A sharp lesson for Joffrey

[Tywin Manderly]

"The boy is thirteen. There is time yet." Lord Tywin paced to the window. That was unlike him; he was more upset than he wished to show. "He requires a sharp lesson."

What kind of sharp lesson do you think that Tywin Lannister had in mind for Joffrey?

[Mladen]

To teach Joffrey that he, Tywin is the one with all the power...

[Bridgeburners]

A music lesson obviously. Tywin wants to teach Joffrey what a "sharp note" is, with relation to the conventional notes.

[The Crow]

He was going to put widows wail in the iron throne so when Joff sat the sword would stab him in the rear.

[Jory Cassel]

To teach Joffrey that he, Tywin is the one with all the power...

this, I think sending Joffrey to bed in said scene already was part of the lesson, imo it does not refer to a specific action

[Tywin Manderly]

this, I think sending Joffrey to bed in said scene already was part of the lesson, imo it does not refer to a specific action

Well, I think Tywin had something more severe in mind and that he would give Joffrey a sharp lesson comparable in severity and psychological cruelty with what he did with Tyrion after he had married Tysha.

[mindchap]

Well, I think Tywin had something more severe in mind and that he would give Joffrey a sharp lesson comparable in severity and psychological cruelty with what he did with Tyrion after he had married Tysha.

That would never work though, Joff doesn't seem to love anything enough to care about losing it.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

What kind of sharp lesson do you think that Tywin Lannister had in mind for Joffrey?

I was wondered what Tywin would have thought up for Joffrey. I don't think the lesson he thought of for Tyrion was meant to be psychologically cruel. It was meant to be a clear, no-holds-barred message that Tyrion's behavior would not be tolerated. The fact that it was psychologically scarring probably never occurred to Tywin while he was plannin this lesson.

Likewise, he'd have to think of something that would touch Joffrey at his core and established Tywin's dominance once and for all. I can't imagine what that might have been but always wished we could have seen it. Then again, it would have been for naught since Joffrey was a dead man walking at that point.

[Mad Monkey]

That would never work though, Joff doesn't seem to love anything enough to care about losing it.

Pretty much, yeah. I don't think Tywin's ever had to discipline a real sociopath before. Joffrey would have considered what he did to Tyrion to be a reward. And afterward Tywin would just be staring at him in stunned silence, unable to believe that a little kid had out-evilled him.

The fact that it was psychologically scarring probably never occurred to Tywin while he was plannin this lesson.

I can believe that it wasn't his goal, but there's no way that he did that and had no idea that it might hurt Tyrion even a little bit. He'd have to be pretty dumb not to see that. (though I do agree that Tywin probably expected Tyrion to get over it fairly soon, and was probably surprised to hear that Tyrion nursed a grudge well into adulthood.)

[mrunderhill]

I was wondered what Tywin would have thought up for Joffrey. I don't think the lesson he thought of for Tyrion was meant to be psychologically cruel. It was meant to be a clear, no-holds-barred message that Tyrion's behavior would not be tolerated. The fact that it was psychologically scarring probably never occurred to Tywin while he was plannin this lesson.

I agree with this. Tywin is such a bigot, he can only be equated with an extreme racist; a member of the KKK. Hurting peasants is insignificant to him anymore than most people worry about hurting ants when they walk past. The lesson was also supposed to drive home to Tyrion just how much he was worth. All the Lannister guards were worth a silver, but Tyrion was worth over 200 times what they were.

Likewise, he'd have to think of something that would touch Joffrey at his core and established Tywin's dominance once and for all. I can't imagine what that might have been but always wished we could have seen it. Then again, it would have been for naught since Joffrey was a dead man walking at that point.

I do wonder what it would have been, though you would think that despite Robert's bad influence, Joffrey would be more aware than most that a king was not all powerful. His uncle Jaime killed the king and his 'father' Robert rose up in rebellion to overthrow the same king.

[mrunderhill]

That would never work though, Joff doesn't seem to love anything enough to care about losing it.

Joffrey seems to love his parents and especially his mother. There are quite a few hints that he is very close to her. Despite Cersei's thoughts, there also seems to be hints that he actually listens to her readily.

[Bluesnow]

That would never work though, Joff doesn't seem to love anything enough to care about losing it.

He loved... his crossbow o____o

Maybe the crossbow Tyrion uses to kill Tywin was secretly Joffrey's cool crossbow, and Tywin had taken it away to punish him xD?

[Mad Monkey]

Joffrey seems to love his parents and especially his mother. There are quite a few hints that he is very close to her. Despite Cersei's thoughts, there also seems to be hints that he actually listens to her readily.

But could Tywin really hurt Cersei or Jaime to punish Joff?

[Kittykatknits]

What kind of sharp lesson do you think that Tywin Lannister had in mind for Joffrey?

Well, Tysha was Tyrion's sharp lesson so I'd say that gives us a clue on how for Tywin would go.

As to Joffrey, Cersei's comment to Sansa at one point likely point to what a sharp lesson looks like. Joff could never forgive Sansa for the events at the Trident and that was part of the motivation in his treatment of her. Joffrey also has a strong need to be thought of as powerful, remember his line about a strong king acts boldly? Tyrin's big need is to be loved while Joffrey's is to be seen as strong and powerful. I'd guess Tywin's sharp lesson would have something to do with this.

[Dany Girl]

I was wondered what Tywin would have thought up for Joffrey. I don't think the lesson he thought of for Tyrion was meant to be psychologically cruel. It was meant to be a clear, no-holds-barred message that Tyrion's behavior would not be tolerated. The fact that it was psychologically scarring probably never occurred to Tywin while he was plannin this lesson.

Likewise, he'd have to think of something that would touch Joffrey at his core and established Tywin's dominance once and for all. I can't imagine what that might have been but always wished we could have seen it. Then again, it would have been for naught since Joffrey was a dead man walking at that point.

the real question is how would that sharp lesson have effected the long run. Once Joffery was able to rule without a regent would he have tried to get even? He's a total psychopath, and holds grudges. I think once he was old enough he would have returned the lesson.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

As to Joffrey, Cersei's comment to Sansa at one point likely point to what a sharp lesson looks like. Joff could never forgive Sansa for the events at the Trident and that was part of the motivation in his treatment of her. Joffrey also has a strong need to be thought of as powerful, remember his line about a strong king acts boldly?

Nice suggestion, Kittykatknits. A lesson involving humiliating Joffrey in a somewhat public way. That would go a long way in making it hard for Joffrey to regain the upper hand as well as get Tywin's position of power across. My only concern is Joffrey goes sadistically crazy after he is humiliated at the Trident. Tywin would need Joffrey to believe he could humiliate him again and again for him to be safe from Joffrey's wrath.

That would have been really great to read.

[Kittykatknits]

Nice suggestion, Kittykatknits. A lesson involving humiliating Joffrey in a somewhat public way. That would go a long way in making it hard for Joffrey to regain the upper hand as well as get Tywin's position of power across. My only concern is Joffrey goes sadistically crazy after he is humiliated at the Trident. Tywin would need Joffrey to believe he could humiliate him again and again for him to be safe from Joffrey's wrath.

That would have been really great to read.

Lannister family dynamics are a great read, horrifying in many ways but great.

Yes, a public humiliation I would think but not in such a way as to weaken Joffrey's public image or to slight the family image as that happens to be Tywin's biggest motivator.

[jarl the climber]

It just seems like Tywin would have had big problems on his hands if He and Joff both had survived and actually had to forge out some sort of relationship. Jon Arryn was close to revealing his true parentage to before he was killed, Ned denounced Joff, Joff despised Tyrion, so his relations with Hands was always poor whether as a Prince or as King. Its actually hard to see this not ending in one or the other being dead.

[mrunderhill]

But could Tywin really hurt Cersei or Jaime to punish Joff?

I meant Robert. Joffrey does not seem particularly fond of Jaime. No I don't see Tywin hurting Cersei let alone Jaime to teach Joffrey a lesson, but I could see him having the boy punished in other ways. Maybe a real beating or being locked a way for some time.

[Light a wight tonight]

I started chuckling madly at the OP. Obviously a sharp lesson taught by Ilyn Payne. Joff's too tall for his age, Shorten him by a head.