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AegonSnow

Valyrian Swords and Valyrian Blood

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1. The Valyrian Steel sword Brightroar, HEIRLOOM OF THE LANNISTER FAMILY, is in the Doom of Valyria.

Why would (if the Lann the Clever was a Andal or First Men Family) have an ancient Valyrian Steel sword that was lost before Aegon the Conqueror?

I think that it's because we'll probably find out more about the Valyrian root of the Lannister family.

Another one is ICE, from the Stark family. How exactly did they acquire the sword? Maybe some Targaryen ancestor?

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Might Ice have been a consolation prize for the Starks when they bent the knee?

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To clarify, Brightroar wasn't lost during The Doom of Valyria, it was lost when a past King of the Rock tried sail to Valyria and never came back. Prior to The Doom Valyrian swords were really expensive, but not as rare as they have been since. If a rich house like the Lannisters had lost their Valyrian sword before the Doom they probably could have purchased a new one.

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"Valyrian steel blades were scarce and costly, yet thousands remained in the world, perhaps two hundred in the Seven Kingdoms alone."

Quoted from Tyrion, Storm of Swords. If that's the case 400 years after the Doom, one can wonder that the situation prior to it had many more swords available in the market.

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"Valyrian steel blades were scarce and costly, yet thousands remained in the world, perhaps two hundred in the Seven Kingdoms alone."

Quoted from Tyrion, Storm of Swords. If that's the case 400 years after the Doom, one can wonder that the situation prior to it had many more swords available in the market.

The number of 200 in the seven kingdoms surprises me. I mean we know of what, six of them? (counting Ice and not Widows Wail or Oathkeeper.) Nine if you count ones that have been lost. I know the books suggest that Tywin has been looking to buy one for a while but no one would part with theirs. Are there even 200 noble houses?

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The number of 200 in the seven kingdoms surprises me. I mean we know of what, six of them? (counting Ice and not Widows Wail or Oathkeeper.) Nine if you count ones that have been lost. I know the books suggest that Tywin has been looking to buy one for a while but no one would part with theirs. Are there even 200 noble houses?

A quick count from the wiki gives us 372 known houses at the start of the series by my count - including the only recently extinct ones. I would guess that there could be as many as 500 houses though. Dorne for example seems pretty thin on the ground with houses, and the wiki doesn't list a lot of minor Lannister cadet branches like the Lannys and Lantells.

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Valyrians probably made alot of money on selling their swords to barbarian foreigners. Since the Valyrian swords were the best ones out on the market they could charge a lot of sweet dough off the buyers.

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A quick count from the wiki gives us 372 known houses at the start of the series by my count - including the only recently extinct ones. I would guess that there could be as many as 500 houses though.

Still, I'd agree with RumHam here. 200 swords seems a lot of swords given the number we've seen until now and specially given the fact that Tywin Lannister is said to have tried all his life to obtain one unsuccessfully. If third or four-tier houses own such blades, how is that the richest man in the seven kingdoms can't purchase it? How is that in his long service as Hand couldn't seize one? How is that he hasn't married a nephew or even Tyrion to a house owning one?

And if that's weird with House Lannister, is still weirder with the royal line. How can it be that after the Targs lost Blackfyre, no one wanted to earn favor with the crown giving away their swords. Surely there's something worthy the king can give in return. And after Robert won the throne, why couldn't he confiscate the sword of any minor Targaryen supporter?

It's something I'd like the world book shed some light on.

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Maybe 200 is an overestimation, maybe there are 150 or even 100. But still seem to be quite a lot, enough for smaller houses like the Celtigars and even Littlefinger owning some. How come the Lannisters never got one after Brightroar disappeared is a mystery, though perhaps it just wasn't that big a deal. Tyrion makes it seem like it was a humiliation for his father not to have a valyrian blade in the family, but maybe Tywin just didn't care enough to look thoroughly for one.

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There are axes and daggers also; maybe even spearheads, halberds and so on as well. I'd say all of these variants are included in the figure given by Tyrion, but status weapons like the knightly long sword or greatsword are only a relatively small number.

The nobility could be very touchy about selling a valuable and prestigious heirloom that had been part of the family for generations. A second tier house like the Tarlys would hang on to a sword knowing that it elevated them somewhat in terms of prestige above houses of similar rank and power. Possibly best not to judge these people by modern standards; medieval nobility prized heritage and standing even more than gold in many cases.

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I believe R'hollor's Red Wings and Dire Rabbit to have hit the nail on the head.

When it is suggested that Joffrey was the person who hired the cats-paw to kill Bran in his bed it is hinted that King Robert alone would have been gifted many blades such as valyrian daggers. When you include smaller bladed weapons like daggers that could easily change hands without much notice then the estimate of 200 does not seem that high.

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I still dislike the mathematics. 200 blades in whole Westeros means something like 28 on average per kingdom. Including Westerlands. No doubt there were differences... but still. If Tywin had no objections to seizing a heirloom from Stark, why did neither Reynes (the richest Westerlands bannermen) nor Tarbecks have an ancestral Valyrian sword Tywin could have seized?

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I still dislike the mathematics. 200 blades in whole Westeros means something like 28 on average per kingdom. Including Westerlands. No doubt there were differences... but still. If Tywin had no objections to seizing a heirloom from Stark, why did neither Reynes (the richest Westerlands bannermen) nor Tarbecks have an ancestral Valyrian sword Tywin could have seized?

It must be that the overwhelming majority are daggers or knives or the like. Perhaps only 20 or so true Valyrian steel "swords".

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It must be that the overwhelming majority are daggers or knives or the like. Perhaps only 20 or so true Valyrian steel "swords".

Longclaw of Mormonts is a longsword. And Mormonts were notoriously poor compared to the Reach standard that Lynesse Hightower expected.

If Mormonts could afford a Valyrian longsword, it is odd that Reynes could not.

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Longclaw of Mormonts is a longsword. And Mormonts were notoriously poor compared to the Reach standard that Lynesse Hightower expected.

If Mormonts could afford a Valyrian longsword, it is odd that Reynes could not.

Maybe the Mormonts won the sword in battle (they do have a famous warrior culture) or maybe The Starks gave them Longclaw, or the steel to make it when the Starks won bear island

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If Mormonts could afford a Valyrian longsword, it is odd that Reynes could not.

It is a widely accepted theory that House Drumm's sword "Red Rain" that was stolen in a raide belonged to House Reyne, due to the name and color. But still, there are plenty of very wealthy and ancestral houses that would be supposed to have one.

Keep in mind the Tyrion quote refers to Valyrian steel blades, not necessarily ancestral long- or greatswords. I would think that count would be somewhere in the several dozens...

IMO, it's not clear in the text whether Tyrion refers to longswords or any kind of blades when he gives the 200 figure. He makes it clear that there are many "minor" houses that own longswords: "Thrice at least Lord Tywin had offered to buy Valyrian longswords from impoverished lesser houses, but his advances had always been firmly rebuffed." If minor houses have them, it's weird that after centuries of rebellions and civil wars, the houses (such as the Lannisters) that have remained on top don't own them.

Also, accepting that 200 refers to the Valyrian blades including axes and daggers generetes the opposite problem: it's a number too small for the dragonbone hilt dagger to go unnoticed. As Jaak nicely puts it, the average would be 28 blades per kingdom (22 if we diferentiate the Iron Islands and KL area). So...

1) Althouhg the status of House Baelish is very low, I could buy that an immensely wealthy man like Littlefinger may have managed to purchas one. However, if he lost the blade in a bed to the king, that would be news in the whole realm. It would be one of the very first things Robert would have boasted in every conversation. Ned would have heard of it within the first two days of being in the capital. In short, Pertyr would have never been able to lie about who won the bet.

2) With only 200 blades in the whole Westeros, it would be a very valuable item. No way Joffrey would have been able to steal it. And if he had, the theft would have been huge news. Ned and Catelyn would be informed if someone had dared to steal such a precious possession to the king while in Winterfell.

3) Finally, no criminal would accept such an unique item as a payment. When he tried to sell it, everyone would go: "this is not yours, this is the king's famous Valyrian blade".

The whole subplot of the Dragonbone hilt dagger only works if such blades are, while distinct, relatively common. 200 in the whole realm wouldn't do it, IMO.

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