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R+L=J v.53


Stubby

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Agreed. Dorne is heavily dependant on forming alliances if they want to get anything significant done.

A prize from fAegon's perspective? Or Dorne's? Or in general? At some point, they will all have to make common cause if they are to survive the impending conflict with the Others...

I think getting the North back as a whole would be important to Aegon, or whoever rules South, because it reduces the risk of having a stronger, more powerful rival Kingdom on your border.

Marrying one of the Stark girls, (Arya) cough, would need to happen if it wasn't conquered through war.

I also have a pet theory that understated, "Winter is Coming," Ned was sitting on a lot of wealth.

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Well although Dorne doesn't have as many men as fabled by young king Daeron l, they still have a considerable force to be reckoned with and make a huge difference in the upcoming war. We also have to remember Dorne(along with the Vale) has the freshest army of any kingdom as they didn't participate at all in the WOTFK, so that in itself gives them even more of an edge. Now they obviously don't have enough strength to outright win a war by themselves against all the might of the Lannisters and Highgarden , but if they truly wanted to they could at the very least make things very interesting the way Robb Stark did, and if Dorne aligns themselves with a powerful ally then yes I think they have enough fire power to win, this upcoming war....In ADWD JC says that Dorne above all else in the realm is their most important and crucial ally and not just because of who Aegon is, but also because of Dorne's power:

"I will even write King Tommen, stating as much and asking for a pardon and the restoration of my lands and titles. That will give them something to chew over for a while. And whilst they dither, we will send out word secretly to likely friends in the stormlands and the Reach. And Dorne." That was the crucial step. Lesser lords might join their cause for fear of harm or hope of gain, but only the Prince of Dorne had the power to defy House Lannister and its allies. "Above all else, we must have Doran Martell."

So I'd say Dorne is the biggest prize at the moment for JC and Faegon, since the North is still recovering and winter is now here, maybe after they take the south the importance of the North will be of more concern, but for now Dorne what they want and what they think they need the most.....I also have a feeling that Dorne has the best fighters in Westeros as well.....

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I think getting the North back as a whole would be important to Aegon, or whoever rules South, because it reduces the risk of having a stronger, more powerful rival Kingdom on your border.

Marrying one of the Stark girls, (Arya) cough, would need to happen if it wasn't conquered through war.

I also have a pet theory that understated, "Winter is Coming," Ned was sitting on a lot of wealth.

Eddard the Frugal, heheh

Well although Dorne doesn't have as many men as fabled by young king Daeron l, they still have a considerable force to be reckoned with and make a huge difference in the upcoming war. We also have to remember Dorne(along with the Vale) has the freshest army of any kingdom as they didn't participate at all in the WOTFK, so that in itself gives them even more of an edge. Now they obviously don't have enough strength to outright win a war by themselves against all the might of the Lannisters and Highgarden , but if they truly wanted to they could at the very least make things very interesting the way Robb Stark did, and if Dorne aligns themselves with a powerful ally then yes I think they have enough fire power to win, this upcoming war....In ADWD JC says that Dorne above all else in the realm is their most important and crucial ally and not just because of who Aegon is, but also because of Dorne's power:

"I will even write King Tommen, stating as much and asking for a pardon and the restoration of my lands and titles. That will give them something to chew over for a while. And whilst they dither, we will send out word secretly to likely friends in the stormlands and the Reach. And Dorne." That was the crucial step. Lesser lords might join their cause for fear of harm or hope of gain, but only the Prince of Dorne had the power to defy House Lannister and its allies. "Above all else, we must have Doran Martell."

So I'd say Dorne is the biggest prize at the moment for JC and Faegon, since the North is still recovering and winter is now here, maybe after they take the south the importance of the North will be of more concern, but for now Dorne what they want and what they think they need the most.....I also have a feeling that Dorne has the best fighters in Westeros as well.....

I tend to agree with Alia; we know they were very good at defending themselves (which done right does not require numerical advantage). Outside of Dorne, the playing field becomes much more level. And something in the quote "...the power to defy House Lannister" - he doesn't say defeat them. It just sounds to me like JC can count on Dorne's thirst for revenge.

Personally, I think Dorne is of the utmost importance to JC and fAegon not because of their military power, but rather the credibility they can offer him. Lets face it, if fAegon can't get his own grandfather over to his cause, what chance does he have of winning the loyalty of the Reach or anyone else?

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Eddard the Frugal, heheh

I tend to agree with Alia; we know they were very good at defending themselves (which done right does not require numerical advantage). Outside of Dorne, the playing field becomes much more level. And something in the quote "...the power to defy House Lannister" - he doesn't say defeat them. It just sounds to me like JC can count on Dorne's thirst for revenge.

Personally, I think Dorne is of the utmost importance to JC and fAegon not because of their military power, but rather the credibility they can offer him. Lets face it, if fAegon can't get his own grandfather over to his cause, what chance does he have of winning the loyalty of the Reach or anyone else?

Doran's his uncle not grandfather, and I already said they wouldn't outright win but neither could Robb Stark with the North and the Riverlands for that matter, you pointed out the 'defy' part, well that's exactly what Robb Stark was doing, defying, in fact that's exactly what a rebellion is, defying..... So of course Dorne or any kingdom by themselves would lose a full fledged war, but Dorne aligned with another powerful ally is the biggest threat the current monarch in Westeros could possibly face right now, and that's the whole point... Also I don't exactly agree that Dorne wouldn't be a worthy opponent outside of Dorne, at the battle of the Trident Lewyn Martell and his 10,000 Dornishmen were giving Robert's left flank a considerable amount of trouble and were the only part of the royalsit army that had advantage over the rebel army in that battle until Lyn Corbray broke the Dornishmen flank by slaying an already severely injured Lewyn Martell. It's stated on SSM that the Dornishmen didn't support Rhaegar strongly, in part because of Rhaegar's treatment of Elia and also because Doran was cautious about Dorne's involvement:

There were Dornish troops with Rhaegar at the Trident, under the command of Prince Lewyn of the Kingsguard. However, the Dornishmen did not support him strongly, in part because of Rhaegar's treatment of his wife Elia and in part because of Doran Martell's innate caution. -SSM

Thus most likely meaning they didn't send the entirety of their true strength to fight at the Trident, had they sent all of their true power, then that Dornish flank may have never been broken, and then who knows how the battle could have turned out.. Look all I'm saying is there's a reason Jon Arryn sailed to Dorne with the bones of Leywin Martell in order to negotiate a peace after the rebellion, there's a reason why Tyrion was so adamant on getting Dorne's support from possibly being with Renly or Stannis, and there's a reason why Tywin Lannister was equally as adamant about not doing anything to offend Dorne after the death of Oberyn and refused to go along with Maester Pycelle's request to hold the Dornishmen that were still in KL as prisoners to sway Doran's hand..... It would be very unwise to underestimate the true strength of Dorne. JC clearly says in that quote I posted that they need Dorne for their power.

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A little request, if I may: where is that quote about polygamous Wildlings? I thought it was the chapter where Tormund's host passes through the gate but I cannot find it there (yeah, I'm having another of those polygamy-is-not-acceptable debates)

On a side note:

I've made it to episode 7 tonight and I'm beginning to feel baffled. Why the hell is Lord Tywin disemboweling a deer personally? One would think that Lannisters can afford servants to do such tasks. And why is he doing it in his tent? Have those guys in production ever seen meat in any other form than packed in a supermarket? Bowels? Blood? It's not a kind of job you would want to do inside.

And, would someone explain me why Littlefinger needs to personally train his new whores? And why does he entertain them by the story of his puppy love? I get it that the idea how jealous he is of Ned had to be driven home but, whores? Really?

What baffles me the most is why, with all this attention to stupid details, a bit more of R+L wasn't promoted. Fine, Cersei pulls her jealous act, but has there been any build-up on this in the further episodes?

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A little request, if I may: where is that quote about polygamous Wildlings? I thought it was the chapter where Tormund's host passes through the gate but I cannot find it there (yeah, I'm having another of those polygamy-is-not-acceptable debates)

On a side note:

I've made it to episode 7 tonight and I'm beginning to feel baffled. Why the hell is Lord Tywin disemboweling a deer personally? One would think that Lannisters can afford servants to do such tasks. And why is he doing it in his tent? Have those guys in production ever seen meat in any other form than packed in a supermarket? Bowels? Blood? It's not a kind of job you would want to do inside.

And, would someone explain me why Littlefinger needs to personally train his new whores? And why does he entertain them by the story of his puppy love? I get it that the idea how jealous he is of Ned had to be driven home but, whores? Really?

What baffles me the most is why, with all this attention to stupid details, a bit more of R+L wasn't promoted. Fine, Cersei pulls her jealous act, but has there been any build-up on this in the further episodes?

Exposition. But also...

1. Tywin (or House Lannister) gutting a deer (stag/Baratheon).

2. I think LF charges more for his whores than anyone else, so he has to make sure the "product" is worth its price.

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On a side note:

I've made it to episode 7 tonight and I'm beginning to feel baffled. Why the hell is Lord Tywin disemboweling a deer personally? One would think that Lannisters can afford servants to do such tasks. And why is he doing it in his tent? Have those guys in production ever seen meat in any other form than packed in a supermarket? Bowels? Blood? It's not a kind of job you would want to do inside.

And, would someone explain me why Littlefinger needs to personally train his new whores? And why does he entertain them by the story of his puppy love? I get it that the idea how jealous he is of Ned had to be driven home but, whores? Really?

What baffles me the most is why, with all this attention to stupid details, a bit more of R+L wasn't promoted. Fine, Cersei pulls her jealous act, but has there been any build-up on this in the further episodes?

  1. I think the TV series tries to initially show Tywin as an old school, rugged, do it yourself, hard nosed, tough love, type of father, also there's the whole Stag symbolism at play.
  2. Again I think the show is trying to show Littlefinger's attention to detail and how he evaluates every product(whore) he possesses and does whatever he can to milk the full potential out of them in order to ensure successful business, which in part sort of shows how he views politics as well.
  3. Yes I agree this is very annoying that they don't show more R+L=J clues and no, we haven't really seen more of it from Cersei so far.

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Exposition. But also...

1. Tywin (or House Lannister) gutting a deer (stag/Baratheon).

2. I think LF charges more for his whores than anyone else, so he has to make sure the "product" is worth its price.

1. If they let him gut a fresh kill in the woods, I would buy it, but not in this scene. Oh, and BTW, they should try to wipe their hands clean of coagulating blood - no go.

2. I have little doubt that he would have skilled people for such training and that the sole reason of this scene was to show a hot chick on chick.

Concerning the polygamy and old gods issue: I think this is another candidate for the reference guide because it keeps resurfacing quite frequently, so could we piece this together?

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And, would someone explain me why Littlefinger needs to personally train his new whores? And why does he entertain them by the story of his puppy love? I get it that the idea how jealous he is of Ned had to be driven home but, whores? Really?

[...]

I have little doubt that he would have skilled people for such training and that the sole reason of this scene was to show a hot chick on chick.

I think Neil Marshall's explanation is quite thorough:

Speaking to Empire, ‘Game of Thrones’ episode director Neil Marshall (“Blackwater“) spoke out about HBO’s tendency to push for further nudity, even during filming of already-scripted episodes. Marshall spoke about his recent directing duties, saying:

The weirdest part [of directing
Game of Thrones
] was when you have one of the exec producers leaning over your shoulder, going, ‘You can go full frontal, you know. This is television, you can do whatever you want! And do it! I urge you to do it!’ So I was like, ‘Okay, well, you’re the boss.’”

This particular exec took me to one side and said, ‘Look, I represent the pervert side of the audience, okay? Everybody else is the serious drama side, [but] I represent the perv side of the audience, and I’m saying I want full frontal nudity in this scene.’ So you go ahead and do it.
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A little request, if I may: where is that quote about polygamous Wildlings? I thought it was the chapter where Tormund's host passes through the gate but I cannot find it there (yeah, I'm having another of those polygamy-is-not-acceptable debates)

“We have Brogg, Gavin the Trader, the Great Walrus … Howd Wanderer walks alone, Tormund says, but there’s still Harle the Huntsman, Harle the Handsome, Blind Doss … Ygon Old-father commands a following, but most are his owns sons and grandsons. He has eighteen wives, half of them stolen on raids. Which of these …”

that one?

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I think Neil Marshall's explanation is quite thorough:

Speaking to Empire, ‘Game of Thrones’ episode director Neil Marshall (“Blackwater“) spoke out about HBO’s tendency to push for further nudity, even during filming of already-scripted episodes. Marshall spoke about his recent directing duties, saying:

The weirdest part [of directing
Game of Thrones
] was when you have one of the exec producers leaning over your shoulder, going, ‘You can go full frontal, you know. This is television, you can do whatever you want! And do it! I urge you to do it!’ So I was like, ‘Okay, well, you’re the boss.’”

This particular exec took me to one side and said, ‘Look, I represent the pervert side of the audience, okay? Everybody else is the serious drama side, [but] I represent the perv side of the audience, and I’m saying I want full frontal nudity in this scene.’ So you go ahead and do it.

This reminds me that I really wish that GoT had more "sides" than the pervy and drama sides. ASOIAF are such multifaceted books and it's painful to watch a character like Tormund being reduced from this hilarious, good-natured warrior to gruff warrior guy number 90341237. And some of the scenes they add in for the sake of "drama" are so cheesy, I wanna hurl. Seriously, that final scene between Jon and Ygritte was vomit-worthy in Season 3.

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“We have Brogg, Gavin the Trader, the Great Walrus … Howd Wanderer walks alone, Tormund says, but there’s still Harle the Huntsman, Harle the Handsome, Blind Doss … Ygon Old-father commands a following, but most are his owns sons and grandsons. He has eighteen wives, half of them stolen on raids. Which of these …”

that one?

That would probably be it, thank you - got a page number?

Was there any other instance? Can't really remember.

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That would probably be it, thank you - got a page number?

Was there any other instance? Can't really remember.

last Jon chapter, p.991

Nope, can't think of another concrete passage, yet I have the feeling that there was one other mentioning of a wildling having several wives, but as I can't name the occasion nor the book it was in, this might as well be me, halluscinating

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This reminds me that I really wish that GoT had more "sides" than the pervy and drama sides. ASOIAF are such multifaceted books and it's painful to watch a character like Tormund being reduced from this hilarious, good-natured warrior to gruff warrior guy number 90341237. And some of the scenes they add in for the sake of "drama" are so cheesy, I wanna hurl. Seriously, that final scene between Jon and Ygritte was vomit-worthy in Season 3.

You just had to address the character assassination of Tormund, didn't you? :bawl:

There was a little flash of him, written by GRRM. I want THAT Tormund!

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A little request, if I may: where is that quote about polygamous Wildlings? I thought it was the chapter where Tormund's host passes through the gate but I cannot find it there (yeah, I'm having another of those polygamy-is-not-acceptable debates)

On a side note:

I've made it to episode 7 tonight and I'm beginning to feel baffled. Why the hell is Lord Tywin disemboweling a deer personally? One would think that Lannisters can afford servants to do such tasks. And why is he doing it in his tent? Have those guys in production ever seen meat in any other form than packed in a supermarket? Bowels? Blood? It's not a kind of job you would want to do inside.

And, would someone explain me why Littlefinger needs to personally train his new whores? And why does he entertain them by the story of his puppy love? I get it that the idea how jealous he is of Ned had to be driven home but, whores? Really?

What baffles me the most is why, with all this attention to stupid details, a bit more of R+L wasn't promoted. Fine, Cersei pulls her jealous act, but has there been any build-up on this in the further episodes?

Just stop now and wait for the books.

I saw a few episodes of S3, but I just had my Husband to report back to me the "goings-on."

The Dragons were nice.

EDIT: It's just my preference not to watch the series, so no judgment intended.

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Ya the TV series is just more of a way for me to pass the time while I'm waiting for WOW, and god knows how long that will be....It's also interesting to see how well certain actor/actresses embody the book character's appearance and personalities, but overall I obviously would much rather read the books.

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Ya the TV series is just more of a way for me to past the time while I'm waiting for WOW, and god knows how long that will be....It's also interesting to see how well certain actor/actresses embody the book character's appearance and personalities, but overall I obviously would much rather read the books.

I can sign this.

The actor of Sandor Clegane does such an outstanding job at portraying the Hound, it's truly amazing. Just as Maester Luwin ( :crying: ) and Roderik Cassel.

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I can sign this.

The actor of Sandor Clegane does such an outstanding job at portraying the Hound, it's truly amazing. Just as Maester Luwin ( :crying: ) and Roderik Cassel.

Ya for me the show hit the hammer on the nail with casting Tyrion, Tywin, Jamie, Cat , Varys, Littlefinger, Bronn, Arya, Sansa, Lysa, Daario, Viserys, Mel, Olenna, Brienne and many other characters. That's one thing I'll say about the show, while I don't always agree with the script and most of the deviations the show creates annoy the shit out of me, they've done as well of a job with the casting as could possibly be done IMO. And who could forget Sean Bean's chilling portrayal of Ned? I mean that guy is literally Ned Stark lol.

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