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R+L=J v.53


Stubby

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Now THAT is an angle I haven't thought of- Jon.

It would seem that the direction of Arya in this arc, is that she is being groomed to at some point be used against either Dany, or Aegon, but I had not thought of Jon.

I know a lot of fans seem to think it's a "good" thing that she is with the FM, but there is something very sinister to me about a man that hides himself behind the guise of "Kindliness" without showing his true face. It makes me ask, "what's really under there?"

Which is why I then have to ask why Jaquen was "conveniently" in her location. How far does their knowledge extend, and to what end would they choose Arya?

Is there something in the history of Rhaegar and Lyanna that the FM men think they could utilize Arya for? Was there a FM in Winterfell?

Crackpot alert: Could she be used as the catalyst for destroying two dragons that might love her- Jon and Aegon, harkening back to the Bloodraven/Bittersteele conflict over Sheira Seastar?

But no, I definitely think they have their own agenda, and the best thing that could happen is that she never forgets that she is her fathers Daughter, and I don't think she ever forgets Jon.

Many have made the parallels between the journey of Dany and Jon, but there is a similar journey between Arya and Jon in that they are tested with trying to keep vows that they were never born to keep.

I say she eventually runs afoul of the House of the Black and the White though in many ways that's the way she sees her world.

This aspect of Jon-Arya fits nicely with Arthur-Morgaine parallels that have come up before. The unknown/hidden sister being used against her will (or without her knowledge) to bring about the downfall of the half-brother. Just hope GRRM doesn't carry the parallel to its conclusion... :ack:

However- I definitely agree with other posters that she will ultimately "throw off" the FM and remember her true identity as Arya Stark.

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This aspect of Jon-Arya fits nicely with Arthur-Morgaine parallels that have come up before. The unknown/hidden sister being used against her will (or without her knowledge) to bring about the downfall of the half-brother. Just hope GRRM doesn't carry the parallel to its conclusion... :ack:

However- I definitely agree with other posters that she will ultimately "throw off" the FM and remember her true identity as Arya Stark.

Agreed on BOTH counts.

Arya does see the world in black and white according to Maisie Williams, and doesn't like a lot of "faffe," but only wants answers. Initially the House of the FM might seem like a good fit, but as she gets into it, I think she'll find their motives "grey" indeed.

I think the interesting thing about Arya is that while hers is "winding path," she does seem to be inevitably walking the same path as Lyannas going back to Martins themes of unending cycles, whether it be love or vengeance.

Another poster had compared her to Antigone.

I really, really hope that sentence of finding her body with Needle in her hand isn't foreshadowing. :bawl:

It could also be a foreshadowing of her not letting go of who she is as Needle is her tether to Ned, Jon and Winterfell. :wub:

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Well as far Arya's, "hit list" goes, I think the show kinda spoiled the outcome with that mini prophecy Mel gave to Arya about all the, "eyes she will close". Needless to say I fully expect Arya to scratch a few targets of her list before the series is over, I'm guessing that even if Arya isn't faking and really does want to be a FM, like Alia said the FM seem to be more villainous to me than the readers are led to believe, so I think Jon would probably be the one to bring Arya out of the 'darkness' so to speak if that's truly the case in terms of if she's faking or not. But I agree with what most of you are saying, Arya is most likely using them for her own benefit, and either way I think she'll always remain loyal to Jon, he's been her most beloved sibling since day 1....

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Well as far Arya's, "hit list" goes, I think the show kinda spoiled the outcome with that mini prophecy Mel gave to Arya about all the, "eyes she will close". Needless to say I fully expect Arya to scratch a few targets of her list before the series is over, I'm guessing that even if Arya isn't faking and really does want to be a FM, like Alia said the FM seem to be more villainous to me than the readers are led to believe, so I think Jon would probably be the one to bring Arya out of the 'darkness' so to speak if that's truly the case in terms of if she's faking or not. But I agree with what most of you are saying, Arya is most likely using them for her own benefit, and either way I think she'll always remain loyal to Jon, he's been her most beloved sibling since day 1....

Jon Targaryen, First of his name, King of the Andals and the First Men, King of the Seven Kingdoms, Protector of the Realm, Conciliator of the Wildings, and Regent of Dorne.

and his Queen,

Arya of Winterfell, Warrior-Queen, She-Wolf of Braavos, She of Many Faces, the Closer of Many eyes, the Sword of the Just, and the Ghost of the Past.

The Cycle isn't broken until Rhaegar and Lyanna live again.

:P

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If it makes you feel better, Arya is allegedly Parris Martins favorite character. :D

I always wonder if Martin actually writes for the readers or the readers write for Martin. Because of his writing style and LOOOONG delay in between books, he certainly has the ability to read all of these awesome theories and concepts and incorporate them into his next book. He can see what people expect and tact to the other side. I wonder if 90% of all of the stuff we pick up on was actually intentional or if we made it intentional by giving him the idea which he reinforces in later chapters. I know Martin always says that he feels it would be disingenuous to change story lines based on people guessing his intent but I don't think he would admit it if he did. I honestly believe what makes the story so spectacular is the reader input over many years. It has time to settle. He can see reaction. He can tinker... etc. It's very organic. With that being said, Parris preventing GRRM from killing off Arya proves my point. He can't have possibly foreseen her liking that character and now he will have something to answer for at home if he kills her.

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I always wonder if Martin actually writes for the readers or the readers write for Martin. Because of his writing style and LOOOONG delay in between books, he certainly has the ability to read all of these awesome theories and concepts and incorporate them into his next book. He can see what people expect and tact to the other side. I wonder if 90% of all of the stuff we pick up on was actually intentional or if we made it intentional by giving him the idea which he reinforces in later chapters. I know Martin always says that he feels it would be disingenuous to change story lines based on people guessing his intent but I don't think he would admit it if he did. I honestly believe what makes the story so spectacular is the reader input over many years. It has time to settle. He can see reaction. He can tinker... etc. It's very organic. With that being said, Parris preventing GRRM from killing off Arya proves my point. He can't have possibly foreseen her liking that character and now he will have something to answer for at home if he kills her.

I think if it's true that Arya is her favorite maybe it's because she feels safe enough to embrace the character, so I speculate he has no reason to change anything which he's been adamant about

not doing for any reason, or anyone. :)

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Jon Targaryen, First of his name, King of the Andals and the First Men, King of the Seven Kingdoms, Protector of the Realm, Conciliator of the Wildings, and Regent of Dorne.

and his Queen,

Arya of Winterfell, Warrior-Queen, She-Wolf of Braavos, She of Many Faces, the Closer of Many eyes, the Sword of the Just, and the Ghost of the Past.

The Cycle isn't broken until Rhaegar and Lyanna live again.

:P

Wow I love all the titles you gave Arya, that would be kinda epic if she became queen with all those titles. But you really think Jon would want to make her his queen? I mean he's always thought of her as his sister, and even once R+L=J is revealed, I still kinda see Jon viewing all his siblings in the same borther/sisterly light even though they would technically be his cousins. I've always wondered if Ned Dayne was going to somehow come back into the picture for Arya....Also Jon regent of Dorne? This sounds very interesting could you elaborate this?

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I think if it's true that Arya is her favorite maybe it's because she feels safe enough to embrace the character, so I speculate he has no reason to change anything which he's been adamant about

not doing for any reason, or anyone. :)

I've been served. :bowdown:

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Wow I love all the titles you gave Arya, that would be kinda epic if she became queen with all those titles. But you really think Jon would want to make her his queen? I mean he's always thought of her as his sister, and even once R+L=J is revealed, I still kinda see Jon viewing all his siblings in the same borther/sisterly light even though they would technically be his cousins. I've always wondered if Ned Dayne was going to somehow come back into the picture for Arya....Also Jon regent of Dorne? This sounds very interesting could you elaborate this?

Well thank you. :)

I did that a little tongue-in-cheek.

I don't necessarily think it's outside the realm of Martins possibility, but I like to think of Arya as a living symbol of Lyanna, and that Jons Mother, through Arya, never truly left him.

And since I see the naming of the Stark Direwolves as foreshadowing and she named hers, (quite controversially) for the Warrior Queen, I could see Dorne, (i.e., Edric Dayne, Trystyn Martell, Aegon if real, or gods forbid, even Gerold Dayne given the references to darkness for both DS and Arya), in her future.

But, Ned did tell her that one day she'd marry a king......

Jon as Regent of Dorne:

I picked up from you the theory that Jon embodies bloodlines from North to South in Dorne, given he has Martell blood through Rhaegar.

My reading of the sample chapter of tWoW is that I feel that this time, Dorne and the current Martells are not going to fare well in this Dance of Dragons.

Because Arianne has not shown good judgement up to now, I have a feeling in her desire to achieve her ambitions she will marry Faegon, and because she has tainted Dany with madness to justify her guilt over Quintyns death and her prior animosity towards him, I now believe that Dany is not mad just because Arianne thinks she is.

But Dany will be angry when Faegon, thus Arianne and Dorne challenge her, but if Jon then defeats Dany and were to take up that mantle of Kingship, then becoming the Regent of Dorne if all other Martells don't survive would be the natural path.

I've been served. :bowdown:

Oh, I hope that didn't sound rude, (I hate typing on my phone).

No, I just mean that perhaps Mrs. Martin knows enough about his plans for Arya, she felt free to embrace the character without anxiety.

But, Martin has said he stays away from the boards just for the reason of not wanting to be influenced,

(And for all we know, Arya being her favorite could be another urban myth). :P

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Jon as Regent of Dorne:

I picked up from you the theory that Jon embodies bloodlines from North to South in Dorne, given he has Martell blood through Rhaegar.

My reading of the sample chapter of tWoW is that I feel that this time, Dorne and the current Martells are not going to fare well in this Dance of Dragons.

Because Arianne has not shown good judgement up to now, I have a feeling in her desire to achieve her ambitions she will marry Faegon, and because she has tainted Dany with madness to justify her guilt over Quintyns death and her prior animosity towards him, I now believe that Dany is not mad just because Arianne thinks she is.

But Dany will be angry when Faegon, thus Arianne and Dorne challenge her, but if Jon then defeats Dany and were to take up that mantle of Kingship, then becoming the Regent of Dorne if all other Martells don't survive would be the natural path.

This is a very good point, I myself think Faegon could very well end up marrying Arianne, I mean they're(mainly JC) waiting on Dany in order to confirm/validate his claim as the son of Rhaegar. But Faegon seems to be over Dany and they're kinda running out of time seeing as though they're starting to get into the thick of things as far as war goes, so they really can't wait much longer for Dany. Therefore it seems logical that the next best step would be for Faegon to marry Arianne seeing as though Doran is Elia's brother, meaning a marriage with Arianne would show that Dorne acknowledges him as the son of Elia which, in itself also says he's Rhaegar's son for obvious reasons. Which then would make it more likely that the rest of the realm(at least the south) would acknowledge him as Aegon Targaryen as well. So if that happens then ya I'd say the Martells would totally be screwed, which is a shame because I love the Martells and Dorne in general. :crying:

Also how cool would it be if Jon could somehow find his way to Dorne in a location where a certain tower used to be, and take him back to "where it all started" so to speak? I know given his current whereabouts that's probably unlikely but still, one can dream.......

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Oh, I hope that didn't sound rude, (I hate typing on my phone).

No, I just mean that perhaps Mrs. Martin knows enough about his plans for Arya, she felt free to embrace the character without anxiety.

But, Martin has said he stays away from the boards just for the reason of not wanting to be influenced,

(And for all we know, Arya being her favorite could be another urban myth). :P

I only said that because I think you made a great point and I agree with you.

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This is a very good point, I myself think Faegon could very well end up marrying Arianne, I mean they're(mainly JC) waiting on Dany in order to confirm/validate his claim as the son of Rhaegar. But Faegon seems to be over Dany and they're kinda running out of time seeing as though they're starting to get into the thick of things as far as war goes, so they really can't wait much longer for Dany. Therefore it seems logical that the next best step would be for Faegon to marry Arianne seeing as though Doran is Elia's brother, meaning a marriage with Arianne would show that Dorne acknowledges him as the son of Elia which, in itself also says he's Rhaegar's son for obvious reasons. Which then would make it more likely that the rest of the realm(at least the south) would acknowledge him as Aegon Targaryen as well. So if that happens then ya I'd say the Martells would totally be screwed, which is a shame because I love the Martells and Dorne in general. :crying:

Also how cool would it be if Jon could somehow find his way to Dorne in a location where a certain tower used to be, and take him back to "where it all started" so to speak? I know given his current whereabouts that's probably unlikely but still, one can dream.......

Right, and I think that is probably not necessarily Dorans plan.

If Arianne verifies who he is, Dorne can still acknowledge Aegon as their own absent a marriage, but I think Arianne will push with her own plans and marry Faegon to try and become Queen, again defying Doran because he probably still is sitting on information she doesn't have.

I think the Dance of Dragon II is going to be complicated and very messy, leaving Jon to have to make some hard choices.

Edit:

But to expound on your theory that he goes back to where the TOJ was and where it all began, I don't think you could ask for a better presentation of coming full circle, and perhaps breaking the vicious cycle, which yes, might too include taking Arya as his wife, though I have to say, that is not my favorite scenario. :frown5:

I only said that because I think you made a great point and I agree with you.

Okay, and thanks. :D

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But, Martin has said he stays away from the boards just for the reason of not wanting to be influenced,

I haven't lurked here much over the past few years, but if this if true, it's a blessing.

I have been worried for a while that the barrage of theories here would force him to choose some really stupid ideas for the final books.

/whew

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I haven't lurked here much over the past few years, but if this if true, it's a blessing.

I have been worried for a while that the barrage of theories here would force him to choose some really stupid ideas for the final books.

/whew/

I think it would be overwhelming.

Even now sometimes I can't remember if I read something in the books, saw it on the show, or on the forums.

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Right, and I think that is probably not necessarily Dorans plan.

If Arianne verifies who he is, Dorne can still acknowledge Aegon as their own absent a marriage, but I think Arianne will push with her own plans and marry Faegon to try and become Queen, again defying Doran because he probably still is sitting on information she doesn't have.

I haven't read the Arianne sample chapter since it came out, so it's not fresh in my memory - is there something in there that indicates Doran would not want Arianne to marry fAegon, if they felt he was legit? All indications are that fAegon is done waiting on Dany, and bringing Dorne into the fold could mean significant parts of the Reach also joining to their cause. I would think Doran would want something like that to happen?

But to expound on your theory that he goes back to where the TOJ was and where it all began, I don't think you could ask for a better presentation of coming full circle, and perhaps breaking the vicious cycle, which yes, might too include taking Arya as his wife, though I have to say, that is not my favorite scenario. :frown5:

Considering the party is about to go off at the wall, I don't see Jon heading that far south anytime soon. A trip back to Winterfell is much more likely IMO, considering there might be some sort of birthright waiting for him in the crypts...

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I haven't read the Arianne sample chapter since it came out, so it's not fresh in my memory - is there something in there that indicates Doran would not want Arianne to marry fAegon, if they felt he was legit? All indications are that fAegon is done waiting on Dany, and bringing Dorne into the fold could mean significant parts of the Reach also joining to their cause. I would think Doran would want something like that to happen?

Considering the party is about to go off at the wall, I don't see Jon heading that far south anytime soon. A trip back to Winterfell is much more likely IMO, considering there might be some sort of birthright waiting for him in the crypts...

/

I agree the North and Winterfell will be his first

stop, but I could him being drawn into the South either by his own desire to bring a Northern hoard back down on the Lannisters and either clashing, or joining Aegons forces.

As for Doran, my sense is that he just wants Arianne to verify who he is for now as I'm sure Joncon has his own plans for Aegon to wait for Dany

In terms of the Reach, most of the Houses there should be natural allies of the Targaryens, especially the Tyrells who were raised up by the Targaryens, but who also don't get along with the Martells.

Also, Dornes power is overrated. They are small with a small population whose only claim is that the Targaryens didn't conquer them. While they can't be invaded, they're in no position to invade, or launch a war which is why they go under the radar as a tactic.

At this point getting the largest territory and once, the largest Kingdom, the North, is a greater prize because without getting them back into the fold, there are no Seven Kingdoms.

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/

I agree the North and Winterfell will be his first

stop, but I could him being drawn into the South either by his own desire to bring a Northern hoard back down on the Lannisters and either clashing, or joining Aegons forces.

As for Doran, my sense is that he just wants Arianne to verify who he is for now as I'm sure Joncon has his own plans for Aegon to wait for Dany

In terms of the Reach, most of the Houses there should be natural allies of the Targaryens, especially the Tyrells who were raised up by the Targaryens, but who also don't get along with the Martells.

Also, Dornes power is overrated. They are small with a small population whose only claim is that the Targaryens didn't conquer them. While they can't be invaded, they're in no position to invade, or launch a war which is why they go under the radar as a tactic.

Agreed. Dorne is heavily dependant on forming alliances if they want to get anything significant done.

At this point getting the largest territory and once, the largest Kingdom, the North, is a greater prize because without getting them back into the fold, there are no Seven Kingdoms.

A prize from fAegon's perspective? Or Dorne's? Or in general? At some point, they will all have to make common cause if they are to survive the impending conflict with the Others...

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