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R+L=J v.53


Stubby

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Selmy's quotes never gave me the feeling it was mutual

Actually, it's one of the things we don't know for sure, if Lyanna was in love with Rhaegar or just wanted to get away from Robert

What Barristan said is that Rhaegar lover HER, not that she loved him back. How could Selmy know what Lyanna felt anyway? He was never in contact with her. With Rhaegar I get it since Selmy was at the ToH and near him

Well of course he's not gonna flat out say Lyanna loved Rhaegar back, that would kind of give away the plot.....You have to use what we know about the way the majority of ppl in the story viewed specific characters and then read between the lines based on that, it's not easy figuring out GRRM's puzzles but he gives plenty of subtle clues. For example Ned doesn't think Rhaegar was the type to go whoring around as oppose to Robert(comparing both of Lyanna's suitors), the vast majority of ppl in the story that have talked about Rhaegar including Lannisters like Jamie all hold him in high regard, so when you hear Ser Barristian talk about how good of a guy Rhaegar was and then hear him drop a line like, "Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna, and thousands died because of it." Well gee do you honestly think Ser Barristian would view Rhaegar in the high regard that he does if he thought Rhaegar raped and kidnapped Lyanna? No, so when Ser Barristian drops that line about Rhaegar, I think the reader can safely assume Ser Barristian thought the relationship was of mutual feelings, seeing as though Ser Barristian would think Rhaegar is not the type to kidnap a lady and hold her against her will. Also noble ladies don't runaway just because they don't want to marry someone, so no one in the realm is gonna honestly think Lyanna vanished with Rhaegar just to simply get away from Robert without having any intimate feelings for Rhaegar whatsoever.

Also outside of Robert why is it we never hear anyone else in KL say Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna? Funny we hear Cersei, and Kevan Lannister talk about how Rhaegar fell for Lyanna. We hear Jamie and Tywin talk about Rhaegar and his family yet none of them ever say he kidnapped Lyanna like Robert does, why is that? Maybe it's because they know Rhaegar would never do such a thing, therefore most ppl around Robert probably weren't nearly as foolish as Robert to think Lyanna didn't want Rhaegar(the fair sliver haired prince who pretty much had every girl in Westeros drooling over him) just as much as he wanted her, but obviously no one is going to be reckless enough to tell king Robert that. Also Hoster Tully called Brandon Stark a, "Gallant fool", and was angry with a dead Brandon for getting himself killed. But I mean is it really that foolish to immediately try to rescue your little sister after you know she's been kidnapped and could possibly be raped? I don't think so, but OTOH is it foolish to threaten to kill the crown prince for running away with your sister even though you know she went with him willingly? Yes, very foolish lol.

Another thing is Ser Barristian does drop the line about how the KG kept secretes among themselves, I'm sure they discussed Rhaegar's actions at the TOH among themselves. And then once they found out Rhaegar vanished with Lyanna, it's not crazy to assume the KG that weren't with Rhaegar, along with Aerys, Rhaella, and a few members of the court knowing the type of person Rhaegar was, probably put the pieces together that Lyanna was in on the 'runaway' as well. Which could also explain(along with the madness lol) why Aerys freaked out on Brandon so hard. Kinda like, "Hey man why the hell are you threatening to kill my son? Your sister's the one that decided to go with him, and if she wants to be with my son then there's no reason for you to be up here causing a scene and threatening the royal family, but that's exactly what your doing, so now I got to teach you a lesson....." Haha but Aerys ya know, would say it in a much crazier way lol.

In fact Aerys in his own maddening/stupid way could have been trying to do his son a favor. Think about it, he knows Rhaegar is with Lyanna. So after the Brandon incident instead of calmly evaluating the situation like a normal person, he instead goes all Mad king and assumes all the Starks will react like Brandon did, so he executes Brandon/Rickard, and then calls for the head of (we don't know what Aerys wanted with Benjen)Ned and Robert (Lyanna's betrothed) therefore eliminating anyone that might have control/influence over who Lyanna is to be with lol. What he didn't plan on, was the fact that Jon Arryn would have the balls to call for a rebellion......

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I realized its speculation based on the kindly mans tale of the first faceless man. My bad.

It's all good, and here is more:

"The Guild originated in the volcanic slave mines of Valyria. Their founder came to believe that Valyria's diverse slave population all prayed to the same god of death in many different incarnations. The Guild believes that the death gods of all religions are faces of a single, Many-Faced God. In the Guild's House of Black and White, followers wear black and white robes and perform religious duties for the community, such as tending to the dead. The House contains a fountain and alcoves with idols of many death gods, including the Stranger of the Seven, but there are no formal services. Some visiting worshipers light candles to their god, then drink from the fountain using a black cup. The religious order refill the fountain with a poison, so that drinking from the fountain leads to a painless death. This is sometimes referred to as "the gift" of the Many Faced God.

A phrase associated with the cult of the Many-Faced God is valar morghulis, translated from High Valyrian as "All men must die"; the formal response to this is valar dohaeris, or "All men must serve."

According to the Guild, the god is present in many religions, all under different names. In Qohor, it is called the Black Goat. In Yi Ti, the Lion of Night and in the Faith of the Seven, the Stranger.[3] " - WIKI

There is some speculation they may have had something to do with the Doom. They also seem to want Arya for some reason, because I don't believe they have her best interests at heart either.

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There is some speculation they may have had something to do with the Doom. They also seem to want Arya for some reason, because I don't believe they have her best interests at heart either.

:agree:

When @Jon Icefyre made the comment on the previous page about the FM hating Targs, it made me think about a future Arya-Jon meeting. Not that they could "assign" her to kill her own brother/cousin, but it seems like there is dramatic opportunity there.

Clearly the FM have an ulterior motive with her. They know who she is after all. However, I am 99% confident that her many glimmers of ego, her inability to forget her "hitlist" and most of all, her secretly hiding Needle, all foreshadow the return of Arya Stark in a very dramatic way. JI's comments just make me wonder if Jon's true identity will be involved somehow.

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<snip> a foolish crush for an emo harp player and lyric <snip>

At this point it's a classic.

That's a potential explanation, but we have to remember that GRRM has stated that the TV Series will need to cover what happened with Rhaegar and Lyanna eventually. If that's true, then the romance (or forced abduction and rape, I suppose) that happens has a much more significant part to play in the story that simply being the cause of the rebellion. More importantly, the sense of mystery and intrigue around the specifics of this relationship and the events that led up to it means that there needs to be a giant narrative pay-off that has some relevancy to what happens now.

:agree: People tend to (tendentiously?) forget that we are not talking about history, news stories or real life. We are talking about a piece of well structured narrative born of an author's talent and creativity. A character well dead before the beginning of the saga doesn't get mentioned so frequently unless their shadow is way longer than what we first assumed. Unless their story arc and derivatives are not completed. Rhaegar is a blatant example of such a narrative omniscience on the part of the author. How many mentions/citations he gets throughout the 5 books? He pops up every second page, with a randomness too cleverly casual to be unplanned. People talk about him, wonder about him, dream about him, long for him, think about him, miss him, hate him, love him, curse him and bless him. Not to mention the symbolic/allegoric/metaphoric web we have so often tried to unravel in this thread. Whether we like it or not, he is the 'stone guest' of the saga. The looming omnipresent shadow the author decided to tease and intrigue us with. Obviously for a reason. A crucial reason.

They definitely work, and while we're taking the liberty of casting, I have chosen British Actor Douglas Booth to play Aegon. :D

He played " Prince Eustace" in "Pillars of the Earth," and I believe is up for the next "Romeo and Juliette" go.

http://images5.fanpo...374-320-480.jpg

Perfect.

Btw, Romeo and Juliet was filmed in a snow covered Verona, Mantua and... Rome :stunned: last year. Cast was hilariously shocked LOL

And count me in the fellowship of the (Tv shows) ring ;) Birds of a feather flock together :lol:

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I'm going to take this a step further and suggest Elia Martell only had one child. There's a couple of things about the Rhaegar's decision to woo Lyanna that don't make sense.

  1. Aegon is Rhaegar's male heir and, he believes, the prince who was promised.
  2. Elia's is unable to bear children, which is dramatically meaningless if she already gave birth a male heir of destiny.
  3. All indication suggests that Rhaegar loved Elia and that there was never any riff between them.
  4. For some reason, Rhaegar slept with Lyanna anyway.

Rhaegar might have gone after Lyanna for love, but it wouldn't make sense for him to have done it for the sake of having another child if he already sired the prince that was promised with Elia. And if he went after Lyanna purely for love, Elia's infertility is irrelevant and there's no reason for it to be in the books.

However, here's another way things could have gone done:

  1. Elia Martell only had one child: Rhaenys. She nearly died and was pronounced unable to give birth.
  2. Rhaegar became convinced he was destined to sire the Prince Who Was Promised.
  3. Elia, realizing she couldn't provide a male heir, gave Rhaegar her blessing to get a second wife. They may have agreed on a dark-haired one so that she could raise the child as her own.
  4. Lyanna gave birth to Aegon and is the woman Daenerys saw in the House of the Undying.

This is the only way for Elia's infertility to be meaningful dramatically, and also complements George R. R. Martin's interest in history, as it's how Abraham sired a male heir. It also fits a lot of the theories about Jon Snow. If he is Aegon, that means a comet that appeared in the sky during his conception and that both the dead baby and living adult Aegons are imposters.

Another thing that fits about this is that it means Lyanna died violently instead of in childbirth. There's two things that don't make sense about the obvious interpretation of the Tower of Joy:

  1. Ned's memories of Lyanna's death show her crown of flowers flying across the room, suggesting she was murdered violently.
  2. Ned's men outnumber the guards 6 to 3, but they still 4 of Ned's men died.

It's possible that Arthur Dayne was just that damn good, but the books rarely suggests any of the great swordsmen are so good that they can win when they're outnumbered. A more logical explanation would go:

  1. At least one more of Ned's men survived the battle.
  2. Lyanna explained that the baby is the Rhaegar's and the prince who was promised.
  3. The surviving man tried to kill the baby to end the line, but Lyanna died instead.
  4. Ned and Howland Reed killed that man.
  5. Lyanna realized Aegon won't be safe anywhere, and asked Ned to hide his identity so that he can fulfil his destiny.
  6. Ned renamed Aegon Jon Snow after Jon Arryn.

This theory requires a lot of A Dance With Dragons to be red herrings, but it would make a lot more dramatic sense than having one of the heads of the dragon just pop up out of nowhere in the fifth book. It also lets Jon and Tyrion be the second and third head, which is nice because the arguments for them being Targaryens make a lot of sense to me.

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I'm going to take this a step further and suggest Elia Martell only had one child. There's a couple of things about the Rhaegar's decision to woo Lyanna that don't make sense.

  1. Aegon is Rhaegar's male heir and, he believes, the prince who was promised.

  2. Elia's is unable to bear children, which is dramatically meaningless if she already gave birth a male heir of destiny.

  3. All indication suggests that Rhaegar loved Elia and that there was never any riff between them.

  4. For some reason, Rhaegar slept with Lyanna anyway.

Rhaegar might have gone after Lyanna for love, but it wouldn't make sense for him to have done it for the sake of having another child if he already sired the prince that was promised with Elia. And if he went after Lyanna purely for love, Elia's infertility is irrelevant and there's no reason for it to be in the books.

However, here's another way things could have gone done:

  1. Elia Martell only had one child: Rhaenys. She nearly died and was pronounced unable to give birth.

  2. Rhaegar became convinced he was destined to sire the Prince Who Was Promised.

  3. Elia, realizing she couldn't provide a male heir, gave Rhaegar her blessing to get a second wife. They may have agreed on a dark-haired one so that she could raise the child as her own.

  4. Lyanna gave birth to Aegon and is the woman Daenerys saw in the House of the Undying.

This is the only way for Elia's infertility to be meaningful dramatically, and also complements George R. R. Martin's interest in history, as it's how Abraham sired a male heir. It also fits a lot of the theories about Jon Snow. If he is Aegon, that means a comet that appeared in the sky during his conception and that both the dead baby and living adult Aegons are imposters.

Another thing that fits about this is that it means Lyanna died violently instead of in childbirth. There's two things that don't make sense about the obvious interpretation of the Tower of Joy:

  1. Ned's memories of Lyanna's death show her crown of flowers flying across the room, suggesting she was murdered violently.

  2. Ned's men outnumber the guards 6 to 3, but they still 4 of Ned's men died.

It's possible that Arthur Dayne was just that damn good, but the books rarely suggests any of the great swordsmen are so good that they can win when they're outnumbered. A more logical explanation would go:

  1. At least one more of Ned's men survived the battle.

  2. Lyanna explained that the baby is the Rhaegar's and the prince who was promised.

  3. The surviving man tried to kill the baby to end the line, but Lyanna died instead.

  4. Ned and Howland Reed killed that man.

  5. Lyanna realized Aegon won't be safe anywhere, and asked Ned to hide his identity so that he can fulfil his destiny.

  6. Ned renamed Aegon Jon Snow after Jon Arryn.

This theory requires a lot of A Dance With Dragons to be red herrings, but it would make a lot more dramatic sense than having one of the heads of the dragon just pop up out of nowhere in the fifth book. It also lets Jon and Tyrion be the second and third head, which is nice because the arguments for them being Targaryens make a lot of sense to me.

I think the premises for your theory that Rhaegar's "wooing" of Lyanna doesn't make sense are incorrect.

1. Aegon is Rhaegar's male heir and, he believes, the prince who was promised. Rhaegar subsequently realized that "the dragon needs three heads," i.e., he needed to father another child.

2. Elia's is unable to bear children, which is dramatically meaningless if she already gave birth a male heir of destiny. Not if, as Rhaegar came to believe, that another dragon (child) was needed. As you have pointed out, Elia couldn't birth any more children.

3. All indication suggests that Rhaegar loved Elia and that there was never any riff between them. According to Barristan, Rhaegar respected Elia, but he loved Lyanna. Regardless, even if Rhaegar loved Elia his belief that he needed to father a third child would not have stopped him from having a third child with another woman, given what we know about Rhaegar's obsession with prophesy.

Ed. grammar.

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I'm going to take this a step further and suggest Elia Martell only had one child. There's a couple of things about the Rhaegar's decision to woo Lyanna that don't make sense.

  1. Aegon is Rhaegar's male heir and, he believes, the prince who was promised.

  2. Elia's is unable to bear children, which is dramatically meaningless if she already gave birth a male heir of destiny.

  3. All indication suggests that Rhaegar loved Elia and that there was never any riff between them.

  4. For some reason, Rhaegar slept with Lyanna anyway.

Rhaegar might have gone after Lyanna for love, but it wouldn't make sense for him to have done it for the sake of having another child if he already sired the prince that was promised with Elia. And if he went after Lyanna purely for love, Elia's infertility is irrelevant and there's no reason for it to be in the books.

However, here's another way things could have gone done:

  1. Elia Martell only had one child: Rhaenys. She nearly died and was pronounced unable to give birth.

  2. Rhaegar became convinced he was destined to sire the Prince Who Was Promised.

  3. Elia, realizing she couldn't provide a male heir, gave Rhaegar her blessing to get a second wife. They may have agreed on a dark-haired one so that she could raise the child as her own.

  4. Lyanna gave birth to Aegon and is the woman Daenerys saw in the House of the Undying.

This is the only way for Elia's infertility to be meaningful dramatically, and also complements George R. R. Martin's interest in history, as it's how Abraham sired a male heir. It also fits a lot of the theories about Jon Snow. If he is Aegon, that means a comet that appeared in the sky during his conception and that both the dead baby and living adult Aegons are imposters.

Another thing that fits about this is that it means Lyanna died violently instead of in childbirth. There's two things that don't make sense about the obvious interpretation of the Tower of Joy:

  1. Ned's memories of Lyanna's death show her crown of flowers flying across the room, suggesting she was murdered violently.

  2. Ned's men outnumber the guards 6 to 3, but they still 4 of Ned's men died.

It's possible that Arthur Dayne was just that damn good, but the books rarely suggests any of the great swordsmen are so good that they can win when they're outnumbered. A more logical explanation would go:

  1. At least one more of Ned's men survived the battle.

  2. Lyanna explained that the baby is the Rhaegar's and the prince who was promised.

  3. The surviving man tried to kill the baby to end the line, but Lyanna died instead.

  4. Ned and Howland Reed killed that man.

  5. Lyanna realized Aegon won't be safe anywhere, and asked Ned to hide his identity so that he can fulfil his destiny.

  6. Ned renamed Aegon Jon Snow after Jon Arryn.

This theory requires a lot of A Dance With Dragons to be red herrings, but it would make a lot more dramatic sense than having one of the heads of the dragon just pop up out of nowhere in the fifth book. It also lets Jon and Tyrion be the second and third head, which is nice because the arguments for them being Targaryens make a lot of sense to me.

There is not enough textual evidence to really know Elia's feelings on the matter, or what if any part she played in this beyond fan speculation and extrapolation.

GRRM confirmed himself that it was Elia in the vision with Rhaegar, and that Rhaegar agreed that Aegon was a good name for a King, but then he said, at least according to the vision, that there must be another, so one might assume that he's basically telling Elia, not asking Elia.

Also there is the fact that KIng Aerys held her and her children hostage when he actually could have let them leave with Rhaella and Viserys to Dragonstone when it became evident that things were beginning to turn. After all, Aegon was the Crown Prince and the Heir after himself and Rhaegar, not Viserys so he should have had first priority of safety.

That reads to me at least, that if he had to hold her hostage, she was no longer in KL of her own free will and the fact that he sent Rhaella and Viserys elsewhere also indicates to me that Aerys was now aware that KL was no longer safe as once assumed.

Then there is the part where Dany asks point blank if Rhaegar married for love or for duty, and Selmy said that Rhaegar was fond of Elia, which Dany understood very well what "fond" meant, so the text makes it pretty clear that Rhaegar married Elia as a political alliance and for duty.

Later in Selmys thoughts, he confirmed that "Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it," which is actually the closest thing to criticism that he comes as he admired Rhaegar greatly in everything else.

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I'm going to take this a step further and suggest Elia Martell only had one child. There's a couple of things about the Rhaegar's decision to woo Lyanna that don't make sense.

1. Aegon is Rhaegar's male heir and, he believes, the prince who was promised.

2. Elia's is unable to bear children, which is dramatically meaningless if she already gave birth a male heir of destiny.

3.
All indication suggests that Rhaegar loved Elia
and that there was never any riff between them.

4. For some reason, Rhaegar slept with Lyanna anyway.

Barristan says explicitely that Rhaegar didn’t love Elia but that he was fond of her, and he also says that Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna.

Rhaegar might have gone after Lyanna for love, but it wouldn't make sense for him to have done it for the sake of having another child if he already sired the prince that was promised with Elia. And if he went after Lyanna purely for love, Elia's infertility is irrelevant and there's no reason for it to be in the books.

In the HotU vision, he emphasizes that one more child is needed to bet he third dragon head. Since we don’t know the text of the prophecy, the option that the third child was very important even though he already had his heir cannot be discarded.

However, here's another way things could have gone done:

Elia Martell only had one child: Rhaenys. She nearly died and was pronounced unable to give birth.

An official statement was made only after she gave birth to Aegon.

Elia, realizing she couldn't provide a male heir, gave Rhaegar her blessing to get a second wife. They may have agreed on a dark-haired one so that she could raise the child as her own.

She may have given her blessing, but no way would she have been able to fake a pregnancy.

Lyanna gave birth to Aegon and is the woman Daenerys saw in the House of the Undying.

The woman was confirmed by GRRM as Elia. Aegon was born in 282, Jon in 283.

This is the only way for Elia's infertility to be meaningful dramatically, and also complements George R. R. Martin's interest in history, as it's how Abraham sired a male heir. It also fits a lot of the theories about Jon Snow. If he is Aegon, that means a comet that appeared in the sky during his conception and that both the dead baby and living adult Aegons are imposters.

As I said above, the third dragon head is still in play, and there is another option: a baby swap right after the birth. There is a theory that Ashara gave birth at the same time as Elia, and Ashara’s supposedly stillborn daughter was actually Elia’s, swapped for Ashara’s boy. Rhaegar then finds out about the swap and seeks Lyanna because he doesn’t have the PTWP. – This, however, is not supported in the text.

Another thing that fits about this is that it means Lyanna died violently instead of in childbirth. There's two things that don't make sense about the obvious interpretation of the Tower of Joy:

Ned's memories of Lyanna's death show her crown of flowers flying across the room, suggesting she was murdered violently.

Sorry but this suggests none of the kind. Plus, could you provide the quote? I remember rose petals spilling, and flying across the skies, but to my best memory, the crown is not mentioned here, neither lying nor flying.

Furthermore, „bed of blood“ is a phrase multiple times and by different people used for childbirth. Together with the fever mentioned in Ned’s recollection of Lyanna’s last moments, this suggests death of post-childbirth complications, most probably childbed fever.

Ned's men outnumber the guards 6 to 3, but they still 4 of Ned's men died.

5, actually. Only Ned and Howland Reed survived.

It's possible that Arthur Dayne was just that damn good, but the books rarely suggests any of the great swordsmen are so good that they can win when they're outnumbered.

Well, he didn’t win, after all.

At least one more of Ned's men survived the battle.

Unsupported by the text; eight cairns = 5 Ned’s men + 3 KG

Ned renamed Aegon Jon Snow after Jon Arryn.

Under that scenario, Jon would have been more than a year older than Robb and there is no way this would go unnoticed.

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Selmy said Rhaegar was fond of Elia, but we don't know how Elia felt

We know she comes from a rather sexually liberal Dorne, where affairs, paramours, and the sort are commonplace. My guess is that the 'fondness' went both ways. Both Rhaegar and Elia knew it was a political marriage but cared for each other none the less (all accounts is that they were decent people). Elia can not have children after Aegon, and Rhaegar is clearly forthcoming with her about the importance of a 'third head'. With what we know of Dornish proclivities, I've felt that Elia was totally cool with Rhaegar looking elsewhere in that case...

ETA:

Which lends credence to a greater plan by Rhaegar to have 2 wives, as was tradition of Targaryen Kings of old...

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:agree:

When @Jon Icefyre made the comment on the previous page about the FM hating Targs, it made me think about a future Arya-Jon meeting. Not that they could "assign" her to kill her own brother/cousin, but it seems like there is dramatic opportunity there.

Clearly the FM have an ulterior motive with her. They know who she is after all. However, I am 99% confident that her many glimmers of ego, her inability to forget her "hitlist" and most of all, her secretly hiding Needle, all foreshadow the return of Arya Stark in a very dramatic way. JI's comments just make me wonder if Jon's true identity will be involved somehow.

Now THAT is an angle I haven't thought of- Jon.

It would seem that the direction of Arya in this arc, is that she is being groomed to at some point be used against either Dany, or Aegon, but I had not thought of Jon.

I know a lot of fans seem to think it's a "good" thing that she is with the FM, but there is something very sinister to me about a man that hides himself behind the guise of "Kindliness" without showing his true face. It makes me ask, "what's really under there?"

Which is why I then have to ask why Jaquen was "conveniently" in her location. How far does their knowledge extend, and to what end would they choose Arya?

Is there something in the history of Rhaegar and Lyanna that the FM men think they could utilize Arya for? Was there a FM in Winterfell?

Crackpot alert: Could she be used as the catalyst for destroying two dragons that might love her- Jon and Aegon, harkening back to the Bloodraven/Bittersteele conflict over Sheira Seastar?

But no, I definitely think they have their own agenda, and the best thing that could happen is that she never forgets that she is her fathers Daughter, and I don't think she ever forgets Jon.

Many have made the parallels between the journey of Dany and Jon, but there is a similar journey between Arya and Jon in that they are tested with trying to keep vows that they were never born to keep.

I say she eventually runs afoul of the House of the Black and the White though in many ways that's the way she sees her world.

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I say she eventually runs afoul of the House of the Black and the White though in many ways that's the way she sees her world.

I thought all through arya most recent chapters that she was just amusing them at the HoB&W.. What I mean is that she was doing her best to make them think she was on board, all the while, she remained herself. She has needle stashed, she constantly recites her hit list, she is always thinking about Jon in her mind. etc etc...

I really think that she will just use this training as a means to her end. Get fully trained as a Faceless (wo)Man, then haul ass back to Westeros and leave them in the dust. And hopefully that doesn't lead to them disposing of her.

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I thought all through arya most recent chapters that she was just amusing them at the HoB&W.. What I mean is that she was doing her best to make them think she was on board, all the while, she remained herself. She has needle stashed, she constantly recites her hit list, she is always thinking about Jon in her mind. etc etc...

I really think that she will just use this training as a means to her end. Get fully trained as a Faceless (wo)Man, then haul ass back to Westeros and leave them in the dust. And hopefully that doesn't lead to them disposing of her.

That's my thinking as well, but I have a feeling they will go after her. :uhoh:

And great point oh Arya playing the FM. As I said, I think once he finds out what is under that Kindly Mans face, she'll hit the road.

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That's my thinking as well, but I have a feeling they will go after her. :uhoh:

And great point oh Arya playing the FM. As I said, I think once he finds out what is under that Kindly Mans face, she'll hit the road.

When she first went into the HoB&W she saw his true face IIRC, and she tried to bite the grave worm in his eyesocket

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When she first went into the HoB&W she saw his true face IIRC, and she tried to bite the grave worm in his eyesocket

Why do you think that's his "true" face? The Faceless Men are just that. Faceless. They give up their identity so someone who is truly devout to the order probably no longer has a "true" face. They are No One.

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Why do you think that's his "true" face? The Faceless Men are just that. Faceless. They give up their identity so someone who is truly devout to the order probably no longer has a "true" face. They are No One.

Oh, I don't know... Maybe the lack of, you know, a face... ;)

From the wiki

When he first shows his face to Arya it is a yellow skull with scraps of skin hanging from it and a white worm coming out of an eye hole. After Arya kisses him and bites the worm, his face changes to that of the kindliest old man she ever saw.[1]

The description seems faceless to me lol

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Ha. Ok. So taking "Faceless" pretty literally then. Does he really need to walk around with a worm in his eye socket? Couldn't he pull it out or does it add to the "flavor"?

Sarcasm aside, I always just assumed that this was his true face because like I said above, the description completely lacks a face, but as for the worm... I''m not sure? Is it supposed to represent death or decay because he has been 'faceless' so long? I couldn't really say

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When she first went into the HoB&W she saw his true face IIRC, and she tried to bite the grave worm in his eyesocket

Woops, I suppose I should clarify. :P

No, Arya is not afraid of creepy things, (people), given that when she was little and Jon covered himself in flour to scare the rest of the Stark brood playing in the Crypts, Arya went straight up to him and pinched him.

I mean in terms of "his true face," as in his real nature, or true intentions.

His changing his face into the "Kindly Man" could perhaps indicate some internal approval of what she did when she reacted without fear and seemingly embraced him and the FM.

Arya has shown a penchant for adapting, and creating her own "pack" wherever she goes, and while she may not have flinched from his gruesome appearance, which indicates her acceptance of people, it doesn't necessarily mean she'll be onboard, or embrace his intentions, especially as "Lady Gwynhyfvar" suggested that perhaps one of her "assignments" could include killing Jon once his bloodline is known, (or maybe they already know).......

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