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Stubby

R+L=J v.53

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...to which a wild she-wolf might as well say "screw you" :P

Ned labels her as wilful and Meera says that she was used to having her way... I'm almost feeling sorry for Rhaegar:

R: "Oh, my Lady, I love you more than any other, but alas! that is not to be... you are betrothed and I am married, gods will that we cannot be together..."

L: "But of course we can! You are a Targaryen, you can take more than one spouse!"

R: "I am not sure this is a good idea..."

L: "How so? Aegon did it, and does anyone criticise him for that?"

R: "But your Lord father will hardly consent -"

L: "So what? He'll be mad for a while and then he'll forgive me, he always does."

R: "And my father -"

L: "Oh, come on, what can he do?"

R: "...awfully lot, actually..."

L: "Not after we say the words - and now that I think of it, all we have to do is to make sure that our marriage is fulfilled beyond any doubt. Hm, best if we go off the radar for a while and come back only when I'm pregnant."

R: "But-"

L: "Oh, come on, stu- my prince, what could possibly go wrong?"

LOL Imagine the shocker if the elopement was actually Lyanna's idea and she convinced him

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I absolutely agree with you. There are endless ways to end the saga on a non-cliché more-sweet-than-bitter note for Jon. Not to mention how very :rolleyes: inducing would be to have Jon 'murdered', then 'resurrected' to eventually kill him for good at the end of the saga. It's just that knowing GRRM... well, let's say I try to prepare for disappointment. Just in case ;)

:agree:

Ghost's Shadow posted this in the last thread:

Someone had once posted a pretty clever interpretation of this line; i.e., that the Iron Throne is made of "many swords." In other words, Jon will not forget Ned even when he sits the IT.

:bowdown: This is a great find by Ghost Shadow, it amazes me that as much as we discuss and analyze the text on this thread, there are still so many hidden gems that continue to catch me off guard!

...to which a wild she-wolf might as well say "screw you" :P

Ned labels her as wilful and Meera says that she was used to having her way... I'm almost feeling sorry for Rhaegar:

R: "Oh, my Lady, I love you more than any other, but alas! that is not to be... you are betrothed and I am married, gods will that we cannot be together..."

L: "But of course we can! You are a Targaryen, you can take more than one spouse!"

R: "I am not sure this is a good idea..."

L: "How so? Aegon did it, and does anyone criticise him for that?"

R: "But your Lord father will hardly consent -"

L: "So what? He'll be mad for a while and then he'll forgive me, he always does."

R: "And my father -"

L: "Oh, come on, what can he do?"

R: "...awfully lot, actually..."

L: "Not after we say the words - and now that I think of it, all we have to do is to make sure that our marriage is fulfilled beyond any doubt. Hm, best if we go off the radar for a while and come back only when I'm pregnant."

R: "But-"

L: "Oh, come on, stu- my prince, what could possibly go wrong?"

...

- Makes me think: with all those parallels in Dany's PoVs when it's Jorah who actually brings up the option of polygamy, what if it was really Lyanna herself who brought up the option? :D

Haha I absolutely love this! A lot of ppl always seem to assume that because Rhaegar was the older prince and Lyanna was the young maiden that Rhaegar must have been the one controlling things and Lyanna was no more than a robot taking and following orders from her prince. But I tend to think it's just as likely that Lyanna was the one calling the shots or at least had an equal say in the matter as Rhaegar. I mean come on, "The fair, silver haired, pretty boy prince". With the, "Wild, willful, she-wolf." Ya I could definitely see Rhaegar being totally whipped by Lyanna in that relationship haha, but really..... :whip:

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:agree:

:bowdown: This is a great find by Ghost Shadow, it amazes me that as much as we discuss and analyze the text on this thread, there are still so many hidden gems that continue to catch me off guard!

Haha I absolutely love this! A lot of ppl always seem to assume that because Rhaegar was the older prince and Lyanna was the young maiden that Rhaegar must have been the one controlling things and Lyanna was no more than a robot taking and following orders from her prince. But I tend to think it's just as likely that Lyanna was the one calling the shots or at least had an equal say in the matter as Rhaegar. I mean come on, "The fair, silver haired, pretty boy prince". With the, "Wild, willful, she-wolf." Ya I could definitely see Rhaegar being totally whipped by Lyanna in that relationship haha, but really..... :whip:

I feel like grrm has almost set it up like that. With all the mentions of how she was so willful and the wolf blood. Those things are always mentioned in the same breath. So I wouldn't be surprised if it was a fact. Lol

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I am not aruing the age of majority. I am just wondering if it isn't just more of a custom or a guide of sorts, and the men/women are just expected to act like adults if they wish to be perceived as such. Being that she had to at least be 15, IMO the only thing she was risking was what her father would think, and being the she-wolf I take it she didn't really care about that aspect.

I don't think we're understanding one another. I wrote a post listing a few reasons why the Lyanna/Rhaegar story isn't the cliche romance that the poster Pikachu101 worried it would be. It wasn't an exhaustive list by any means. I was simply pointing out a few reasons. Again, my post was refuting the so-called cliche romantic story, and I just happened to point out that this so-called cliche, cheesy romantic story also included an adult male and an underage female. Doesn't really cause the warm and fuzzies when you really think about it. I wasn't trying to start a debate about whether or not Lyanna's age was more concerning than her doing something without her father's permission.

As far as I recall, Lyanna was not 16 when she was Rhaegar'd. If you have a quote that shows she was 16, please do share so that we all can correct what we know.

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:agree:

:bowdown: This is a great find by Ghost Shadow, it amazes me that as much as we discuss and analyze the text on this thread, there are still so many hidden gems that continue to catch me off guard!

Haha I absolutely love this! A lot of ppl always seem to assume that because Rhaegar was the older prince and Lyanna was the young maiden that Rhaegar must have been the one controlling things and Lyanna was no more than a robot taking and following orders from her prince. But I tend to think it's just as likely that Lyanna was the one calling the shots or at least had an equal say in the matter as Rhaegar. I mean come on, "The fair, silver haired, pretty boy prince". With the, "Wild, willful, she-wolf." Ya I could definitely see Rhaegar being totally whipped by Lyanna in that relationship haha, but really..... :whip:

Or, with most of the kingdom in love with him and he could have anyone he wanted, she might have been the only one NOT to fall all over him and willful enough to defy/deny him, enhancing his determination to have her. :cool4:

It doesn't even sound as if she accepted the crown from him, but he had to lay it in her lap and Ned was the one who touched it. ;)

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Or, with most of the kingdom in love with him and he could have anyone he wanted, she might have been the only one NOT to fall all over him and willful enough to defy/deny him, enhancing his determination to have her. :cool4:

It doesn't even sound as if she accepted the crown from him, but he had to lay it in her lap and Ned was the one who touched it. ;)

She must have liked him (she cried with his playing, which means she had a soft spot) but was playing hard to get because of pride

I can see Arya pulling that

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Interesting point about Howland. I've always kind of kept that option in the back of my mind (I.E., Howland telling some authority what happened) in hopes of a general recognition of Jon when ( :cool4:) he comes into his proper position.

At this point, he exists to tell the details of the story, I suppose, that the readers haven't been exposed to yet. For example, the extent of Rhaegar's plans for Jon and the other kids. I don't think he's told either Jojen or Meera, because, well, they're kids. Remarkable kids, but kids nonetheless.

I could see this revelation from Howland coming around if Stannis takes Winterfell with Manderly and the Karstarks and Jon, freed from his vows, is made Warden of the North. Otherwise, he'll just be one of those frustratingly tantalizing details that Martin loves to insert into his story.

I don't think HR will be meaningless - in fact, I believe that we will visit the Neck soon. We have Robb's will and Ned's bones going that way, and neither has turned up in the North.

Or, with most of the kingdom in love with him and he could have anyone he wanted, she might have been the only one NOT to fall all over him and willful enough to defy/deny him, enhancing his determination to have her. :cool4:

Haha, quite plausible - if only she didn't cry over the song like everyone else ;-)

It doesn't even sound as if she accepted the crown from him, but he had to lay it in her lap and Ned was the one who touched it. ;)

That could have been because she never expected that, though.

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Haha, quite plausible - if only she didn't cry over the song like everyone else ;-)

Maybe that's why she got pissed and turned her wine cup on Benjen's head

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Welcome to the forum! :cheers:

GRRM has stated that he will not change the story just because people might have guessed it. In my opinion, I think GRRM wanted some people to be able to guess R+L=J just from reading AGoT.

Yep, and IIRC he also stated that Jon’s parents will eventually be revealed (http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Many_Questions2). No cliffy there LOL

I can't exactly prove the existence or the lack thereof of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, but this doesn't make such claims any more legitimate.

...to which a wild she-wolf might as well say "screw you" :P

Ned labels her as wilful and Meera says that she was used to having her way... I'm almost feeling sorry for Rhaegar:

R: "Oh, my Lady, I love you more than any other, but alas! that is not to be... you are betrothed and I am married, gods will that we cannot be together..."

L: "But of course we can! You are a Targaryen, you can take more than one spouse!"

R: "I am not sure this is a good idea..."

L: "How so? Aegon did it, and does anyone criticise him for that?"

R: "But your Lord father will hardly consent -"

L: "So what? He'll be mad for a while and then he'll forgive me, he always does."

R: "And my father -"

L: "Oh, come on, what can he do?"

R: "...awfully lot, actually..."

L: "Not after we say the words - and now that I think of it, all we have to do is to make sure that our marriage is fulfilled beyond any doubt. Hm, best if we go off the radar for a while and come back only when I'm pregnant."

R: "But-"

L: "Oh, come on, stu- my prince, what could possibly go wrong?"

...

- Makes me think: with all those parallels in Dany's PoVs when it's Jorah who actually brings up the option of polygamy, what if it was really Lyanna herself who brought up the option? :D

Our Ygrain: not a fox, a khaleesi ;)

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Exactly. And anyway, are there any textual clues, foreshadowings, metaphors, allegories, little snipets or pun lines pointing to such a bizarre theory?

p.s. Guys, the story belongs to GRRM: if you think you can't stand the idea of letting his talent and creativity spin his own story, better stop reading. I for myself will accept any development. Cause - I'm sure - it will be masterfully handled.

When I read fan-imagined endings I'm almost always thankful that real authors actually exist. ;)

Btw, I was rereading your excellent Tristifer analysis, and I became curious about the "wild roses." I googled them and found a couple of potentially interesting pieces of information. They're sometimes called dog roses. A wolf is a type of dog, so how about wolf rose, or maybe more precisely, wild wolf rose? "[W]ild roses" itself was already suggestive of Lyanna, but the connection becomes even more apparent once you also add dog/wolf to the roses.

Aside from that, "the dog rose was the stylized rose of medieval European heraldry, and is still used today." Meaning that heraldic roses were modeled on this particular rose. Photo.

So, from "wild roses" we get "rose," "wild," "dog/wolf," "Lyanna." If we add "heraldry," it seems like this might be another suggestion that Jon's heraldic symbol will be the wild-wolf-Lyanna rose; aka, the blue winter rose.

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Maybe that's why she got pissed and turned her wine cup on Benjen's head

She thought, "damn, I'm falling for a trope, that's bad for my image" ;-)

Our Ygrain: not a fox, a khaleesi ;)

Lol, you think I might use this to support my authority in the ToJ debates? :D

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When I read fan-imagined endings I'm almost always thankful that real authors actually exist. ;)

Btw, I was rereading your excellent Tristifer analysis, and I became curious about the "wild roses." I googled them and found a couple of potentially interesting pieces of information. They're sometimes called dog roses. A wolf is a type of dog, so how about wolf rose, or maybe more precisely, wild wolf rose? "[W]ild roses" itself was already suggestive of Lyanna, but the connection becomes even more apparent once you also add dog/wolf to the roses.

Aside from that, "the dog rose was the stylized rose of medieval European heraldry, and is still used today." Meaning that heraldic roses were modeled on this particular rose. Photo.

So, from "wild roses" we get "rose," "wild," "dog/wolf," "Lyanna." If we add "heraldry," it seems like this might be another suggestion that Jon's heraldic symbol will be the wild-wolf-Lyanna rose; aka, the blue winter rose.

The botanician must wonder: do blue winter roses look like this, or are they rather like the garden roses? If there was a garland of them, a brambler type with softer stems would be more convenient.

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Also in regards to the rumor that Lyanna was taken at "sword point", I think it's quite possible that the only reason swords were drawn was because Lyanna being the wild she-wolf that she was, very well could have been the one who drew the first sword, therefore causing Dayne and Whent to draw their swords out of protective instinct, even though that might not have been their initial intention.

Now I don't want to make this seem like it was all Lyanna's fault because it definitely wasn't, Rhaegar also had a huge part to play. But otoh I really don't think Lyanna was the shy, innocent, helpless, young maiden during that process with Rhaegar, that Robert tries to make her seem like.

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The botanician must wonder: do blue winter roses look like this, or are they rather like the garden roses? If there was a garland of them, a brambler type with softer stems would be more convenient.

I'm not really sure. I was only noting the connections between "Lyanna," "rose" and "heraldry," and how they might indicate "blue rose sigil" when combined.

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I wonder if its a case of something they did for a reason which has been lost in the mists of time? As noted in the previous thread, iron isn't effective on wights (poor Will!) and we have yet to see it employed against Others.

Er, possible oops? I said in the other thread that I thought the NW were fighting with iron swords, I think, but I don't think that's correct.

Will had castle-forged steel on him, and I searched in books 1, 2 and 3 for 'iron'. Lots of doors and the swords in the crypts of Winterfell, but no iron swords for the Watch (unless someone things/saw different).

I did find this in Dance when changing to 'obsidian':

The soldier pines and sentinels wore thick white coats, and icicles draped the bare brown limbs of the broadleafs. Jon sent Tom Barleycorn ahead to scout for them, though the way to the white grove was oft trod and familiar. Big Liddle and Luke of Longtown slipped into the brush to east and west. They would flank the column to give warning of any approach. All were seasoned rangers, armed with obsidian as well as steel, warhorns slung across their saddles should they need to summon help.

So if this is correct, no iron went near the Others/Wights yet? And does that mean the swords in the crypts are not what one would normally fight with (so not like the person's old sword), but they were made especially for the tombs?

I'm sorry if I confused anyone, I really don't know my materials. :bang: :blushing:

Need to read up on a bit again, as I'm a few pages behind. :)

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When I read fan-imagined endings I'm almost always thankful that real authors actually exist. ;)

Btw, I was rereading your excellent Tristifer analysis, and I became curious about the "wild roses." I googled them and found a couple of potentially interesting pieces of information. They're sometimes called dog roses. A wolf is a type of dog, so how about wolf rose, or maybe more precisely, wild wolf rose? "[W]ild roses" itself was already suggestive of Lyanna, but the connection becomes even more apparent once you also add dog/wolf to the roses.

Aside from that, "the dog rose was the stylized rose of medieval European heraldry, and is still used today." Meaning that heraldic roses were modeled on this particular rose. Photo.

So, from "wild roses" we get "rose," "wild," "dog/wolf," "Lyanna." If we add "heraldry," it seems like this might be another suggestion that Jon's heraldic symbol will be the wild-wolf-Lyanna rose; aka, the blue winter rose.

We have everything: warhammers and wild roses, wolves and wolves/dog roses, crowns and heraldry, harps and snow (http://asoiaf.wester...80#entry4575926)

Gods! Now that you linked that pic of a dog rose... I can't stop picturing this:

http://winteriscoming.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/littlefinger-varys.jpg

http://static.tvfana...throne-room.jpg

http://gameofthrones...240720222_n.jpg

The dog rose was right there, under our very nose. No need to symbolize to connect the visuals to the text.

That which we call a rose / By any other name would smell as sweet...

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The botanician must wonder: do blue winter roses look like this, or are they rather like the garden roses? If there was a garland of them, a brambler type with softer stems would be more convenient.

You prompted me to do something I'd never done before- google "winter rose"

Now I've googled "blue winter rose" plenty of times, but that inevitably brings you to asoiaf links and images.

Imagine my surprise at discovering that the winter rose (aka Christmas rose) is none other than hellebore, a lovely but extremely poisonous plant.

http://www.finegardening.com/plantguide/genus/helleborus.aspx

Now I wonder if GRRM knows this?

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She must have liked him (she cried with his playing, which means she had a soft spot) but was playing hard to get because of pride

I can see Arya pulling that

Oh, I don't think she didn't love him, but I also think it was much more complicated.

But in terms of the crying scene, I don't know if I rely on that particular event to inform me of her feelings when a couple of books later, JonCon clarifies, that everyone cried when Rhaegar sang, "except for the men of course," but I think that statement if fairly deliberate, because it's a statement that isn't really necessary to clarifiy Rhaegar's appeal - at least not when he has all that fabulous silver hair.

When I read fan-imagined endings I'm almost always thankful that real authors actually exist. ;)

Btw, I was rereading your excellent Tristifer analysis, and I became curious about the "wild roses." I googled them and found a couple of potentially interesting pieces of information. They're sometimes called dog roses. A wolf is a type of dog, so how about wolf rose, or maybe more precisely, wild wolf rose? "[W]ild roses" itself was already suggestive of Lyanna, but the connection becomes even more apparent once you also add dog/wolf to the roses.

Aside from that, "the dog rose was the stylized rose of medieval European heraldry, and is still used today." Meaning that heraldic roses were modeled on this particular rose. Photo.

So, from "wild roses" we get "rose," "wild," "dog/wolf," "Lyanna." If we add "heraldry," it seems like this might be another suggestion that Jon's heraldic symbol will be the wild-wolf-Lyanna rose; aka, the blue winter rose.

I would just add to your great analysis the symbolism of the Blue Rose itself:

 

 

"The rose is an absolutely amazing flower. Whatever its color the flower itself is a vision of absolute fragility and delicate grace. The rose is also an extraordinary flower in that it has so many shades, some natural, and some man made. But each shade has a meaning of its own. Have you ever wondered what the meaning of blue roses could be?

The blue rose does not occur in nature, at least not the absolute blue rose. Blue roses were at first created by dyeing white roses. Some people mistake lavender roses for blue ones. So, the closest we can get to blue roses are the lilac to almost black category. Roses lack the pigment that produces blue color. The blue rose has been painstakingly created and imbued with a special meaning.

Much like its mysterious origin, the blue rose means mystery. An appreciation for the enigmatic, the inexplicable is expressed by the blue rose. A tantalizing vision that cannot be totally pinned down, a mystery that cannot be fully unraveled is the blue rose. A person who receives the blue rose is the subject of much speculation and thought. A complex personality that does not allow easy interpretation is what the blue rose indicates.

Another meaning of the blue rose is that it symbolizes the impossible, or the unattainable. Since the blue rose itself is a rarity in nature, it stands for something that is hardly within one's grasp, an object that seems too difficult to be achieved. Thus the blue rose is admired and revered as an unrealizable dream.

The blue rose being in itself something very extraordinary expresses that very same feeling. "You are extraordinarily wonderful", the blue rose exclaims. A truly wonderful personality, almost chimera-like is what the blue rose says about the receiver. A flight of fancy, an irrepressible imagination is what the blue rose is all about.

Blue and its deeper shade purple have for long symbolized mystery and ambiguity. Again, the fact that the blue rose is a flower that has been fabricated increases this sense of surrealism. The meaning of the blue rose in this sense is an appreciation for something that cannot be grasped in full measure.

The lighter shade of the blue rose, which is almost akin to lilac, expresses the first flush of love. Enchantment, a feeling of being completely bowled over in the very first instance is another delightful meaning of the blue rose. Lavender and lilac have both been associated with romance since time immemorial.

The blue rose is also used as a symbol of caution. It expresses a need to be discrete. Again, there is a whiff of secrecy and mystery as expressed by the blue color.

New opportunities and new possibilities are also some other meanings of the blue rose. The blue rose denotes the excitement and the possibilities that new ventures bring. The mysterious beginnings of new things and the excitement therein are very nicely expressed by this flower.

The blue rose is a flower that seeks to convey a message of mystery, enchantment and a sense of the impossible. One should never forget that as a flower that is not found freely in nature, the blue rose has a certain charm and unique mystery that does not reveal itself freely.

Fantasy and impossibility. Hoping for a miracle and new possibilities. Many people have a quest or a fascination for blue roses. I have a book by Ibn al Awam, which was written in the twelfth century, translated into French by J. J. Clement entitled Le livre de l'agriculture. the book speaks of azure blue roses that were known to the orient. These blue roses were attained by placing a blue die into the bark of the roots. This process is explained in the book and has been proven to work by Joret, a very knowledgeable french scientist."

The unattainable, the impossible"

While Lyanna may have returned Rhaegars feelings, their situations, particulary hers given what her place in society would be after she was married to Robert, would render her "unattainable," and their love "impossible."

Martin doesn't give us much in way of the written word to describe Lyanna beyond a few key sentences, or what Rhaegar may have thought of her, but his use of symbolism is genius.

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You think Jon's gonna find out about his parentage in Winds?

even if he doesn't, I think the clues are gonna be bigger and way more obvious in this book

most like we will be given hint and allegation and things left unsaid just as we have been all along. All will be revealed but only in GRRM's good time.

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Er, possible oops? I said in the other thread that I thought the NW were fighting with iron swords, I think, but I don't think that's correct.

Will had castle-forged steel on him, and I searched in books 1, 2 and 3 for 'iron'. Lots of doors and the swords in the crypts of Winterfell, but no iron swords for the Watch (unless someone things/saw different).

I did find this in Dance when changing to 'obsidian':

So if this is correct, no iron went near the Others/Wights yet? And does that mean the swords in the crypts are not what one would normally fight with (so not like the person's old sword), but they were made especially for the tombs?

I'm sorry if I confused anyone, I really don't know my materials. :bang: :blushing:

Need to read up on a bit again, as I'm a few pages behind. :)

It was actually Wildblood who said there had been no Iron vs Others yet. I believe I found confirmation of that in another thread (maybe Old Gods, Cold Gods & Starks? -- I've read quite a few on it lately) Also quite a bit of interesting discussion on the origins of iron in Westeros and its current placement being significant. Search the forum for iron + others if you want to read more :)

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