If L+R does = J, who will drop the bomb?

[bobbybuilderton]

What could happen is Arya finds out Bran is still alive somehow, perhaps through him seeing her in Braavos through a weirwood. He communicates with her and she decides she is angry she couldn't help Sansa, couldn't help Ned couldn't help Robb, so she says she will not leave another brother to die. She leaves to go find him, as she is on her way, Bran learns of r+l=j from the Reeds/trees, tells her when she gets there, and she searches for proof that people will accept. Hunts down Howland Reed.

[The Idiots Lantern]

Why has this conversation gone on for six pages? The answer is so obvious. It HAS to be Howland Reed.

He's the last living person who was there at the Tower of Joy. He's quite deliberately hidden in his floating castle ever since. He's being saved for a pivotal moment, mark my words.

[Joe Pine]

Why has this conversation gone on for six pages? The answer is so obvious. It HAS to be Howland Reed.

He's the last living person who was there at the Tower of Joy. He's quite deliberately hidden in his floating castle ever since. He's being saved for a pivotal moment, mark my words.

Then everyone assembled says 'who is that guy talking about Jon being a secret Targaryen?'

For Reed to be the guy dropping the bomb, some other character has to say ' ah Howland Reed, where have you been?'

[The Idiots Lantern]

Then everyone assembled says 'who is that guy talking about Jon being a secret Targaryen?'

No one will be assembled. Howland's been much too cautious for that. Everyone else who was there is now dead, so he knows this knowledge is very, very dangerous. I'm pretty sure he'll only appear when it's time to tell the RIGHT people, and no one else.

I do not believe Jon's lineage will ever be public knowledge, so to speak. Especially if he's actually dead for now.

[Joe Pine]

No one will be assembled. Howland's been much too cautious for that. Everyone else who was there is now dead, so he knows this knowledge is very, very dangerous. I'm pretty sure he'll only appear when it's time to tell the RIGHT people, and no one else.

I do not believe Jon's lineage will ever be public knowledge, so to speak. Especially if he's actually dead for now.

Which makes R+L=J pointless as a plot.

Which is a pity as the battle of Winterfell will see the northern lords pretty much all in the same place, ideal for a reveal.

[The Idiots Lantern]

Which makes R+L=J pointless as a plot.

Why do you say that? What do you think the "point" of it should be?

Which is a pity as the battle of Winterfell will see the northern lords pretty much all in the same place, ideal for a reveal.

Why? What do you think the Lords would do with this knowledge?

[bobbybuilderton]

It also doesn't HAVE to be anyone. Grrm could decide he wants to kill the guy before he can tell anyone. And there's always the issue of people saying that the word of a Stark ally is not enough proof. Daenerys certainly won't accept that if she is ever queen. After all that she's been through, she won't be okay with someone claiming they have a better claim, with only one man's word to back it up. That's going to be true for anyone, if Jon is ever crowned. Why even bother with the reveal (which he had said will happen, I believe) if nothing comes of it? They will see it as a convenient thing for someone to claim, when they stand to gain from it if it's true.

[The Idiots Lantern]

Jon will never be crowned. He'd never survive in Kings Landing. The South is fatal for Starks...with one exception.

If GRRM were to pull a Sansa, kill Ghost and cut off Jon's spiritual connection to the North, then, THEN, Jon might stand a chance.

But a wolf can't wear a crown, and a resurrected corpse leaking R'hyllor's light from his still-gaping wounds can't sit on the Iron Throne.

[Joe Pine]

Why do you say that? What do you think the "point" of it should be?

It raises him from a bastard to high-born at a stroke.

He becomes Ned Stark's nephew and the cousin of the heir of Winterfell (be that Bran or Rickon) possibly the best person to rule the north in their minority with the threat of the others or from Aegon/young Griff's war in the south.

That's without getting really into the 'he's the third dragon stuff'

Why? What do you think the Lords would do with this knowledge?

Unify the north? Expel Stannis and his troops south of the neck? Serve justice on Roose and Ramsey? Go after the Freys and restore Riverrun to the Blackfish.

Take your pick, certainly wouldn't be as dull as you're suggesting.

[The Idiots Lantern]

It raises him from a bastard to high-born at a stroke.

He's still a bastard. Once upon a time, Targaryans could marry whoever they wanted. But the Faith objected, and to pacify them, they made the practice illegal.

So being Rheagar's bastard, as opposed to Neds, won't help improve his birth much. If anything the degree-of-separation between him and the still-beloved memory of the Warden of the North will hurt him with the Stark bannermen. Well..what's left of them, anyway.

He becomes Ned Stark's nephew

As opposed to his son? This is not an improvement.

and the cousin of the heir of Winterfell

As opposed to the brother of the heir of Winterfell? This is not an improvement.

(be that Bran or Rickon) possibly the best person to rule the north in their minority

If he's alive, then he's still sworn to the Night's Watch, and he's already turned down wardenship of Winterfell.

with the threat of the others or from Aegon/young Griff's war in the south.

The Others are coming from the North. This will be the bigger danger.

That's without getting really into the 'he's the third dragon stuff'

I predict the "third dragon" is where RLJ is going to actually MATTER THE MOST. Because this part alone does not rely on politics. Or...anything really. He can be a wolf and still a dragon. He can be a corpse and still be a dragon.

Unify the north?

At the expense of Rickon? What Northerner would choose Rheagar's son over Ned Stark's?

Expel Stannis and his troops south of the neck?

This would be a bad idea. They'll need Stannis to help fight the Others.

Serve justice on Roose and Ramsey?

They're going to do that anyway, that's kinda what the whole Battle for Winterfell is for...

Go after the Freys and restore Riverrun to the Blackfish.

A good thing to do, to be sure, but I don't see why "John Starkgaryan" would be the impetus for this.

Take your pick, certainly wouldn't be as dull as you're suggesting.

No, but you act like declaring Jon's parantage with a bullhorn would fix every single problem that faces the North. This is quite clearly not the case. Being Rheagar's son makes him a dragon, but that's all. He still has to fight for survival, like everyone else with Winter coming.

[Joe Pine]

@the idiots lantern.

Well argued, I won't go back point by point, but ask where does the knowledge of Jon's parentage lead if there isn't that sort of reveal?

Is it a giant dead end or being saved for the Dany and her dragons stuff?

Or doesn't it matter as he's stuck in a big dog.

[Pikachu101]

Then everyone assembled says 'who is that guy talking about Jon being a secret Targaryen?'

For Reed to be the guy dropping the bomb, some other character has to say ' ah Howland Reed, where have you been?'

I'm sorry but why do you think Howland will go around telling people?

As long as Jon believes him (highly doubt it) it doesn't matter if no one else knows. Ned was trying to protect Jon, why would Howland go against his wishes?

[MidnightAurora]

Actually the KG at the ToJ prove Jon's a legitimate son of R+L as they wouldn't stay behind to protect a bastard when Viserys and Rhaella are on Dragonstone.

That has been killing me since book one and I keep re-reading the passage and we know the 3 Kingsguard at TOJ were very loyal and friends to Rhaegar, but why protect/guard Lyanna when Elia is in King's Landing needing protection as well as Viserys and his pregnant mother. Lyanna must have been very important to have 3 Kingsguard "protecting her" and the 3 best of them nonetheless. What I do not get is that Lyanna yelled something out the window before they started the battle, but the Kingsguard knew Eddard was her brother so why attack and fight at all? Also why place her in a tower on Dorne where Elia Martell is from? Would the Martells know she was there?

[Joe Pine]

I'm sorry but why do you think Howland will go around telling people?

As long as Jon believes him (highly doubt it) it doesn't matter if no one else knows. Ned was trying to protect Jon, why would Howland go against his wishes?

I'm sorry but why do you think this remains the best kept secret? Does Jon warg into ghost after his stabbing at the wall and be a sort of king that could have been?

At some point secrets are revealed. What are you saying. Who drops the bomb on RLJ? No-one?

And what purpose does Howland Reed serve? Does he just stay hidden?

[The Idiots Lantern]

@the idiots lantern.

Well argued, I won't go back point by point, but ask where does the knowledge of Jon's parentage lead if there isn't that sort of reveal?

I think it will be revealed, but probably in a way nobody expects and the fallout will be different then we think.

Is it a giant dead end or being saved for the Dany and her dragons stuff?

GRRM has all but said it'd be revealed before the end, so if I were a gambler, I'd say the safest money is on it mattering most when Dany brings her dragons to the Wall. After all, Rheagal IS named for Jon's father...

Basically I think it will be a very, very late-stage reveal. Late enough that it matters more in terms of how humanity ends up fighting the Others, as opposed to who ends up swearing loyalty to whom...

Or doesn't it matter as he's stuck in a big dog.

He can still matter as a dog. It's just his political future that'd take a hit...

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

@booknerd2 I was always under the impression Wylla was made up, you know how Beric's like "all Daynes are liars" or summat…

How will her and Jon meet btw? She's in Dorne and he's on the Wall

erm, if Wylla is imaginary then how is Jon alive? how come Cat met her when she arrived at Winterfell from Riverrun? and ditto Edric Dayne how is he alive, no wet nurse no baby. Someone nursed him.. Wet nurses do indeed seem to become much loved and trusted members of the household, see Old Nan for example. kept on way way way past her lactating years and adored by generations of Starks even though she never nursed them.

I'm betting Wylla is happily telling stories to children of the Dayne household of how she once loved a great northern lord and bore him a son. After all if your going to tell a lie additional information which corroborates your lie is very helpful. We already know she told Edric he was Jon's milk brother and she his mother.

I think the list of people in the know is this:

Howland Reed :a given

Wylla :she nursed Jon and traveled to Winterfell with him, before returning to Starfall once he was weaned.Ned quite plausably had to be honest with her about where this baby came from. maybe she was at the TOJ anyway we don't know what killed Lyanna and she may have been unable to feed Jon herself from the off, if say she was hemorrhaging very heavily after the birth.

Darkstar: was the right age to be a squire during the rebellion he could have been present at the TOJ prior to Rheagar marching to the Trident and been fully aware of her pregnancy. Ned may never been aware that other people had been in on the TOJ such as servents, Squires, A midwife/Measter. etc.

[Joe Pine]

I think it will be revealed, but probably in a way nobody expects and the fallout will be different then we think.

GRRM has all but said it'd be revealed before the end, so if I were a gambler, I'd say the safest money is on it mattering most when Dany brings her dragons to the Wall. After all, Rheagal IS named for Jon's father...

Basically I think it will be a very, very late-stage reveal. Late enough that it matters more in terms of how humanity ends up fighting the Others, as opposed to who ends up swearing loyalty to whom...

He can still matter as a dog. It's just his political future that'd take a hit...

Interesting. I guess we need to know if Jon dies at the wall or not before we can see if it develops that way.

[MidnightAurora]

Benjen Stark also wanted Jon to experience life before joining the Watch. Even though it cost Eddard a lot he did the best thing for Jon by hiding his true heritage from the world by naming him a bastard because who would search for an heir through a bastard and no one would think twice of things. There is something about Jon because Eddard did not discuss Jon's mom and told her to dropped the subject because if they discussed it further he might have dropped the bombshell on Catelyn as he can not lie easily and better to not discuss it than to force to lie and he even had the servants shut up about the gossip. Also a part of Eddard was unsure of Catelyn because as he is in sat in his cell he was thinking of something and he shuttered at a thought and did not want to find out what Catelyn would do. I will have to find the direct passage in book 1 for the full reference.

[Ygrain]

He's still a bastard. Once upon a time, Targaryans could marry whoever they wanted. But the Faith objected, and to pacify them, they made the practice illegal.

That is UNTRUE. The Faith objected, and instigated an uprising, because of INCEST. In case you wondered who won, remember who Rhaegar's parents were.

In the books, you have multiple occasions when incest is shown as unacceptable for the general population, yet the Targs were getting away with it. You don't get a single instance of polygamy bashing, yet you keep claiming that it is somehow less acceptable than incest.

That has been killing me since book one and I keep re-reading the passage and we know the 3 Kingsguard at TOJ were very loyal and friends to Rhaegar

Actually, we know this only about 2 of them, Dayne and Whent, who were with Rhaegar since the beginning. Hightower arrives only later, at Aerys' order to find Rhaegar and persuade him to lead the loyalist armies, and frlom what we know about Hightower, he seems a stickler for his vows and loyal to Aerys.

but why protect/guard Lyanna when Elia is in King's Landing needing protection as well as Viserys and his pregnant mother. Lyanna must have been very important to have 3 Kingsguard "protecting her" and the 3 best of them nonetheless.

KL was protected by its walls and Goldcloaks, and the royal family were in a safe fortress, with men-at-arms and knights of the royal household. Lyanna was in an old watchtower in the middle of nowhere, at the mercy of any vagabond who might happen to come by. She also needed to remain hidden, both frlom the rebels as well as from Aerys, therefore the men guarding her had to be absolutely reliable.

What I do not get is that Lyanna yelled something out the window before they started the battle, but the Kingsguard knew Eddard was her brother so why attack and fight at all?

We do not know if Lyanna really yelled frlom the window, it seems that the voice belonged to Vayon Poole who was trying to wake Ned,

And, Ned is a rebel lord, second-in-command to the whole rebellion and the best pal of the guy who condoned the murder of Rhaegar's children. They cannot be sure whether he would agree to keep Jon secret from Robert, and even if he did, he definitely wouldn't support Jon's claim.

Also why place her in a tower on Dorne where Elia Martell is from? Would the Martells know she was there?

The tower is on the borders of Dorne, in one of the mountain passes through which Dorne is accessible. There doesn't seem to be much traffic between Dorne and the rest of Westeros through the passes and the watchtower was abandoned when Dorne lost its independence.

[MidnightAurora]

@ Idiots Lantern

Jon would have support of the Northmen as he is still a Stark if he is Lyanna's son. The Northmen particularly the small folk love the Starks and would rally behind a Stark over anyone else. I do not think it will be much cause if Rhaegar is his father. The importance would come with him being a dragon and a wolf and able to connect between the two and command both wolf and dragon. All the Northmen would rally behind the Starks are true whether it be Rickon, Bran, Jon etc.. What Jon would bring if he is indeed Rhaegar's son is that all those who supported Rhaegar not his father would possibly get behind Jon to expel the Others, Lannisters etc..