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Stubby

R+L=J v.53

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"They" implies the presence of at least one person other than HR. Let's face it, three knights and a noble girl in a tower couldn't have been getting along without some aid from servants. Squire, groom, cook, washerwoman etc. All these functions had to be filled by someone, in addition to the obvious problem of having a young girl expecting her first child. I for one am confident that there were smallfolk there, and a midwife at least, and that all of those invisible people melted back into Dorne when Ned removed Jon and Lyanna's body from the Tower.

I stuck on this wording myself and though just a bit differently...

We know that Ned was moments away from being slain by Arthur Dayne, only to be saved by Howland Reed.

But Howland Reed was never described as a good fighter (outside a swamp with traps) thus i have a very hard time to be-leave that he managed to kill Dayne by force.

I mean, a small Crannogman that was picked on by teenage squires defeating someone that GRRM himself have claimed to have been victorious against a prime Barristan the Bold if he held his sword Dawn ?

Even if Reed put 5 arrows in his back he would have killed Ned, something else stopped him!

This lead me to be-leave that Arthur Dayne was stopped from killing Ned by words.

Reed was a cunning man and both him and Ned knew that Lyanna had come there by her own will, he also understood that the Kingsguard would only be there if Lyanna had given birth to a Targaryen heir.

Thus he proposed a deal with Dayne as he was ready to strike his sword into Ned, that they would keep the child safe (Something Dayne knew he had no chance of doing himself) explaining that Ned could take him as his own bastard.

That's why i think Arthur Dayne is still alive, and will return to Jon's side when he is revealed to the realm as a Targaryen, he gave Ned his sword Dawn as a "proof" of his death and went into exile to avoid risking Jon's life.

"They" implies that more then one person found Ned at Lyannas side, but if Ned and Reed had just slain the guards i really doubt any "small folk" or wetnurses would have come looking for Ned together with Reed.

Any "small folk" present would have been hiding in fear! Reed and Dayne found Ned at Lyannas side.

The book also says that Ned an Reed where the only survivors.... but we all know that was a lie with Jon alive

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I stuck on this wording myself and though just a bit differently...

We know that Ned was moments away from being slain by Arthur Dayne, only to be saved by Howland Reed.

But Howland Reed was never described as a good fighter (outside a swamp with traps) thus i have a very hard time to be-leave that he managed to kill Dayne by force.

I mean, a small Crannogman that was picked on by teenage squires defeating someone that GRRM himself have claimed to have been victorious against a prime Barristan the Bold if he held his sword Dawn ?

Even if Reed put 5 arrows in his back he would have killed Ned, something else stopped him!

This lead me to be-leave that Arthur Dayne was stopped from killing Ned by words.

Reed was a cunning man and both him and Ned knew that Lyanna had come there by her own will, he also understood that the Kingsguard would only be there if Lyanna had given birth to a Targaryen heir.

Thus he proposed a deal with Dayne as he was ready to strike his sword into Ned, that they would keep the child safe (Something Dayne knew he had no chance of doing himself) explaining that Ned could take him as his own bastard.

That's why i think Arthur Dayne is still alive, and will return to Jon's side when he is revealed to the realm as a Targaryen, he gave Ned his sword Dawn as a "proof" of his death and went into exile to avoid risking Jon's life.

"They" implies that more then one person found Ned at Lyannas side, but if Ned and Reed had just slain the guards i really doubt any "small folk" or wetnurses would have come looking for Ned together with Reed.

Any "small folk" present would have been hiding in fear! Reed and Dayne found Ned at Lyannas side.

The book also says that Ned an Reed where the only survivors.... but we all know that was a lie with Jon alive

That's quite a couple of unbased assumptions. The fact that HR somehow prevented Dayne from killing Ned doesn't mean that he had to beat Arthur in fight - causing a distraction giving Ned enough time to deal a blow would have been enough. Using poisoned arrows or a weapon/tactics that Dayne was not used to would have made a difference, as well (and we actually have a precedent for this, in one of Barristan chapters - he thinks that a whip is no use against an armoured knight, until he sees how efficiently the whip can be used for hampering the opponent's moveablity).

I do not see why smallfolk should necessarily hide from Ned, and if there was a midwife taking care of Lyanna, she would be perfectly entitled to enter.

The book doesn't lie, it only provides incomplete information - it doesn't mention Jon, because it specifically refers only to those entering the fight - seven against three but only two rode away, out of this particular number. It doesn't meant that there were no other people present.

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That's quite a couple of unbased assumptions. The fact that HR somehow prevented Dayne from killing Ned doesn't mean that he had to beat Arthur in fight - causing a distraction giving Ned enough time to deal a blow would have been enough. Using poisoned arrows or a weapon/tactics that Dayne was not used to would have made a difference, as well (and we actually have a precedent for this, in one of Barristan chapters - he thinks that a whip is no use against an armoured knight, until he sees how efficiently the whip can be used for hampering the opponent's moveablity).

I do not see why smallfolk should necessarily hide from Ned, and if there was a midwife taking care of Lyanna, she would be perfectly entitled to enter.

The book doesn't lie, it only provides incomplete information - it doesn't mention Jon, because it specifically refers only to those entering the fight - seven against three but only two rode away, out of this particular number. It doesn't meant that there were no other people present.

Exactly.

AGoT, chapter 39, Eddard POV:

They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed.

Unless Ned is lying to himself in his own head :shocked: there's no doubt Arthur Dayne is dead.

Now there's an RLJ sub-topic we haven't really given its full due! ;)

Well... http://fc00.devianta...ggs-d54hu0b.jpg

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This lead me to be-leave that Arthur Dayne was stopped from killing Ned by words.

Reed was a cunning man and both him and Ned knew that Lyanna had come there by her own will, he also understood that the Kingsguard would only be there if Lyanna had given birth to a Targaryen heir.

Thus he proposed a deal with Dayne as he was ready to strike his sword into Ned, that they would keep the child safe (Something Dayne knew he had no chance of doing himself) explaining that Ned could take him as his own bastard.

:agree:

Yup.

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Unless Ned is lying to himself in his own mind :shocked: there's no doubt Arthur Dayne is dead.

I predict that it turns out Arthur Dayne killed himself at the Tower of Joy.

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Welcome to the forum! :cheers:

GRRM has stated that he will not change the story just because people might have guessed it. In my opinion, I think GRRM wanted some people to be able to guess R+L=J just from reading AGoT.

I am along for the ride where ever the driver (grrm) decides to take us. ;)

Welcome to the forum :cheers:

Welcome:)

Concerning A): It would make little to no sense to me, if George RR Martin carefully drops hints throughout the book that all point in one direction, why would he disregard all these with no clue in advance? The theory itself is already a giant twist (I know of (casual) readers who never questioned Jon's parentage at all), so why would he artfully construct a hidden story if he was going to destroy it after all?

If it was something no one has thought about yet, I would be perfectly fine with it (as long as it works with the story and explains the evidence pointing towards R-L=J), but it just does not seem this way.

B ) : Again, the first part of A), why construct such a well-thought scenario, just to drop it? This just does not add up. I highly doubt that George RR Martin would drop such a complex, layered scenario just because many people have guessed it, and as I said, I don't think that many people know of it.

Eta: someone was faster^^

I totally agree with your views and deep down that's just what I thought , maybe I am having all these stupid doubts because I am afraid ,because I really really want it to be confirmed in the next books.

What I believe after all is that the revelation of Jon's parentage by R+L will be accompanied by a great load of details and facts we didn't know.Because now, we only speculate about the details around R+L=J.

I can't wait for until that happens.

Till then , I'll be seeking my solace in these threads.It's always entertaining to read what other readers of aSoIaF have to say.

^^

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About Lyanna crying when Rhaegar sang his harp song...

I have heard another theory too, not from this forum, although I believe someone must have written it here as well.

Ok we know she was feisty, she was a she-wolf and the kind of girl who doesn't fall easily for the handsome prince however she cried because she was moved by Rhaegar's song.

Some propose that they may have already had something going and that the song made her cry because it was sang for her, and it had some hidden context about their supposed love.I don't know.

I would really love to know the lyrics of that song.

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Hello! So I'm giving up my AFOIAF maidenhead with this post, even though I've been lurking around this site for a long while now:

I too am a subscriber to the R+L=J theory in general. But here's my thing: Doesn't it seem ridiculously coincidental that years after Lyanna runs off with/ is abducted by Rhaegar, Eddard and his war champions would raid the ToJ and finish the battle at the very same moment that Lyanna died in childbirth, such that Ned literally walks into the room at the perfect moment to be handed the baby Jon and promise to keep her secret as she takes her final breath? It just seems outlandish to me that, in a scale of years, that Eddard would arrive at the very moment Lyanna dies of natural causes. Perhaps there was some other, more disturbing cause of death, that was contingent on the KG failing?

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

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I totally agree with your views and deep down that's just what I thought , maybe I am having all these stupid doubts because I am afraid ,because I really really want it to be confirmed in the next books.

What I believe after all is that the revelation of Jon's parentage by R+L will be accompanied by a great load of details and facts we didn't know.Because now, we only speculate about the details around R+L=J.

I can't wait for until that happens.

Till then , I'll be seeking my solace in these threads.It's always entertaining to read what other readers of aSoIaF have to say.

^^

I'm not sure that is going to happen and I am sure that I don't want it to happen ^_^

There are some factors not to be neglected, a significant amount of witnesses such as Rhaegar, Lyanna, the KG and Ned, too, are dead, they probably won't reveal anything.

And for the latter: for me, part of the fascination with the whole scenario stems from the mystery and the secrecy surrounding it. While I would like Jon to find out the truth about his parentage,

I'm not fond of the idea that all or most details will be revealed, I am of the opinion that spelling everything out would break the spell.

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Hello! So I'm giving up my AFOIAF maidenhead with this post, even though I've been lurking around this site for a long while now:

I too am a subscriber to the R+L=J theory in general. But here's my thing: Doesn't it seem ridiculously coincidental that years after Lyanna runs off with/ is abducted by Rhaegar, Eddard and his war champions would raid the ToJ and finish the battle at the very same moment that Lyanna died in childbirth, such that Ned literally walks into the room at the perfect moment to be handed the baby Jon and promise to keep her secret as she takes her final breath? It just seems outlandish to me that, in a scale of years, that Eddard would arrive at the very moment Lyanna dies of natural causes. Perhaps there was some other, more disturbing cause of death, that was contingent on the KG failing?

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

The simple answer is that Ned received a message that brought him to the ToJ just in time.

Eta- welcome to the boards! :cheers:

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Hello! So I'm giving up my AFOIAF maidenhead with this post, even though I've been lurking around this site for a long while now:

I too am a subscriber to the R+L=J theory in general. But here's my thing: Doesn't it seem ridiculously coincidental that years after Lyanna runs off with/ is abducted by Rhaegar, Eddard and his war champions would raid the ToJ and finish the battle at the very same moment that Lyanna died in childbirth, such that Ned literally walks into the room at the perfect moment to be handed the baby Jon and promise to keep her secret as she takes her final breath? It just seems outlandish to me that, in a scale of years, that Eddard would arrive at the very moment Lyanna dies of natural causes. Perhaps there was some other, more disturbing cause of death, that was contingent on the KG failing?

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Hello and welcome ^_^

Well I had these thoughts once but reading through the posts and threads I realised that Ned didn't arrive there at THE moment of childbirth.he arrived some time later and Lyanna was probably dying by childbed fever (aka puerperal infection). Maybe she had given birth days or a couple of weeks ago.

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Hello! So I'm giving up my AFOIAF maidenhead with this post, even though I've been lurking around this site for a long while now:

I too am a subscriber to the R+L=J theory in general. But here's my thing: Doesn't it seem ridiculously coincidental that years after Lyanna runs off with/ is abducted by Rhaegar, Eddard and his war champions would raid the ToJ and finish the battle at the very same moment that Lyanna died in childbirth, such that Ned literally walks into the room at the perfect moment to be handed the baby Jon and promise to keep her secret as she takes her final breath? It just seems outlandish to me that, in a scale of years, that Eddard would arrive at the very moment Lyanna dies of natural causes. Perhaps there was some other, more disturbing cause of death, that was contingent on the KG failing?

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

As has been said above, Ned didn't arrive at the moment of childbirth but some time later, and probably in answer to a message from Lyanna - he knew where to go, took only a small group of trusted companions with him, and Lyanna dying after she was able to extract the promise from him suggests that she had been lingering and clinging onto life with sheer will until he arrived; that's not unheard of.

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I stuck on this wording myself and though just a bit differently...

We know that Ned was moments away from being slain by Arthur Dayne, only to be saved by Howland Reed.

But Howland Reed was never described as a good fighter (outside a swamp with traps) thus i have a very hard time to be-leave that he managed to kill Dayne by force.

I mean, a small Crannogman that was picked on by teenage squires defeating someone that GRRM himself have claimed to have been victorious against a prime Barristan the Bold if he held his sword Dawn ?

Even if Reed put 5 arrows in his back he would have killed Ned, something else stopped him!

This lead me to be-leave that Arthur Dayne was stopped from killing Ned by words.

Reed was a cunning man and both him and Ned knew that Lyanna had come there by her own will, he also understood that the Kingsguard would only be there if Lyanna had given birth to a Targaryen heir.

Thus he proposed a deal with Dayne as he was ready to strike his sword into Ned, that they would keep the child safe (Something Dayne knew he had no chance of doing himself) explaining that Ned could take him as his own bastard.

That's why i think Arthur Dayne is still alive, and will return to Jon's side when he is revealed to the realm as a Targaryen, he gave Ned his sword Dawn as a "proof" of his death and went into exile to avoid risking Jon's life.

"They" implies that more then one person found Ned at Lyannas side, but if Ned and Reed had just slain the guards i really doubt any "small folk" or wetnurses would have come looking for Ned together with Reed.

Any "small folk" present would have been hiding in fear! Reed and Dayne found Ned at Lyannas side.

The book also says that Ned an Reed where the only survivors.... but we all know that was a lie with Jon alive

Well I gotta say between this, JC being alive, and the theory that Septa Lemore=Ashara Dayne(which I don't subscribe to though I won't rule it out) there seems to be a lot of Targ supporting relics of the past coming back from the dead :shocked:. As cool and ridiculously convenient for Jon as it would be to have Arthur Dayne come back from the grave to confirm R+L=J and support Jon, I really don't think that's GRRM's style of writing.....

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Woohoo! steamy! ;)

And making pretty clear who the boss is :D

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Wasn't she forbidden to carry a sword?

The Manderlys are originally from the Reach, the name could have originated in the South and been brought North with them.

That's true, but it still doesn't explain why her hair is dyed green.

In our modern culture, people dye their hair for vanity and artistic expression, but I don't get the feeling Wylla is doing it to mimic Johnny Rotten. :) In Martins world, it appears that most people utilizing dye do so for the purpose of disguise unless they're specifically from a "culture" where dying the hair is fashion statement.

She's also from the North, a people who appear to dress very modestly, so that was the thing that really got me to wondering.

But I won't make the "hidden twin" another topic, just a moment of curiosity that I will remain quietly speculative about.

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I predict that it turns out Arthur Dayne killed himself at the Tower of Joy.

There is at least one account that Ned slew Arthur Dayne, and none that suggest that Arthur committed sepuku.

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Exactly.

AGoT, chapter 39, Eddard POV:

Unless Ned is lying to himself in his own mind :shocked: there's no doubt Arthur Dayne is dead.

Well... http://fc00.devianta...ggs-d54hu0b.jpg

Lol, yes. I've seen that one, and think it actually quite tasteful in that it leaves everything else to the imagination.

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