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Lady Nym – Not A Valonqar Thread (Possible Arianne Spoilers)


Slayer of Lies

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The door is wide open for Nym to not be in the TBC, despite what I propose in the OP as an interesting possibility to consider. But I have a hard time picturing Nym and Cersei getting along on any level, for any real amount of time. However it comes about, I can see Nym attempting to kill UnGregor (inside or outside the ring), and that backfiring badly. What I can’t see her doing, though, is simply biding her time with Ser Bob roaming the halls of the Red Keep.

They wouldn’t be getting along. Cersei would think she plays Nym like a fiddle (while it’s of course the other way around). Cersei will see Nym as an ally or more plausible as a pawn to weaken the big bad Tyrells.

Also, Nym will restrain herself since the big prize consists of the lives of Cersei, Myrcella and Tommen. Ungregor is far from the golden ticket. On top of that as I stated earlier they’ll probably be busy trying to understand the Ungregor mystery.

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All sound reasoning. I just thinking the HS has shown a propensity for outsmarting Cersei, and I imagine that he will have something (or someone) better up his sleeve than Lancel, otherwise he’s basically throwing a forfeit card IMO, which doesn’t seem like his game plan to me.

1) HS is a fanatic, not a politician, he’ll probably think that Lancel will have the Seven on his side.

2) Have we ever seen Ungregor fight? As a reader we know that he’ll be a beast, but in universe it’s not unreasonable to think otherwise. Remember the Kingsguards reputation has suffered greatly the past few years and Ser Robert Strong is a completely unknown knight. Also, he got his white cloak on Cersei’s order. The last knight she named to the Kingsguard was Ser Osmund Kettleblack, not a real paragon of knightly virtues and warrior prowess . So, she doesn’t seem to know how to pick a great fighter.

And about the HS outsmarting Cersei. I don’t think it’s as easy as that. Their relationship to me had much of the LF/Varys – Tywin dynamics. LF/Varys didn’t simply outsmart Tywin, they just played an entirely different game. And the same is true with HS/Cersei. Cersei though that the HS would simply be content with a little more power and material wealth, she didn’t realize that the man is actually interested in determining the politics of the Realm in sake of the Seven.

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Tyene aligning with the FM was part of the OP. It’s speculative as to where it goes from there, I think, as there isn’t a ton of textual evidence to go on yet. And while you might not believe that a potential “side benefit” of befriending the HS could be to initiate Nym to the Poor Fellows for the purpose of the TBC, fair enough, but I think we have equally absent evidence that they’ll have an impact on Margaery’s trial either.

The Warriors sons and the Poor Fellows have a very “once you go black you never go back” vibe to them. I don’t think Lady Nim could become a part of them just for the trial and after that casually walk out. And again, Nym is to valuable. If she were to lose her life Dorne loses her council seat (until they can send someone else to take up the seat).

Of course my proposed route of action, try an impact Margaery’s trial, is also absent evidence but it’s just more logical. People in these books play the Game of Thrones. Plotting, espionage, subterfuge it’s all inherent to the game. And that’s what my prediction hinges on, the playing of the game.

Another additional element is that the Dornish chose to send Lady Nim to the capital. If the proposed route of action would be to barge around and loudly proclaim your hostile feelings (which is the equivalent of taking a stance on the side of the HS in TBC) than they would have send Obara.

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I do think we agree on the waterfall of chaos that ultimately ends in Faegon’s (temporary) ascent, though.

Yep, we do.

And the purpose of this thread to begin with was to speculate as to how Tyene’s alignment with the FM and Nym’s ascent to her council seat will play out, so all ideas are fair game as far as I’m concerned! Further, I think – if the SS do have a hand in Marg’s trial – that’s certainly one way to initiate chaos without exposing their intentions directly to the Tyrells.

Of course, I agree with you. We’re all entitled to have our ideas, but in a thread like this the point is to present those ideas to the rest of us, at which point we can dissect it and point out potential weaknesses and strengths. And, if we’re very lucky we come up with a prediction that has few holes and weaknesses and that is plausible.

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1) HS is a fanatic, not a politician, he’ll probably think that Lancel will have the Seven on his side.

The HS seems a very grounded man to me - a simple man of humble origins. He is firm in his faith, not blind - not fanatic enough, at any rate, to believe that all it takes is the Seven to make Lancel win the fight.

The HS is a political figure, a politician, whatever his background is. And as such, he worked with Ser Kevan on resolving the mess Cersei created. Agreeing to keep Tommen's paternity out of the trial against Cersei is not the act of a fanatic - it is the act of a man who realizes that destroying Tommen's hold on the throne would only result in more chaos, more suffering among the common folk.

But did the HS actually intend his champion to win?

He may have been indifferent to the outcome, leaving it to the Seven. Or he might have agreed to let Cersei win, to stabilize Tommen's rule. Ser Kevan told Mace Tyrell plainly that there was not going to be further punishment for Cersei. After her trial, she would go to Casterly Rock. Did he discuss it with the HS, too, agreeing on the Walk of Shame in exchange for letting Cersei win the trial?

Of course, Ser Kevan is dead now and the deals he struck died with him.

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They'll probably sent her to KL with the Sand Snakes. Remember that she isn't a hostage, the Martells and the Lannisters are supposed to be "allies".

At the moment they are "allies."The situation could easily become volatile though. Who knows if it will happen, but its not far fetched at all.

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He may have been indifferent to the outcome, leaving it to the Seven. Or he might have agreed to let Cersei win, to stabilize Tommen's rule.

These are two interesting points I hadn’t really considered…

On the one hand, the HS has proven entirely adversarial to Cersei, at least in the sense that her sins could not go unpunished in his eyes or else he wouldn’t be fulfilling the onus of his title. So instead of taking it easy on Cersei, or instead of being intentionally antagonistic, he could simply be doing what he believes to be right by putting her through the TBC.

If this is the case, then he may be indifferent to the outcome… But if he’s indifferent to the outcome, why isn’t he equally indifferent on the points that Cersei must be punished via compulsory imprisonment, reluctant confession, a walk of shame, and a trial? Only to be just? Or might this series of punishments be intentionally derisive, beyond simple impartiality? Why is he putting her through so much when he also has the power to simply absolve her of her crimes?

Contrarily, Cersei is the one who aided the HS in reenacting the Faith Militant, so it might be feasible that he would intentionally forfeit the TBC to keep her in power, as you suggest. But then, why have the TBC at all? And again, why put through Cersei through hell and back if he’s on her side?

The HS’s actions cause me to personally return to the position of finding it unlikely that he would throw the TBC by choosing an unworthy adversary. In effect, if he selects Lancel, I will wonder why he put Cersei through hell and back only to be indifferent about the outcome of the TBC, or to intentionally forfeit. I certainly don’t buy that the HS believes Lancel could defeat Ser Robert Strong, and I hardly expect SRS to be a poor fighter.

Additionally, on some level, I believe the HS’s piety – and possibly his pride – precedes him, or he likely would have retained the million-dragon debt that the Lannisters owed the Faith instead of wiping that debt clean for an army. He seems to have believed that letting go of Margaery was the right thing to do based on the evidence, where he felt compelled to indict Cersei based on Osney’s confessions.

On that front as well, why put Cersei through the ringer if the eventual plan was to forfeit the TBC? Wouldn't that fly in the face of both his piety and his pride?

Conversely, someone else that meets the criteria of being a Warrior’s Son – but who we know painfully little about – is Theodan the True. If the HS believes Theodan to be a better fighter than Lancel, for example, perhaps he goes that route instead.

But that does nothing to pull any heartstrings or “fulfill” the arcs of Cersei or Gregor, such as one of the Sand Snakes, Sandor, Jaime or Lancel would, as the typical examples.

Yet, while I’d seen Lancel, Jaime and Sandor suggested as potential TBC participants all over the forums elsewhere, I hadn’t seen anyone put forth Nym, so I thought I’d float that notion as well.

To that end, she may not be the favorite or obvious choice for some for the TBC, but there’s plenty of foreshadowing in place regardless suggesting that an eventual Sand Snake Vs. Ser Robert Strong confrontation is unavoidable on some level. And – outside of taking a seat on the council – there's not a ton of text to go on suggestive of Nym’s potential alternative purposes at court. Lacking that, I'm currently inclined to connect Nym to SRS somehow, though there are a great many ways for that rivalry to play out.

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I don't see the HS as political. He is a humble septon with "black horny feet" meaning he is of low birth and has walked from small village to small village just like Septon Maribald. His whipping of Kettleback leads me to believe that he is a true believer unlike his predecessors who were vain men who were gluttons and into the pleasures of the flesh. His firm belief that the faith has the right to try both Margery and to force the TBC on Cersei again lead me to believe that he is a truebelieve/faith of the seven fundamentalist

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  • 1 month later...

Ser kevan is dead, the last of Cersi's protection. If the Tyrells are smart they won't make the Sand snakes enemies. Remember Kevan didn't tell the council that Nym or Marcella is on there way. Once Nym gets to Kings landing I would leave the girl on the ship and here what is being said about the docks or what is being said in the streets in Kingslanding. Then once she finds out about Cersi and Kevan, I would send the girl back down to either dorne or storm's end. From there I would start working on the council members. I would feel out each and see where there loyalities really lie. Tarly has wed his son to a trident lords daughter. That speaks to me that Tarly is either thinking about expanding his territories or that he's looking to gather more men and lands underhim with Tyrell's blessing because Maidenpool isn't that far and he could have been building ships streghting the walls and battlements it would make a nice fall back position if he needs. Also Maidenpool can be the port that Aegon uses to sweep around Kinglanding and then force a march to the gates. Where if Nym and Tyene do there jobs right will be wide open and him and Marcella can be married in the sept of baelor. Now Tyene can be speaking in the High Septon's ear and say that the sins of Kingslanding is a result of the Targs being destroyed. But one drangon remains, he has come home to deal the realm fire and blood, to set the wrongs of the past to right and he is the rightful heir to the throne. There are already sparrows and prophets that believe they are being punished by the gods. This way Aegon has an army ready to raise their swords for him. With an army inside and outside and council/faith behind him he can stroll in Kinglanding, sit his ass on the Iron Throne, behead Tommen as usuper of his and wife(Marcella's) throne. Pardon Margrety and Mace to stay Highgarden from raising it's banners but keep them on hand as hostages. Then there is Cersi to contend with, she will be put out of her misery by Tyrell, who serves her the same cup that she served Ned Stark. Bend the knee, stripped of power and guards(who are hunting Jamie to take him to the wall for his crime of Kingslaying)and placed under house arrest. The sand snakes need not even get their pretty little hands dirty. Aegon will bring greyscales to Kingslanding that is already suffering because the bloody flux is there and the city is starved. Here comes Petyr and Sansa with food that Petyr is hoarding for just this occasion. The dragon has three heads and Sansa has such a pretty little head. Why not marry her also, she comes with claims to the North, Trident and well the Vale, through distant decent from the Arryans. Think about it the North and Vale have gone to war against each other. They will probably have sealed the peace with marriage. So the blood of arryan also flow through the blood of the starks.

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Sorry but there is absolutely no way a sandsnake will be chosen to defend the faith in tbc. The faith, which seems to me to draw comparisons to medieval time catholic church, would be more interested in "keeping women in place" than allowing them equality to men.

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The HS's actions cause me to personally return to the position of finding it unlikely that he would throw the TBC by choosing an unworthy adversary. In effect, if he selects Lancel, I will wonder why he put Cersei through hell and back only to be indifferent about the outcome of the TBC, or to intentionally forfeit. I certainly don't buy that the HS believes Lancel could defeat Ser Robert Strong, and I hardly expect SRS to be a poor fighter.

Reading through the thread, that has puzzled me. Lancel has never been the sort of fellow you'd choose as a champion, much less so after his conversion/nervous breakdown. I'm wondering if there's any reason I've missed because people seem so sure.

Regarding the OP, which was very interesting, my own feeling is that Nymeria and Tyene will be disciplined enough to let the trial take place. After all, Ungregor could be beaten, and that sort of saves them a job. I do think revenge is the goal and I also think Doran's in on it. I do believe the theory that Oberyn poisoned Tywin and Tyrion simply finished him off, so I can't help thinking that the last time a viper entered kings landing, we ended up two Lannisters lighter, with Tywin dying and Tyrion scurrying off. If Cersei makes it through the trial, she's next in my opinion, but Nym will try and do it in a way that doesn't point to Dorne.

I don't think Tyene can be expected to exert much influence on the High Septon by the time of the trial, so I don't anticipate a Sand Snake champion. I think she's there to either forge an alliance with Dorne or simply keep an eye on the High Septon who is becoming a powerful man.

With Ungregor, the Snakes are going to know something's up. If Oberyn wounds something they die in agony. I would expect them to be sensible enough to do some research first. I know they seem impatient to exact revenge, but they still waited until Doran said it was OK for them to go, so they're not completely wild.

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People are so sure about Lancel being the Faith’s champion because

1) The HS does not have anyone better. Lancel had the best training money can buy, he’s a proven veteran and a dedicated soldier. There is no one better in the Faith Militant.

2) On top of being the best the Faith Militant has to offer Lancel also played a part in Cersei’s crimes. The HS might be a politician, but he’s first and foremost a fanatic. The idea of poetic justice, i.e. Lancel purging his soul from evil by defeating the evil queen who led him to ruins will certainly appeal to the HS.

3) Lancel is a Lannister. It would be a powerful signal if one Lannister kills another. A victory by Lancel would send a powerful signal to the rest of the Realm that the Faith of the Seven is a faction that is not to be taken lightly since it can even take the strongest family in the realm, a family notorious for their cruelty and for sticking together, and turn them against each other.

4) Not based on anything in the books. But try and think about it from a writers point of view. And ask yourself:

a) Do you really think that Cersei is supposed to lose that fight?

B) If you agree that Cersei has to win, what would make for the most interesting read? Ungregor killing some random Faith Militant knight?

Or Ungregor killing Lancel, a young man who is trying to make amends for his sins, a decent guy who’s grieving over the loss of his beloved father?

I mean you have to admit that Lancel fighting against Ungregor (and losing) would be so GRRM.

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We don't actually no for a fact the High Septon does not have anyone better, and the best training money can buy don't necessarily translate to the best soldier.

I agree it would be poetic, and I'd love to see Lancel beat Gregor if that's the way GRRM goes.

Thing is I don't think Cersei really gives a crap about Lancel, he was just a Jaime substitute and she treated him horribly. Also she was kind of spurned by him when he turned to the faith and with Cersei she twists slights into hatred very quickly. She'd be glad he was dead.

I just feel like the poster above, and think the High Septon has a surprise up his sleeve and a champion we don't know about. He might even fight himself. That would be awesome also.

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We don't actually no for a fact the High Septon does not have anyone better, and the best training money can buy don't necessarily translate to the best soldier.

Actually, we kind of know. Besides Lancel only Theodan the True (completely unknown) is mentioned as a knight of the Seven. And the commentary we get on Lancel decision to join the Faith Militant basically means “what a bunch of sad losers he’s joining”. The Faith Militant does not have great knights or Champions in its ranks. At best it has capable knights like Lancel or Ser Theodan.

and the best training money can buy don't necessarily translate to the best soldier.

Of course not but it does help. Just look at Jon thrashing the other NW recruits or at Ser Glendon Ball success in the joust in tMK. Training is essential.

I agree it would be poetic, and I'd love to see Lancel beat Gregor if that's the way GRRM goes.

Wait you actually think that Cersei is going to lose her trial?

Thing is I don't think Cersei really gives a crap about Lancel, he was just a Jaime substitute and she treated him horribly. Also she was kind of spurned by him when he turned to the faith and with Cersei she twists slights into hatred very quickly. She'd be glad he was dead.

Cersei would not care but we (the readers) would care. Lancel is a good guy. A guy who stands up for his mistakes and wants to make amends and he’d fight the very woman who led him astray. And Ungregor will crush him. And I mean really crush him. This will not be like Bronn against Ser Vardys, in fact it’s not even going to be like Oberyn vs. the Mountain because Oberyn at least had a chance. Ungregor will take Lancel apart limb by limb and he’ll be helpless to stop him. Classic GRRM.

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No mate, I don't know what's going to happen in the trial. Nor do you. Not that your theory isn't interesting.

You say the best training money can buy is essential, but I'd back Bronn or Khal Drogo against Jon Snow anyway.

Bronn is overated and Khal Drogo is a joke. Bronn might take out the Snow but Khal Drogo would fall like all Dothraki do when fighting against plate.

And although we can't know for sure we can say what is most likely based on what we know of the story. We know that Cersei dies because of the Valonqar. And none of the main candidates for Valonqar (Jaime, Sandor, Arya and Tyrion) is anywhere near KL. And even if they were none of them is able to fight off Ungregor.

Another clue is that both Tommen and Myrcella are still alive as of now (we know they die first). They could of course die between the start of tWoW and the TBC but that is unlikely to put it mildly. So, if either one of them is still alive at the start of the TBC we know that Cersei will survive.

Now, Ungregor will conquer (it makes sense to show what he's really capable off before a more definitive fight from a writers point of view) and crush her opponent. We can say that that opponent will most likely be Lancel because by making Lancel the opponent GRRM puts closure on the arc of a fairly important secondary character and is able to make the fight dramitically more interesting (random knight number one would be silly).

There is also the fact that the Faith does not have better fighters. We know from all the comments that the Faiths knights are capable but not outstanding. They don't have top tier or even second tier fighters in their ranks. So, Lancel is amongst the best they have.

On top of that the HS has political and personal motives to send Lancel into the fray (see previous posts).

So, can we say for sure that Lancel will fight the TBC and lose? No, but we can say that it is the most likely.

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First off I have to agree with I s**t gold, think about everyone's discription of Lancel after the battle on blackwater. White dry hair, so thin that Jamie could see his skull under the skin. Tyrion descripted him at the Joff's wedding as looking like he had one foot in the grave and one out. Only he couldn't decide wether he was going to live or die. I also agree, when talking to Cersi the HS almost made it seem she was over stepping her place because she was a woman and as he is the god's mouth here on earth he stands higher than the king. Lastly Tyene is not going to be a champion. No way. She is there as a spy hidden in plain sight. This way Dorne has eyes and hears in Storm's End, Sept of Baelor, Citadel and on the Concil and all of them are hidden in plain sight. The iron throne was going to send a raven asking the dornish to investigate and destroy this pretend dragon. It was Tyrell's and Tarly's suggestion. So it would be only natural that dorne send a rep to storm's end to either begin a battle or to negotioate terms. We know that Lady Nam is going to be on the council, and that Tyene should being trying to be one of the women taken into Cersi's holy team of septa's after the TBC. Also if she really looks as pure as she says she can also start a whisper campainon with in the sparrows,warrior's sons and also within the church. There knights of the faith are like the knights of templar. The lived to serve the church. They were the church's first line of defense but they also led crusades. So if Tyene does a good job of doing a smear job of Margrety, Tommen and Cersi, why wouldn't the faith look to Aegon to be this pargon of faith and gallanty, to heal the wounds of the past. And unlike Cersi's brood he isn't born of incest. His parents weren't related. So he isn't an abmoniation in the eyes of man and the gods.

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