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Stubby

R+L=J v.53

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I just started watching this video (An evening with Game of Thrones)

and @ 6:25 D.B. Weiss states, that at their first meeting GRRM asked them (him and Benioff) who Jon Snow's mother is. He also states that they gave the right answer. Now, at the time of the meeting, ASOS was the last published book, so I kinda think their answer must have been Lyanna, wouldn't you agree?

I do hope this hasn't been mentioned here before, however if that's the case, please let me know.

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It has, but the contribution of a newcomer is always appreciated. Welcome! :)

ETA You'll find this postling by our King o' the Board Run even more intriguing:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/80763-m-l-j-and-qhorin-knewsuspected-it-no-crackpot/page__st__40#entry4088451

It confirms that people involved in pre-production were asked the infamous question after only reading the manuscript of aGoT. So all the important clues to undisclose Jon's parentage are in the very first book.

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I don't think HR will be meaningless - in fact, I believe that we will visit the Neck soon. We have Robb's will and Ned's bones going that way, and neither has turned up in the North.

Haha, quite plausible - if only she didn't cry over the song like everyone else ;-)

That could have been because she never expected that, though.

Yeah, I think shock was a big part of that.

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Also in regards to the rumor that Lyanna was taken at "sword point", I think it's quite possible that the only reason swords were drawn was because Lyanna being the wild she-wolf that she was, very well could have been the one who drew the first sword, therefore causing Dayne and Whent to draw their swords out of protective instinct, even though that might not have been their initial intention.

Now I don't want to make this seem like it was all Lyanna's fault because it definitely wasn't, Rhaegar also had a huge part to play. But otoh I really don't think Lyanna was the shy, innocent, helpless, young maiden during that process with Rhaegar, that Robert tries to make her seem like.

Lyanna picking a fight with a Crown Prince?

Oh nooooo, neither she, (or Arya) would ever do that. :wideeyed:

(I'm sure she made it up to him at the Tower of Joy, because it didn't get it's name for nothing). :blushing:

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We have everything: warhammers and wild roses, wolves and wolves/dog roses, crowns and heraldry, harps and snow (http://asoiaf.wester...80#entry4575926)

Gods! Now that you linked that pic of a dog rose... I can't stop picturing this:

http://images4.fanpo...293092_full.jpg

http://static.tvfana...throne-room.jpg

http://gameofthrones...240720222_n.jpg

The dog rose was right there, under our very nose. No need to symbolize to connect the visuals to the text.

That which we call a rose / By any other name would smell as sweet...

The GoT blue roses were a nice find. Especially since one of them shows up in the show's version of the HotU. Seeing the wild rose photo reminded me of WotR heraldry.

You prompted me to do something I'd never done before- google "winter rose"

Now I've googled "blue winter rose" plenty of times, but that inevitably brings you to asoiaf links and images.

Imagine my surprise at discovering that the winter rose (aka Christmas rose) is none other than hellebore, a lovely but extremely poisonous plant.

http://www.finegarde...helleborus.aspx

Now I wonder if GRRM knows this?

Great find! Frey Family Reunion mentioned this to me a while back, but when I googled "christmas rose," I think it was, I didn't find it.

<snip>

Blue roses are also associated with royalty and the holy grail. I believe Lady Gwyn was comparing Lyanna to the holy grail/sangreal earlier.

Blue rose meanings.

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Lyanna picking a fight with a Crown Prince?

Oh nooooo, neither she, (or Arya) would ever do that. :wideeyed:

(I'm sure she made it up to him at the Tower of Joy, because it didn't get it's name for nothing). :blushing:

Haha exactly. :smileysex:

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The GoT blue roses were a nice find. Especially since one of them shows up in the show's version of the HotU. Seeing the wild rose photo reminded me of WotR heraldry.

Great find! Frey Family Reunion mentioned this to me a while back, but when I googled "christmas rose," I think it was, I didn't find it.

Blue roses are also associated with royalty and the holy grail. I believe Lady Gwyn was comparing Lyanna to the holy grail/sangreal earlier.

Blue rose meanings.

Interesting associations!

I must say the line "the best source for these [blue rose] flower arrangements is an online florist" made me :lol:

Seriously, the bit about blue roses also being associated with the need for discretion was a new one and pretty appropriate. I continue to see new dimensions to the grail analogy, I think this one has a lot of potential :)

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Haha exactly. :smileysex:

Why is it always you that finds the appropriate use for that smiley Jon Icefyre?

:lmao:

Ps- great point Alia!

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The GoT blue roses were a nice find. Especially since one of them shows up in the show's version of the HotU. Seeing the wild rose photo reminded me of WotR heraldry.

Great find! Frey Family Reunion mentioned this to me a while back, but when I googled "christmas rose," I think it was, I didn't find it.

Blue roses are also associated with royalty and the holy grail. I believe Lady Gwyn was comparing Lyanna to the holy grail/sangreal earlier.

Blue rose meanings.

She was the good Lady Gywn was, I had forgotten that analogy.

Thanks for reminding me.

Interesting associations!

I must say the line "the best source for these [blue rose] flower arrangements is an online florist" made me :lol:

Seriously, the bit about blue roses also being associated with the need for discretion was a new one and pretty appropriate. I continue to see new dimensions to the grail analogy, I think this one has a lot of potential :)

The online Florist.

They are the "alchemists" of our day. Do not underestimate the power of FTD. :D

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Why is it always you that finds the appropriate use for that smiley Jon Icefyre?

:lmao:

Ps- great point Alia!

LMFAO it does seem that way doesn't it lol?

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And after two Sangrias,

I'm pondering the mysteries of life, and the fifteen year-old Wylla Manderly.

Why does she dye her hair green, though her brows be blonde, and give a rebellious speech worthy of her cousin Arya, where Wylla must be dragged from the hall by her "mother."?

Why does a Northern girl have a Dornish woman's name?

And why is her speech about how in the wolfs den, sore beset and friendless, the Starks took them in? As if one day the Manderly's might repay that with taking in a "Stark"(Targaryen)...... and be about the business of restoring that line- much like the Martells........

Who needs to wait upon Howland Reed?

:idea:

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Also in regards to the rumor that Lyanna was taken at "sword point", I think it's quite possible that the only reason swords were drawn was because Lyanna being the wild she-wolf that she was, very well could have been the one who drew the first sword, therefore causing Dayne and Whent to draw their swords out of protective instinct, even though that might not have been their initial intention.

Now I don't want to make this seem like it was all Lyanna's fault because it definitely wasn't, Rhaegar also had a huge part to play. But otoh I really don't think Lyanna was the shy, innocent, helpless, young maiden during that process with Rhaegar, that Robert tries to make her seem like.

Wasn't she forbidden to carry a sword?

And after two Sangrias,

I'm pondering the mysteries of life, and the fifteen year-old Wylla Manderly.

Why does she dye her hair green, though her brows be blonde, and give a rebellious speech worthy of her cousin Arya, where Wylla must be dragged from the hall by her "mother."?

Why does a Northern girl have a Dornish woman's name?

And why is her speech about how in the wolfs den, sore beset and friendless, the Starks took them in? As if one day the Manderly's might repay that with taking in a "Stark"(Targaryen)...... and be about the business of restoring that line- much like the Martells........

Who needs to wait upon Howland Reed?

:idea:

The Manderlys are originally from the Reach, the name could have originated in the South and been brought North with them.

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Wasn't she forbidden to carry a sword?

Didn't stop her from sword fighting with Benjen or most likely being TKOTLT, and even she didn't have an actual 'sword' on her it doesn't mean she couldn't have had a blade/dagger of some sort hidden on her that she might have drawn. I mean just look at Areo Hotah's pov chapter when he's describing how innocent some of the sand snakes looked in appearance to the unsuspecting eye, and yet he knew better because he knew in reality they had several deadly blades/daggers hidden under their attire. I can definitely imagine Lyanna having that same sort of deadly deception with her attire.....

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The GoT blue roses were a nice find. Especially since one of them shows up in the show's version of the HotU. Seeing the wild rose photo reminded me of WotR heraldry.

Great find! Frey Family Reunion mentioned this to me a while back, but when I googled "christmas rose," I think it was, I didn't find it.

Blue roses are also associated with royalty and the holy grail. I believe Lady Gwyn was comparing Lyanna to the holy grail/sangreal earlier.

Blue rose meanings.

I changed the link of the first image. The old one kept on being readdressed :dunno:

New link: http://winteriscoming.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/littlefinger-varys.jpg

The blue flower window design is so very similar both to the wild rose shape and the WotR heraldry. Amazing. As for Lyanna's womb as the 'cup of life' aka sang real kudos to you both for your endless awesomeness :bowdown:

Why is it always you that finds the appropriate use for that smiley Jon Icefyre?

:lmao:

Second. Talking of naughty smileys... Can't help but wondering how 'joyous' must have been the clash of the dragon blood's quiet intensity against the wolf blood's wild quality :leer:

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Well, I just thought of something that I hope has not been thought of before.

If Rhaegar sent the Kingsguard to protect Lyanna-and, by proxy, Jon, his heir- Why the hell were they not doing that?

Lyanna died. Worse, it seems she died of childbirth problems. Now, childbirth usually takes a long time, starting from the water breaking to the actual birth of the baby. You are telling me that none of the present Kingsguard checked on her at all? Why did Rhaegar not leave a Maester with them, as he knew he may not come back from the Trident, and he knew Lyanna was pregnant? It seems a bit of a risk, at least to me.

I was going to post this as a new topic, but thought I might as well post it here. Easier that way. And sorry if this has been brought up. I do not have the time to look through the past 50+ topics on this...

Thoughts?

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A Kingsguard really cannot help much with the birthing process itself, but we think that Ser Arthur Dayne did call in for help from his nearby home of Starfall in the form of the wetnurse Wylla, and perhaps more people (staff, Maester?).

The tower they were hiding in might not have been ideal to give birth in, not as hygienic a room as a normal lady of her status would give birth in, which might have caused the infection/fever she died from, though there's plenty of other reasons one might die in the birthing bed and there's not much the people of those days could do against it (bleeding out).

There's plenty of examples in the text that has women die in their bed of blood, e.g. Rhaella died giving birth to Dany, Joanna Lannister died giving birth to Tyrion, Lyanna apparently from Jon, didn't the Tully mother also die? Giving birth was not an easy thing these days and GRRM really rubs that in with the amount of women that died from it in his books.

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Ghost's Shadow is absolutely correct- having a child is a dangerous business. Estimates of medieval maternal mortality vary from 1-5%. However, since medieval women had more children than modern women their chance of dying in childbed was greater (thank you Margaret Sanger!)

The interesting thing is that there is a scholarly belief that maternal mortality actually spiked in the 18th and 19th centuries due to the increasing dominance of the new field of obstetrics. The intervention of doctors, it turns out, was not a good thing prior to the age of antibiotics. Intervention tactics, when used improperly, introduce too much bacteria into the equation.

So the point? Don't be too quick to assume a Maester could have saved Lyanna. Post partum hemorrhage is a very difficult complication to control, even in modern childbirth it remains a grave danger. Infection is still a grave risk as well. Without antibiotics and blood transfusions, modern maternal mortality would be much higher.

From a textual point of view, we have no reason to assume there were not birth attendants with Lyanna. In fact, the one slim textual evidence we have seems to indicate there were people with her. When Ned recalls her deathbed, he thinks

They found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his.

(emphasis mine)

"They" implies the presence of at least one person other than HR. Let's face it, three knights and a noble girl in a tower couldn't have been getting along without some aid from servants. Squire, groom, cook, washerwoman etc. All these functions had to be filled by someone, in addition to the obvious problem of having a young girl expecting her first child. I for one am confident that there were smallfolk there, and a midwife at least, and that all of those invisible people melted back into Dorne when Ned removed Jon and Lyanna's body from the Tower.

Eta- @Angel's Prophet, just reread your post. It sounds like you may be thinking that Lyanna was actually delivering the baby when Ned arrived? If so, remember that Ned describes her fever, which indicates puerperal fever, which can take time to set in and up to 7-10 days to cause death. Pair that with post partum hemorrhage, another condition that doesn't necessarily set in immediately, and you could have a situation where a birth appears to go smoothly but then things go downhill fast.

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Second. Talking of naughty smileys... Can't help but wondering how 'joyous' must have been the clash of the dragon blood's quiet intensity against the wolf blood's wild quality :leer:

Now there's an RLJ sub-topic we haven't really given its full due! ;)

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Poor Rhaegar... :lol:

People are quick to shove all the blame for what happened in his shoes, but he must have suffered quite some at the hands of that she-wolf, too. :P

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I just started watching this video (An evening with Game of Thrones)

and @ 6:25 D.B. Weiss states, that at their first meeting GRRM asked them (him and Benioff) who Jon Snow's mother is. He also states that they gave the right answer. Now, at the time of the meeting, ASOS was the last published book, so I kinda think their answer must have been Lyanna, wouldn't you agree?

I do hope this hasn't been mentioned here before, however if that's the case, please let me know.

Interesting. I can't view videos on my computer right now, so I'm curious in what context the question was asked? Was GRRM sizing them up to see if they were worthy to turn the books into a tv series?

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