Jon Icefyre Posted July 1, 2013 Share Posted July 1, 2013 Lyanna is styled by Robert (and Ned doesn't contradict) as the kidnapped and raped victim of Rhaegar Targaryen. Now if Lyanna went with Rhaegar willingly, Aerys maybe would have had to answer for murdering Brandon and Lord Rickard and asking for Robert's and Ned's head, but he was the mad king anyway. Also Brandon who started all this because he thought Rhaegar had kidnapped Lyanna died for nothing, same as Lord Rickard. Basically a girlie in love triggered the fall of house Stark because of a foolish crush for an emo harp player and lyric. When she realizes this dying she asks Ned to promise to keep up the lie,Brandon never actually acknowledges that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna neither does Rickard, Brandon was a hot head so it could very well be possible that he was fueled by the fact that Rhaegar a married man with two kids ran off with his little sister willingly who was betrothed to another, therefore dishonoring his little sister's maidenhood and showing a considerable lack of respect for the honor of House Stark. It's also very likely that Robert spread that rape fabrication around the realm, and who is going to tell the king he was wrong, especially about matters related to his beloved Lyanna and Rhaegar the man he hated the most? We get info from other characters like Ser Barristan that suggest it was well known to some that Rhaegar's relationship with Lyanna was of mutual feelings.Ned also says that, "some secretes are too dangerous to be revealed".Again where's the danger? Idk could it be the fact that Ned has been pretending Lyanna and Rhaegar's child was actually his for 14 years and Robert finding out the truth would lead to Ned and his family facing the vengeful wrath of king Robert? It doesn't make sense whatsoever that Ned thought there was real danger in his secretes unless it involves that child(Jon). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Addam of Hull Posted July 1, 2013 Share Posted July 1, 2013 Lyanna is styled by Robert (and Ned doesn't contradict) as the kidnapped and raped victim of Rhaegar Targaryen. Now if Lyanna went with Rhaegar willingly, Aerys maybe would have had to answer for murdering Brandon and Lord Rickard and asking for Robert's and Ned's head, but he was the mad king anyway. Also Brandon who started all this because he thought Rhaegar had kidnapped Lyanna died for nothing, same as Lord Rickard. Basically a girlie in love triggered the fall of house Stark because of a foolish crush for an emo harp player and lyric. When she realizes this dying she asks Ned to promise to keep up the lie,That's a potential explanation, but we have to remember that GRRM has stated that the TV Series will need to cover what happened with Rhaegar and Lyanna eventually. If that's true, then the romance (or forced abduction and rape, I suppose) that happens has a much more significant part to play in the story that simply being the cause of the rebellion. More importantly, the sense of mystery and intrigue around the specifics of this relationship and the events that led up to it means that there needs to be a giant narrative pay-off that has some relevancy to what happens now. For characters and events that are often talked about in the story, we know surprisingly little of what actually happened which, incidentally, is what you're trying to poke holes with. The problem with that is that these aren't actual holes - saying that there couldn't be any servants at the TOJ, for instance, certainly does this. Martin never directly states that there were any servants there, but everything we know about highborn life suggests that there were. If Lyanna is down there the whole time - or even for any extended period of time at all - there need to be people there who know how to clean and cook and do laundry. As a highborn lady, I doubt she knew how to do those things herself and there's no reason to believe that there aren't servants there when, as we see, servants are a defacto part of high born life in Westeros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alienarea Posted July 1, 2013 Share Posted July 1, 2013 Nope. The fight took place upon Ned's arrival before he talked to Lyanna. If someone survived the fight but died soon afterwards so that Ned built the right number of cairns, he wouldn't be in the state to come looking for Ned.No, it doesn't - as I said in the other thread, a servant and a goat would do. The point here is that the book allows that a wetnurse might have been present and doesn't say explicitely that there was none. I don't need to, the scenario I offered doesn't rely on the colour of his hair.Rhaegar had three other KG with him at Trident, yet it didn't save him. If Robert challenged him to a single combat, Arthur wouldn't have been allowed to interfere, anyway.It is stated that they made it good after Lyanna's death, they didn't see each other because Ned preferred to stay in the North and Robert was engaged in the South. Keeping Lyanna's involvement secret still doesn't tax Ned in any way - no-one questions him, no-one suspects, and his silence doesn't affect a thing for anyone.I guess we disagree then. I need some sleep now, continue tomorrow. Good night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted July 1, 2013 Share Posted July 1, 2013 Brandon never actually acknowledges that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna neither does Rickard, Brandon was a hot head so it could very well be possible that he was fueled by the fact that Rhaegar a married man with two kids ran off with his sister willingly who was betrothed to another, therefore dishonoring his sister and showing considerable lack of respect for the honor of House Stark. It's also very likely that Robert spread that rape fabrication around the realm, and who is going to tell the king he wrong? We get info from other characters like Ser Barristan that suggest it was known to some that Rhaegar's relationship with Lyanna was of mutual feelings.Ned also says that, "some secretes are too dangerous to be revealed".Again where's the danger? Idk could it be the fact that Ned has been pretending Lyanna and Rhaegar's child was actually his for 14 years and Robert finding out the truth would lead to Ned and his family facing the vengeful wrath of king Robert? It doesn't make sense whatsoever that Ned there was real danger in his secretes unless it involves that child(Jon)."Some secrets are best kept hidden. Some secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust." :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Icefyre Posted July 1, 2013 Share Posted July 1, 2013 "Some secrets are best kept hidden. Some secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust." :-)Exactly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted July 1, 2013 Share Posted July 1, 2013 My two cents on R+L casting.The new, improved version of Dan Stevens LOL (gods, dude can loose weight :stunned: )http://cdn04.cdn.jus...-estelle-04.jpgHe's naturally strawberry blonde, so no problem on that account.Again from Downton Abbey (and Labyrinth...) beautiful Jessica Brown Findlay:http://i2.listal.com...wn--findlay.jpgThey both have the advantage of being Brits, being that the casting trend for all the major Targs/Stark family members up to now.They definitely work, and while we're taking the liberty of casting, I have chosen British Actor Douglas Booth to play Aegon. :DHe played " Prince Eustace" in "Pillars of the Earth," and I believe is up for the next "Romeo and Juliette" go.http://images5.fanpop.com/image/photos/31000000/Douglas-Booth-douglas-booth-31038374-320-480.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted July 1, 2013 Share Posted July 1, 2013 That's a potential explanation, but we have to remember that GRRM has stated that the TV Series will need to cover what happened with Rhaegar and Lyanna eventually. If that's true, then the romance (or forced abduction and rape, I suppose) that happens has a much more significant part to play in the story that simply being the cause of the rebellion. More importantly, the sense of mystery and intrigue around the specifics of this relationship and the events that led up to it means that there needs to be a giant narrative pay-off that has some relevancy to what happens now. For characters and events that are often talked about in the story, we know surprisingly little of what actually happened which, incidentally, is what you're trying to poke holes with. The problem with that is that these aren't actual holes - saying that there couldn't be any servants at the TOJ, for instance, certainly does this. Martin never directly states that there were any servants there, but everything we know about highborn life suggests that there were. If Lyanna is down there the whole time - or even for any extended period of time at all - there need to be people there who know how to clean and cook and do laundry. As a highborn lady, I doubt she knew how to do those things herself and there's no reason to believe that there aren't servants there when, as we see, servants are a defacto part of high born life in Westeros.Lyanna may not have had to do those things physically herself, but in those days a Highborn girl learned to run a Castle the way a CEO would run a corporation.No small undertaking.She would need to know everything from stock, to skins and fur, as well as fabric. She would also need to know everything from kitchens to linens, and certainly enough math to know if she was being cheated.In some cases the Lady of the House saw to the proper bathing of her equally highborn guests, so as the Lady of the TOJ, I'm sure she did see to those things as well as Rhaegar saw to defense and other "plans."The "Lady" was a Manager/Supervisor in every sense of the word in those days. B) But were there servants?At least a small retinue of some sort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Icefyre Posted July 1, 2013 Share Posted July 1, 2013 They definitely work, and while we're taking the liberty of casting, I have chosen British Actor Douglas Booth to play Aegon. :DHe played " Prince Eustace" in "Pillars of the Earth," and I believe is up for the next "Romeo and Juliette" go.http://images5.fanpo...374-320-480.jpgPillars of the Earth! I literally just re watched that not too long ago, I love how so many of us have seen the same stuff! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted July 1, 2013 Share Posted July 1, 2013 She is absolutely beautiful, but for some reason I can't see her as Lyanna.Well, and I think she captures some of the essence of innocence and spirit that they were saying that Olivia Hussey did in "Romeo and Julliette."http://i.ebayimg.com...NMk!~~60_35.JPGhttp://searchweight.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/odette-yustman-2.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted July 1, 2013 Share Posted July 1, 2013 Pillars of the Earth! I literally just re watched that not too long ago, I love how so many of us have seen the same stuff!I know!!!! :)I'm honored to be in such great company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Addam of Hull Posted July 1, 2013 Share Posted July 1, 2013 Lyanna may not have had to do those things physically herself, but in those days a Highborn girl learned to run a Castle the way a CEO would run a corporation.No small undertaking.She would need to know everything from stock, to skins and fur, as well as fabric. She would also need to know everything from kitchens to linens, and certainly enough math to know if she was being cheated.In some cases the Lady of the House saw to the proper bathing of her equally highborn guests, so as the Lady of the TOJ, I'm sure she did see to those things as well as Rhaegar saw to defense and other "plans."The "Lady" was a Manager/Supervisor in every sense of the word in those days. B) But were there servants?At least a small retinue of some sort.Yeah, I'm not claiming she didn't know how to run a household or anything like that! Just that highborn men and women didn't cook for themselves typically. I know what kind of duties a Lady would have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted July 1, 2013 Share Posted July 1, 2013 Yeah, I'm not claiming she didn't know how to run a household or anything like that! Just that highborn men and women didn't cook for themselves typically. I know what kind of duties a Lady would have.Didn't mean to imply you didn't, and agree that there would be servants for the actual work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis Lives Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 Interesting theories, and I agree with the main premise that a merging of Stark and Targaryen magic will be critical to the real fight against to Others, but the Starks and Targaryens are not the only ones who have magic. Maybe they are genetically predisposed to certain kinds of magic, but there are other people who can harness magic such as Melisandre, Moqorro and Thoros. It seems the magic of R'hollor can be learned, but we don't know if those priests were chosen because they has some innate magical propensity or just manifested a talent for it while they were slaves of R'hollor. We do know there are Eastern magics of the Dragons Lords of old Valyria, the Faceless Men, the Warlocks of Qarth, etc. And there is a Western magic of the Children of the Forests and First Men. We don't have all the details of the magic that fortifies the Wall except that it was a Stark that built the Wall with the possible help from Giants. Magic supposedly fortifies Storms End, although it is neither a Stark nor a Targaryen strong hold.I definitely agree that there is magic throughout however the targs and Starks are the only ones with inherent power. The dragon lords of valyrian were the targ ancestors and their founding civilization. The targs were all that survived. I think the argument for the followers of rhollar and the faceless men fall in nicely with the establishing sides. The faith of the seven are clearly against rhollar, the old gods, the faceless god etc. The high septon now has a host thanks to cersei. It is not just coincidence either that the faceless men are infiltrating the citadel. Long story short, I believe the targs, Starks, faceless men, rhollar, giants, greenseers, wargs etc to all be on the same side. Maybe not technically on the same team but their interests are aligned. The other side consists of the lannisters, tyrells, faith of the seven, the maesters, etc. everyone else is basically a pawn being played by one side or the other knowingly or unknowingly (eg stannis for rhollar, golden company for targs/blackfyres, dornish for targs, wildlings for stark etc etc. it actually appears as if varys is leading/manipulating one side and little finger is leading/manipulating the other.At the end of the day, this is all pure speculation. We don't know what we don't know. I simply believe that Jon snow IS LIGHTBRINGER and the forging was the merger of targ and stark blood. Maybe the symbolism of the lion being stabbed through the heart was a prior attempt to forge lightbringer with the lannisters. Who knows. I do think there is more to this game than the iron throne. I think the maesters and the septons have a completely different agenda to end magic and the stark and targ lines. My real question is the others. I truly wonder if they are actually the "bad guys". It seems logical to me that the others, who are clearly organized and intelligent, would side with stark and targ. Their interest, at least for now, are aligned. How is that the wildlings have survived north of the wall with the others for so long? How have the giants survived? Why is blood raven in the north with the others? Why are tcotf hiding out in the north with the others? How come wights are trying to get into the cave but there are no others? The wights seem to be mindless human eating zombies. Nothing more. Who is coldhands? Way too many ambiguous alliances based on narrative perspective. Jon didn't realize what side he was truly on until now. Neither did mel until the "defeat" of stannis. Nobody is aware of what the maesters are up to except the reader. There is more to all of this than the lannisters fighting for land and power. It is the battle for the dawn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nami Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 We get info from other characters like Ser Barristan that suggest it was well known to some that Rhaegar's relationship with Lyanna was of mutual feelings.Selmy's quotes never gave me the feeling it was mutualActually, it's one of the things we don't know for sure, if Lyanna was in love with Rhaegar or just wanted to get away from RobertWhat Barristan said is that Rhaegar lover HER, not that she loved him back. How could Selmy know what Lyanna felt anyway? He was never in contact with her. With Rhaegar I get it since Selmy was at the ToH and near him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Icefyre Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 Long story short, I believe the targs, Starks, faceless men, rhollar, giants, greenseers, wargs etc to all be on the same side.Ummmm I wouldn't say the faceless men and the Targs will be on the same side. Remember based on the info we've gotten on the history of the faceless men in the books and the current mission that Jaqen H'ghar is on, many believe/highly speculate that the faceless men played a very large role in the doom of Valyria and are currently trying to figure out ways to slay Dany's three dragons....I don't think the faceless men like the re-birth of dragons one bit, therefore I'm pretty sure they're secretly against Dany and therefore are against House Targaryen..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis Lives Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 Ummmm I wouldn't say the faceless men and the Targs will be on the same side. Remember based on the info we've gotten on the history of the faceless men in the books and the current mission that Jaqen H'ghar is on, many believe/highly speculate that the faceless men played a very large role in the doom of Valyria and are currently trying to figure out ways to slay Dany's three dragons....I don't think the faceless men like the re-birth of dragons one bit, therefore I'm pretty a\sure they're secretly against Dany and therefore are against House Targaryen.....Fair enough. Maybe they aren't on anyone's side. I wasn't making teams. I was simply talking about interests that are aligning in preparation for a battle that is far more important than the iron throne. They have been fighting over the iron throne for 300 years. What's unique is that prophecies are being fulfilled and lots of magical occurrences are happening simultaneously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 I definitely agree that there is magic throughout however the targs and Starks are the only ones with inherent power. The dragon lords of valyrian were the targ ancestors and their founding civilization. The targs were all that survived. I think the argument for the followers of rhollar and the faceless men fall in nicely with the establishing sides. The faith of the seven are clearly against rhollar, the old gods, the faceless god etc. The high septon now has a host thanks to cersei. It is not just coincidence either that the faceless men are infiltrating the citadel. Long story short, I believe the targs, Starks, faceless men, rhollar, giants, greenseers, wargs etc to all be on the same side. Maybe not technically on the same team but their interests are aligned. The other side consists of the lannisters, tyrells, faith of the seven, the maesters, etc. everyone else is basically a pawn being played by one side or the other knowingly or unknowingly (eg stannis for rhollar, golden company for targs/blackfyres, dornish for targs, wildlings for stark etc etc. it actually appears as if varys is leading/manipulating one side and little finger is leading/manipulating the other.At the end of the day, this is all pure speculation. We don't know what we don't know. I simply believe that Jon snow IS LIGHTBRINGER and the forging was the merger of targ and stark blood. Maybe the symbolism of the lion being stabbed through the heart was a prior attempt to forge lightbringer with the lannisters. Who knows. I do think there is more to this game than the iron throne. I think the maesters and the septons have a completely different agenda to end magic and the stark and targ lines. My real question is the others. I truly wonder if they are actually the "bad guys". It seems logical to me that the others, who are clearly organized and intelligent, would side with stark and targ. Their interest, at least for now, are aligned. How is that the wildlings have survived north of the wall with the others for so long? How have the giants survived? Why is blood raven in the north with the others? Why are tcotf hiding out in the north with the others? How come wights are trying to get into the cave but there are no others? The wights seem to be mindless human eating zombies. Nothing more. Who is coldhands? Way too many ambiguous alliances based on narrative perspective. Jon didn't realize what side he was truly on until now. Neither did mel until the "defeat" of stannis. Nobody is aware of what the maesters are up to except the reader. There is more to all of this than the lannisters fighting for land and power. It is the battle for the dawn.You've summed up just about every speculation I've entertained about whats going on, along with the historical implications of one world putting to an end the other, and it's very likely that BOTH the Targs. and the Starks with their dragons and wargs fade into the mists of myth.To follow up on Jon Icefyre's statement on the FM, that is true, the FM are the descendants of the slaves of the cruel dragon lords, and created their organization in opposition to them.But, I do think in terms of the relationship with their environment the magic is present certainly in both bloodlines, and I've always questioned whether the Others, despite Nans claims are "bad" or just a symptom of the imbalance in their world.The dragons are fire made flesh, but the Others are Ice made flesh, and seem to bring Winter with them, as well as the fact that Winter itself seems to be emanating from Winterfell, and the magic that wards it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis Lives Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 I simply believe that Jon snow IS LIGHTBRINGER and the forging was the merger of targ and stark blood.Lyanna even died in order to bring lightbringer (Jon) into the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis Lives Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 You've summed up just about every speculation I've entertained about whats going on, along with the historical implications of one world putting to an end the other, and it's very likely that BOTH the Targs. and the Starks with their dragons and wargs fade into the mists of myth.To follow up on Jon Icefyre's statement on the FM, that is true, the FM are the descendants of the slaves of the cruel dragon lords, and created their organization in opposition to them.But, I do think in terms of the relationship with their environment the magic is present certainly in both bloodlines, and I've always questioned whether the Others, despite Nans claims are "bad" or just a symptom of the imbalance in their world.The dragons are fire made flesh, but the Others are Ice made flesh, and seem to bring Winter with them, as well as the fact that Winter itself seems to be emanating from Winterfell, and the magic that wards it.Couldn't agree more. I wasn't aware of the history of the faceless men. Where do they discuss that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis Lives Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 Couldn't agree more. I wasn't aware of the history of the faceless men. Where do they discuss that?I realized its speculation based on the kindly mans tale of the first faceless man. My bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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