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R+L=J v.53

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Why can't I just have an epic twist to R+L=J :(

Why does it have to be a boring romance :(

Who said there was no twist? There might well be.The possibilities are endless. It's just that first of all, for many superficial readers, R+L=J is a twist in and of itself, and that your particular twist is rather unlikely. Still, there have been many further twists suggested before, some more likely, some less so.

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In both situations, it makes no sense for him to sacrifice Jon, and I'd think we'd have more clarity and hints of Lyanna trying to run away to save her pup.

Exactly. Using Jon as a sacrifice doesn't fit into the story's schematic.at.all.

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My pet theory is that Rhaegar was going to use Jon as a sacrifice to the Others :D so that the realm would be saved

How would this work, though? In practical terms? The Other do not seem to speak any language Rhaegar knows. So explaining that Jon is so infinitely special that his death alone should be enough to justify the Others calling off their invasion would not be something Rhaegar could do.

Or let's assume he could speak their language.

Others: We intend to invade your realm and kill people on a mass scale.

Rhaegar: Right, but I have Jon Snow.

Others: And he would be?

Rhaegar: My son by Lyanna Stark. I propose that I sacrifice him and you call off your invasion.

Others: Not sure that's a fair deal. You're talking about giving up potentially tens of thousands of killings... for just one?

Rhaegar: But he's my son. By Lyanna Stark. He unifies ice and fire. And you're all about ice.

Others: Not sure we're following you.

Rhaegar: Trust me, he's a big effing deal. You need to take his corpse and go and be glad of the deal you're getting.

Others: You're not used to haggling, are you?

Rhaegar: Well, I'm a prince. So... no.

Others: Look into it.

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Who said there was no twist? There might well be.The possibilities are endless. It's just that first of all, for many superficial readers, R+L=J is a twist in and of itself, and that your particular twist is rather unlikely. Still, there have been many further twists suggested before, some more likely, some less so.

Just to add to this, most 'twists' are presented with some shread of evidence or foreshadowing... Even the worst of theories have what the author thinks is evidence.

And to address Pikachu's theory, why would Rhaegar go through all the trouble to 'kidnap' Lyanna just to make a child to sacrifice? It seems to me if he was trying to fulfill a prophecy He would have had larger plans than a sacrificial lamb...

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Why can't I just have an epic twist to R+L=J :(

Why does it have to be a boring romance :(

You know, I have to say whenever I see a statement like this, and your not the only one to have made this type of a statement, nor am I trying to single you out for the extremes on this particular point of view, I frankly get a little nervous about the path of the Human experience regarding one another, (especially when it's already been a struggle).

But I think most reasonable people agree that "love and romance" is a primary driving force of the Human experience, and has been the common denominator of most literary work across all spectrums, so I ask the question, absent the literary scourge of "love and romance," what then is the alternative subject?

Complete and utter misery porn?

That's a pretty limited topic/concept too.

There has to be some balance to reflect the historical experiences, but also the human duality of love and hate, which there is a very thin line.

I think most of us know from life itself that while life is not a "song," it's also not a tragedy, but at times a combination of both that reinforces the intensity of recognizing and appreciating the "songs" of life.

Martin is a writer that draws heavily upon history, and particularly upon the Medieval era for this story. That he plays with cultures and their traditions may be his claim to literary freedom in the genre of fantasy, but if he sticks to his history on this time, then he reflects both the brutality as well as the intensity of love and loss of this time period.

I've often said that our modern era is a "throw-away" era from people to "things," so I think the attraction for the modern person to this time period is the recognition that they as a people understood their time was short, brutal, and clung to what was precious to them and focused on, (gasp), hope.

Such nihilism works with a concept like "The Walking Dead," where it's straightforward death, disease and destruction, and the Human experience is to just survive until they are inevitably infected, and even their afterlife is utter misery and abomination.

But, that doesn't work in a concept like aSoIaF where it is supposed to be a reflection, and dare I say allegory of "real life" and human desires such as LOVE AND ROMANCE.

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Why people can deal with Ned and Cat love but don't want R+L to have a deep love story?

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Even if R+L=J is true that doesn't mean people are going to believe Howland and that certainly doesn't mean Jon's entitled to the throne.

I think most careful readers realize that one person's word isn't enough to place another to the throne. I mean, this is obvious. Stannis told the entire realm the truth about Cersei's children and it didn't help him any.

My pet theory is that Rhaegar was going to use Jon as a sacrifice to the Others :D so that the realm would be saved

That's a bizarre theory, especially as Rhaegar romanticized the prophecies. Rhaegar also got the prophecies wrong, at least twice that we know - He wasn't the prince that was promised, because he's dead, and Aegon wasn't the prince that was promised, because he's dead.

Considering Jon's last chapter in Dance, I wouldn't be surprised if the prophecy did include some vague language about sacrifice or something similar. I just really doubt that Rhaegar would have been able to figure that one out.

So Lyanna took some kind of brew that prolonged the pregnancy (I saw this in a Korean drama) but the side effects caused internal bleeding and so she died :(

This isn't a Korean drama. These books have their own rules that do not necessarily correspond to the rules of a Korean drama. The closest thing to an odd pregnancy is Melisandre's shadowbabies. The pregnancy wasn't prolonged, it was actually really fast. It was also magical, and produced a shadow. Lyann's pregnancy wasn't anything like this.

I want an epic twist to the story, not some crappy romance about a selfish douche and a silly teenager

What is a crappy romance to you? Do you mean you don't want a cliche romance? This presumed romance was pretty crappy. Lyanna was too young to truly give consent. No one lived happily ever after. Rhaegar and Lyanna are dead. Their actions helped contribute to a series of events that led to civil war. Ned's lies took a heavy toll on himself and his marriage. Jon was raised as a bastard, not as heir to the Iron Throne. Then he joined the Night's Watch. He later got stabbed.

The fallout from Lyanna and Rhaegar is quite twisty, and these little twists eventually add up to a pretty epic story. If all you see is "girl falls in love with boy", you haven't been paying attention.

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I agree except that technically Lyanna was plenty old for consent. In our world, no. In Westeros, absolutely. The only thing counting against her, was as a Lady of a noble house, you marry who your Lord Father tells you to. Not run off with your puppy love.

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Hi guys , I am totally new here.I have been reading through many threads and posts but this is the first time I am writing and contributing.

First of all, I have to say I have been on the R+L=J team from the moment it found out about it.There is gread deal of evidence for it and not much evidence (if there is) against it.All roads lead and intersect on that specific idea.I would be really pleased if it came true.I am not saying this because I am a great fan of Jon Snow, cause I never was.I am just saying this because it makes perfect sense.

Anyway, enough with the prologue.

All I wanted to propose is...What if? You 'll tell me "What if what?".

All I mean is, that this theory is so widely spread, most fans adhere to it and take it as a fact and all and George has been aware of it, he knows it and he knows that most of us want it to be true afterall. I can't clearly see his motives and what he intended by putting all those clues throughout the book pointing to Rhaegar and Lyanna being Jon's parents BUT...

What if in the end, he decides NOT to serve us the boar all stuffed up and ready on the platter after all? What if he decides to pull some Westerosi pidgeon-pie ninja trick and turns everything upiside down?

I have two possibilities that he may follow.

A) He will present a whole new different ,exciting,shocking revelation about Jon's parentage that we might not even expect or we might have not thought about it yet.

B)He will evolve the story and write the remaining books in such a way where Jon's parentage is of no concern thus never mentioned or clarified at all.

What do you think if it??:-)

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Hi guys , I am totally new here.I have been reading through many threads and posts but this is the first time I am writing and contributing.

First of all, I have to say I have been on the R+L=J team from the moment it found out about it.There is gread deal of evidence for it and not much evidence (if there is) against it.All roads lead and intersect on that specific idea.I would be really pleased if it came true.I am not saying this because I am a great fan of Jon Snow, cause I never was.I am just saying this because it makes perfect sense.

Anyway, enough with the prologue.

All I wanted to propose is...What if? You 'll tell me "What if what?".

All I mean is, that this theory is so widely spread, most fans adhere to it and take it as a fact and all and George has been aware of it, he knows it and he knows that most of us want it to be true afterall. I can't clearly see his motives and what he intended by putting all those clues throughout the book pointing to Rhaegar and Lyanna being Jon's parents BUT...

What if in the end, he decides NOT to serve us the boar all stuffed up and ready on the platter after all? What if he decides to pull some Westerosi pidgeon-pie ninja trick and turns everything upiside down?

I have two possibilities that he may follow.

A) He will present a whole new different ,exciting,shocking revelation about Jon's parentage that we might not even expect or we might have not thought about it yet.

B)He will evolve the story and write the remaining books in such a way where Jon's parentage is of no concern thus never mentioned or clarified at all.

What do you think if it??:-)

Welcome to the forum! :cheers:

GRRM has stated that he will not change the story just because people might have guessed it. In my opinion, I think GRRM wanted some people to be able to guess R+L=J just from reading AGoT.

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Hi guys , I am totally new here.I have been reading through many threads and posts but this is the first time I am writing and contributing.

First of all, I have to say I have been on the R+L=J team from the moment it found out about it.There is gread deal of evidence for it and not much evidence (if there is) against it.All roads lead and intersect on that specific idea.I would be really pleased if it came true.I am not saying this because I am a great fan of Jon Snow, cause I never was.I am just saying this because it makes perfect sense.

Anyway, enough with the prologue.

All I wanted to propose is...What if? You 'll tell me "What if what?".

All I mean is, that this theory is so widely spread, most fans adhere to it and take it as a fact and all and George has been aware of it, he knows it and he knows that most of us want it to be true afterall. I can't clearly see his motives and what he intended by putting all those clues throughout the book pointing to Rhaegar and Lyanna being Jon's parents BUT...

What if in the end, he decides NOT to serve us the boar all stuffed up and ready on the platter after all? What if he decides to pull some Westerosi pidgeon-pie ninja trick and turns everything upiside down?

I have two possibilities that he may follow.

A) He will present a whole new different ,exciting,shocking revelation about Jon's parentage that we might not even expect or we might have not thought about it yet.

B)He will evolve the story and write the remaining books in such a way where Jon's parentage is of no concern thus never mentioned or clarified at all.

What do you think if it??:-)

I am along for the ride where ever the driver (grrm) decides to take us. ;)

Welcome to the forum :cheers:

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A) He will present a whole new different ,exciting,shocking revelation about Jon's parentage that we might not even expect or we might have not thought about it yet.

B)He will evolve the story and write the remaining books in such a way where Jon's parentage is of no concern thus never mentioned or clarified at all.

What do you think if it??:-)

Welcome:)

Concerning A): It would make little to no sense to me, if George RR Martin carefully drops hints throughout the book that all point in one direction, why would he disregard all these with no clue in advance? The theory itself is already a giant twist (I know of (casual) readers who never questioned Jon's parentage at all), so why would he artfully construct a hidden story if he was going to destroy it after all?

If it was something no one has thought about yet, I would be perfectly fine with it (as long as it works with the story and explains the evidence pointing towards R-L=J), but it just does not seem this way.

B ) : Again, the first part of A), why construct such a well-thought scenario, just to drop it? This just does not add up. I highly doubt that George RR Martin would drop such a complex, layered scenario just because many people have guessed it, and as I said, I don't think that many people know of it.

Eta: someone was faster^^

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I agree except that technically Lyanna was plenty old for consent. In our world, no. In Westeros, absolutely. The only thing counting against her, was as a Lady of a noble house, you marry who your Lord Father tells you to. Not run off with your puppy love.

While it's not always adhered to, the age of majority in Westeros is 16. I could be wrong, but I don't think Lyanna was yet 16 when she went missing.

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While it's not always adhered to, the age of majority in Westeros is 16. I could be wrong, but I don't think Lyanna was yet 16 when she went missing.

She died at 16 (267-283) so depending what time of the year she could very wel have been 16 at the time but not any younger than 15. But it seems to me that once a woman has flowered she becomes fair game. And if she became pregnant she was obviously flowered ;)

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I agree except that technically Lyanna was plenty old for consent. In our world, no. In Westeros, absolutely. The only thing counting against her, was as a Lady of a noble house, you marry who your Lord Father tells you to. Not run off with your puppy love.

...to which a wild she-wolf might as well say "screw you" :P

Ned labels her as wilful and Meera says that she was used to having her way... I'm almost feeling sorry for Rhaegar:

R: "Oh, my Lady, I love you more than any other, but alas! that is not to be... you are betrothed and I am married, gods will that we cannot be together..."

L: "But of course we can! You are a Targaryen, you can take more than one spouse!"

R: "I am not sure this is a good idea..."

L: "How so? Aegon did it, and does anyone criticise him for that?"

R: "But your Lord father will hardly consent -"

L: "So what? He'll be mad for a while and then he'll forgive me, he always does."

R: "And my father -"

L: "Oh, come on, what can he do?"

R: "...awfully lot, actually..."

L: "Not after we say the words - and now that I think of it, all we have to do is to make sure that our marriage is fulfilled beyond any doubt. Hm, best if we go off the radar for a while and come back only when I'm pregnant."

R: "But-"

L: "Oh, come on, stu- my prince, what could possibly go wrong?"

...

- Makes me think: with all those parallels in Dany's PoVs when it's Jorah who actually brings up the option of polygamy, what if it was really Lyanna herself who brought up the option? :D

snip

Hello and welcome :-)

As others have already said: R+L is apparently something that GRRM has been planning all along and has spent quite some time and effort to conceal it within the story. It really wouldn't make sense if he dropped all that glorious foreshadowing. If he changed his mind and decided to pull a different solution, he would have to make it perfectly consistent with all the clues. I'm not sure if this is even doable, but if so, it would be such a writing mastery that it wouldn't really matter. I don't think he would go for something that would be inconsistent with the story development, he is too good an author for that.

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She died at 16 (267-283) so depending what time of the year she could very wel have been 16 at the time but not any younger than 15. But it seems to me that once a woman has flowered she becomes fair game. And if she became pregnant she was obviously flowered ;)

Per Ned, she was not yet 16 when she died, IIRC.

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She died at 16 (267-283) so depending what time of the year she could very wel have been 16 at the time but not any younger than 15. But it seems to me that once a woman has flowered she becomes fair game. And if she became pregnant she was obviously flowered ;)

I'm not suggesting that she was not sexually mature. I think it's pretty obvious she was. I also haven't stated that there is a rule that is followed all the time in Westeros. Obviously, some characters just really don't care (see those who married off Sansa and Jeyne Poole, for example, or even Joffrey, who I believe was expected to consummate despite not being 16). In general, the age of constent/majority is 16. We read often of long betrothals. The wait between betrothal and marriage, in the book, is generally for one or both of the betrothed to reach a certain age. Specifically, Beric was waiting until Allyria got old enough to marry. Of course, this general practice often goes out the window in times of war (see Ermesande Hayford and Tyrek Lannister, married but obviously no consummation).

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I'm not suggesting that she was not sexually mature. I think it's pretty obvious she was. I also haven't stated that there is a rule that is followed all the time in Westeros. Obviously, some characters just really don't care (see those who married off Sansa and Jeyne Poole, for example, or even Joffrey, who I believe was expected to consummate despite not being 16). In general, the age of constent/majority is 16. We read often of long betrothals. The wait between betrothal and marriage, in the book, is generally for one or both of the betrothed to reach a certain age. Specifically, Beric was waiting until Allyria got old enough to marry. Of course, this general practice often goes out the window in times of war (see Ermesande Hayford and Tyrek Lannister, married but obviously no consummation).

I am not aruing the age of majority. I am just wondering if it isn't just more of a custom or a guide of sorts, and the men/women are just expected to act like adults if they wish to be perceived as such. Being that she had to at least be 15, IMO the only thing she was risking was what her father would think, and being the she-wolf I take it she didn't really care about that aspect.

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I think most careful readers realize that one person's word isn't enough to place another to the throne. I mean, this is obvious. Stannis told the entire realm the truth about Cersei's children and it didn't help him any.

Interesting point about Howland. I've always kind of kept that option in the back of my mind (I.E., Howland telling some authority what happened) in hopes of a general recognition of Jon when ( :cool4:) he comes into his proper position.

At this point, he exists to tell the details of the story, I suppose, that the readers haven't been exposed to yet. For example, the extent of Rhaegar's plans for Jon and the other kids. I don't think he's told either Jojen or Meera, because, well, they're kids. Remarkable kids, but kids nonetheless.

I could see this revelation from Howland coming around if Stannis takes Winterfell with Manderly and the Karstarks and Jon, freed from his vows, is made Warden of the North. Otherwise, he'll just be one of those frustratingly tantalizing details that Martin loves to insert into his story.

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