannisters.

As for their military prowess, I don't think they're chopped liver, but I just don't think they serve that function in the book.

Remember, it's poison Oberyn trained in, "a weapon of women," not warfare, so while I think winning is a priority for Dorne and the Martells, war isn't.

And also to the short term, Dany isn't even in a city now, but back in the grasslands. :bang: So, we have a long way to go.

I was never a fan of the Aegon marrying Arianne theory, myself. I think it's a bad move for both Aegon and Arianne. There's no real benefit in them being wed, although I could see Arianne going for Aegon since, IIRC, he's got pretty good looks. But militarily and politically, the Martells are natural allies with the Targaryens... although, I suppose being first cousins, that would be right up Aegon's alley.

Truthfully, I was always more receptive to tze's theory that Arianne and Jon might be a potential match for each other.

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No, I agree what that JonCons plans are definitely geared towards Dorne in the near term, but in the long term, they will have to start, or try to peace the Kingdom back together, and a big part of that will be getting the North back.

Really, Aegon should not need to marry Arianne in order to get the backing of Dorne. All his Uncle needs to do is say, "it's Aegon," and that credibility is enough.

I don't think he wouldn't support Aegon if he really believes it's Elia's son just because he didn't marry Arianne.

That's why I say that Dorne is not really a factor because by family, he should already have that support. He needs to marry the House whose support he doesn't have.

I also don't think it's a matter of forcing anyone North, I think it will be the North moving South because I think it's revenge on the Lannisters that Jon will be after, but the North is much better acclimated to the harsh conditions of Winter whereas the South is not, and as Winter spreads, it will weaken the war-torn South even more, because they likely won't even have furs to wear.

When you live in harsh conditions, Winter is always Coming, Just ask my Grandmother who canned everything, (including beets), she could get her hands on, and this is the age of Whole Foods.

Don't get me wrong, I don't dislike the Dornish, but I really do think their purpose in the series is to be the House where the cautionary tale of power-plays, and the cycles of revenge keeps getting them nowhere, as Ellaria said.

In that regard, they're up there with the Tyrells, as well as the Lannisters.

As for their military prowess, I don't think they're chopped liver, but I just don't think they serve that function in the book.

Remember, it's poison Oberyn trained in, "a weapon of women," not warfare, so while I think winning is a priority for Dorne and the Martells, war isn't.

And also to the short term, Dany isn't even in a city now, but back in the grasslands. :bang: So, we have a long way to go.

Fair enough you're probably right lol. :thumbsup: The only reason I think Arianne marrying YG is most likely going to happen is because A. like you said Arianne could most definitely go against Doran's wishes and push for marriage so she can be queen. Or B. even if the Martells don't believe Faegon is legit, Doran still might go along with the lie, for the sake of achieving their revenge and I suspect there will be some sort of miscommunication about the circumstances of Quentyn's death that will turn Dorne away from Dany leaving Faegon as their only option. Therefore Doran would seek to marry Arianne to Faegon, and pretend he's legit that, way when he takes the throne the Martells would ensure that any future children Arianne and Faegon would have will be royalty of Martell blood. Varys 'power' speech always creeps back into my mind, I just have a hunch that Doran will know that Aegon is fake, but will use that to House Martells advantage....

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