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[Book spoilers]: GoT producers expect 8 seasons


Werthead

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Can people please stop speculating that Arya's Braavos arc will be in season 4? the Hound & Arya arc has hardly begun and they could fill the entire season with just her storyline. It is one of the best in the books. Suggesting it be truncated is a huge disservice to book readers and to the Sandor Clegane character.

What exactly is left of the Hound and Arya arc? All they have to do following the Red Wedding is a bit of travelling, the fight at the Inn, and then Arya leaves. There is no way they can drag that over a whole season.

It would make more sense to end the season with each of the Stark children with their mentors - Bran meeting Bloodraven, Arya arriving at the House of Black and White, and Sansa with Littlefinger. Why create unnecessary Arya/Hound interaction and delay Arya's arrival at the House of Black and White when there is already too much material for season five?

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@ protar

Yeah, sorry for the "dickhead" comment, as well. I went and edited it out. It's early, and I've had nothing but irritable patients all night, so their temperament seems to have rubbed off on me.

But now that this discussion is happening, I'm finding it pretty interesting, because there are so many possible outcomes as it concerns Cersei's trial by combat. As far as streamlining things goes, perhaps having Lancel as Cersei's champion, and Loras as Margaery's could be a real possibility. Both are established characters, and since it seems unlikely that Loras will be sent to Dragonstone to break the siege of the iron born, or that Lancel will marry a Frey and subsequently find his faith, it would (sort of) make sense...

If nothing else, casting news should begin to give us an idea of how this coming season will play out, and that - by extension - should give us an idea of how they are planning on handling the two latest books.

EDIT:

Of course, they would need to remove the stipulation that the corresponding champions for Cersei and Margaery be members of the Kingsguard, if they were to go that route.

...the more I think about it, the more I realize just how difficult paring down AFfC & ADwD is going to be. Though I disagree with the idea that the major players in Dorne & the Iron Islands are going to be cut. I think part of the reason that we'll see many of these supporting and/or minor characters die earlier than they did in the books is because of these new additions. Obviously neither of these locations will feature the same amount of characters (or sub-plots) as there were in the books, but I don't think you can properly tell the story of A Song of Ice & Fire if you cut these locations (and the major players within) out of the narrative entirely. The fact that they're casting both Oberyn and Ellaria tells me that we'll likely be seeing Doran, Arianne, and Quentyn, though I doubt any of the Sand Snakes will make the cut.

Personally, I'm more worried about Euron & Victarion. I know they aren't the most popular characters, but I'm a big fan of that story line with those characters, and I'd hate to see it cut entirely. Argh! So many questions.

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But now that this discussion is happening, I'm finding it pretty interesting, because there are so many possible outcomes as it concerns Cersei's trial by combat. As far as streamlining things goes, perhaps having Lancel as Cersei's champion, and Loras as Margaery's could be a real possibility. Both are established characters, and since it seems unlikely that Loras will be sent to Dragonstone to break the siege of the iron born, or that Lancel will marry a Frey and subsequently find his faith, it would (sort of) make sense...

Switch those characters around - Lancel fighting on behalf of Margaery/The Faith and Loras fighting for Cersei (having no choice as a sworn Kingsguard). That way you keep the same power dynamics (UnGregor would undoubtedly wipe the floor with whoever he faces, just as Loras would wipe the floor with Lancel in the fight). Plus you get the added irony of a Lannister fighting for a Tyrell against a Tyrell fighting for a Lannister.

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@ protar

Yeah, sorry for the "dickhead" comment, as well. I went and edited it out. It's early, and I've had nothing but irritable patients all night, so their temperament seems to have rubbed off on me.

But now that this discussion is happening, I'm finding it pretty interesting, because there are so many possible outcomes as it concerns Cersei's trial by combat. As far as streamlining things goes, perhaps having Lancel as Cersei's champion, and Loras as Margaery's could be a real possibility. Both are established characters, and since it seems unlikely that Loras will be sent to Dragonstone to break the siege of the iron born, or that Lancel will marry a Frey and subsequently find his faith, it would (sort of) make sense...

If nothing else, casting news should begin to give us an idea of how this coming season will play out, and that - by extension - should give us an idea of how they are planning on handling the two latest books.

Apology accepted :)

In any case, I think it actually will be Lancel fighting Ungregor in the trial (in the books I mean). It seems like Cersei will win, which means Gregor's opponent must die. And so I find it unlikely that Sandor will be bought back just to die again. I think a Gregor/Sandor confrontation will come later.

Having Lancel as Cersei's champion instead of fighting against her is a possibility, but again - does that really save any screen time over having Ungregor? It seems like it would take up no more time to just have Robert Strong. The only real argument I can see against Robert Strong is that the more fantasy elements don't seem to go down massively well with the mainstream audiences. However they have already introduced the concept of resurrection so I don't agree with those who make that point either.

And..eureka moment here: We have Qyburn already. His only major addition to the plot is Ungregor so I see that as a point in Robert Strong's favour.

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Switch those characters around - Lancel fighting on behalf of Margaery/The Faith and Loras fighting for Cersei (having no choice as a sworn Kingsguard). That way you keep the same power dynamics (UnGregor would undoubtedly wipe the floor with whoever he faces, just as Loras would wipe the floor with Lancel in the fight). Plus you get the added irony of a Lannister fighting for a Tyrell against a Tyrell fighting for a Lannister.

Even better! But then - and, again, speaking theoretically - what purpose would Qyburn serve, in terms of the narrative? Would he simply serve as a henchman (for lack of a better term) for Cersei? His position on the small council, as a replacement for Varys, doesn't exactly give him much of anything to do, necessarily. In any case, some interesting ideas in this thread. I agree that Rorge, Biter, and one of the known Night's Watch brothers (Grenn, Pyp, or Edd) aren't likely to make it out of the next season alive, so it's a definite possibility that they could be (some of) the characters Weiss was referring to.

EDIT:

@ protar

Yeah, I started to think about that while responding to YouSnowNothing, and realized that that is Qyburn's primary contribution to the plot, so it would seem to be a major indication that we'll see Robert Strong. I'm a little hazy on the prophesy itself, but from what I can remember, it's basically a sure thing that Cersei will win the duel (if it actually happens), so... Who the heck knows! And it's pretty much definite that Lancel will be the champion of the Faith, right? Regardless, I hope Sandor stays on the Quiet Isle and leaves the rest of this craziness to sort itself out. Maybe I should go back and re-read the last two books...

Anyone know of a good combined reading order for AFfC & ADwD? I'd like to give one a shot, but I'm not sure which is the best, in terms of keeping the chronology (roughly) in order, while also keeping in mind that it should work dramatically.

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Even better! But then - and, again, speaking theoretically - what purpose would Qyburn serve, in terms of the narrative? Would he simply serve as a henchman (for lack of a better term) for Cersei? His position on the small council, as a replacement for Varys, doesn't exactly give him much of anything to do, necessarily.

Oh, I certainly think that UnGregor will be in the show. As said, Qyburn is a bit of a loose end otherwise - the only advantage he really brings to Cersei's weaponry is his crazy necromancy, I don't see what else he can offer otherwise. But if for whatever reason UnGregor is out, then Loras would be a shrewd choice to replace him. I do think that Lancel will be the Faith's champion in the books.

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I was using that reading order for my re-read but thought it still read like two separate books, because for the most part a lot of the chapters aren't integrated so you're reading a chain of AFfC chapters followed by a chain of ADwD chapters.

True, though the main reason I personally would want a combined reading is so I don't have to go back to the beginning after reading AFFC which messes up my brain's chronology. It always feels like Dany has been ruling Meereen, and Jon has been LC for months when it's been a couple of weeks. So that order solves that.

There was another one I tried using but it was very preoccupied with preserving the exact chronology of events, rather than the more thematic order that Martin uses, with the result that you'd have like 3 chapters of one character in a row and then not see them for a hundred pages.

Here it is: https://docs.google....4/edit?hl=en_US

And apparently the owner didn't like it either because it's in his trash :P

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For all we know, GRRM was initially planning to just let the Hound die at the end of ASOS because his purpose in the narrative was done, but then decided that it may be more satisfying for his character arc to survive and give up violence completely, essentially becoming a monk. There are some pretty strong implications in the 'Quiet Isle'-episode that the Hound really IS dead: as in, Sandor Clegane may have survived, but his life of battle is over. I personally believe this also implies that Sandor has given up on vengeance against Gregor and embraced a different way of life. While Gregor Clegane was undoubtedly re-animated by Qyburn and this may still be in the show (they might not have included Qyburn if this wasn't the case), that doesn't automatically imply that Sandor is going to be fighting him. In fact, such typical tropes of rivalries and vendettas that neatly get wrapped up by the end of the story seems like the kind of cliché that Martin wants to avoid: as such, Sandor choosing not to fight Gregor (who arguably isn't Gregor at all anymore) and just quietly disappearing from the narrative seems like a far more powerful way of handling his fate to me.

Taking that into consideration, the Hound truly dying next season doesn't seem unreasonable to me. As others have said, it would certainly further enhance the aura of death that seems to surround Arya, tying into Melisandre's words to her in Season 3.

The character of Sandor is a hugely interesting one yet he should not be squeezed to a maximum until he has lost all substance. i found this ending of his story arc, finding peace on the Quiet Isle, very satisfying. I wished they could transfer it into the series. But from a logical aspect - yes, Sandor could die, his story has come to an end and may be closed in a more or less poetic manner.

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What exactly is left of the Hound and Arya arc? All they have to do following the Red Wedding is a bit of travelling, the fight at the Inn, and then Arya leaves. There is no way they can drag that over a whole season.

They also were staying in some village for a couple of months. Also, Arya needs to spend more time with the Hound and then erase his name from her prayer...That's a pity - we barely have met Sandor, the actor finally got some lines only to be killed off in next season.

I really would prefer seeing Arya/Hound additional storyline than - for example - Dany/Daario soap-opera :crying:

I'm happy Sandor survied the 3 season though, I was really anxious that they may kill him off after RW.

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The character of Sandor is a hugely interesting one yet he should not be squeezed to a maximum until he has lost all substance. i found this ending of his story arc, finding peace on the Quiet Isle, very satisfying. I wished they could transfer it into the series. But from a logical aspect - yes, Sandor could die, his story has come to an end and may be closed in a more or less poetic manner.

I don't find QI satysfying end for his character. Let's not forget he needs to clear his name - even after his "death" his "Hound" persona is used against him.

He have to do something epic IMHO. I would find more satysfing if Sandor dies as a warrior, fighting for a greater good.

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So, if season 4's dvd hits and we still don't have a release date for TWOW...then, it's time to start panicking. Until then, 8 seasons gives Martin time.

If you're right then February 14th 2015 is when we need to have a release date for TWOW or else we will have arrived at the symbolic windmill of no return (those who've watched Back to the Future will get what I mean) and will have to decide whether or not to continue watching the show and into spoiler territory.

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Am I the only one that thinks Robert Strong is ill fit for TV and will be seen as very cheesy by the general audience?

Why? It's not like the undead are a new thing in this show.

As much as I hate it, I think Sandor may well die in the show. However I think we may be overlooking another candidate: Jorah. After Daenerys banishes him, it's not like he has much relevance...

You did read ADWD right? I'd say Jorah is still important, I mean how else is Tyrion to get to Meereen. Sure, you could contrive another reason but why would that be any better than Jorah taking him?

I've said it before and I'll say it again, when it comes to major characters if the story could work with them dead, they probably would be dead in the books. Killing off big characters before there time doesn't streamline anything, it just creates more work for D+D.

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Am I the only one that thinks Robert Strong is ill fit for TV and will be seen as very cheesy by the general audience?

He's very cheesy for book readers and ill fit for the general book audience, so yes it will be even worse on TV. Hopefully they skip it depending on what actually happens to Cersei in the novels. I'm not even sure why George decided to let that storyline end on a cliff hanger.

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Am I the only one that thinks Robert Strong is ill fit for TV and will be seen as very cheesy by the general audience?

Not just you. I find FrankenGregor a bit cheesy in general. Also, even if FrankenGregor versus FoundReligionSandor turns out to be a thing that actually happens in the books--and I personally have my doubts about that--it might be one of those things that just won't play well on TV (much like a direct book/TV Rainbow Guard would have come across as silly, for a number of reasons). So we'll see.

I don't find QI satysfying end for his character. Let's not forget he needs to clear his name - even after his "death" his "Hound" persona is used against him.

So? One of the sad things in this series is that characters die or disappear into obscurity without their names ever being cleared.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, when it comes to major characters if the story could work with them dead, they probably would be dead in the books. Killing off big characters before there time doesn't streamline anything, it just creates more work for D+D.

I don't agree. GRRM likes to bench a character for a book--even several books--and then bring them back in a big way. What's easier from a book/TV perspective, killing off that character when they're "benched" and writing around their future plots when they arise, or coming up with new story to keep the actor busy until the character is important again (or telling the actor to come back in two, three or four years, which may or may not work)? D&D had to build a whole non-book arc--Theon's arc in Season 3--because of this problem. We also see the writers coming up with non-book plots and scenes to give their current cast something to do while they're waiting around to be relevant again: the Loras/Sansa engagement (gives Finn Jones something to do), the Gendry/Edric mashup (keeps Joe Dempsie around), etc. etc. It's way, way easier to kill off the character and write around it later than to try to squeeze the character in to give something to do in the interim. They can't and likely won't pull a Theon every time a character gets benched.

So even if, as you claim, the Hound is going to do something important post-ADWD and his reappearance as the gravedigger is something other than a nice bookend for readers--and there's a good argument that Sandor Clegane's part in the story is done--D&D might still kill him off and write around him, because it is a heck of a lot easier than doing what they did with Theon in Season 3.

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Why? It's not like the undead are a new thing in this show.

You did read ADWD right? I'd say Jorah is still important, I mean how else is Tyrion to get to Meereen. Sure, you could contrive another reason but why would that be any better than Jorah taking him?

I've said it before and I'll say it again, when it comes to major characters if the story could work with them dead, they probably would be dead in the books. Killing off big characters before there time doesn't streamline anything, it just creates more work for D+D.

Tyrion is smart and resourceful enough. The writers can find a way if they need to. And even if Jorah was his only way to get to Mereen, after that he doesn't have much to (really) do. He's a character without a clear motivation, which IMO puts him in danger (for a tv show).

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