Valyrian Swords and Valyrian Blood

[History of Westeros]

Longclaw of Mormonts is a longsword. And Mormonts were notoriously poor compared to the Reach standard that Lynesse Hightower expected.

If Mormonts could afford a Valyrian longsword, it is odd that Reynes could not.

Yeah I don't think money comes into it. Many if not most of these swords were probably won in battle rather than bought or sold.

(and not that it matters to the debate, but Longclaw is a bastard sword, not a longsword).

[History of Westeros]

It is a widely accepted theory that House Drumm's sword "Red Rain" that was stolen in a raide belonged to House Reyne, due to the name and color. But still, there are plenty of very wealthy and ancestral houses that would be supposed to have one.

IMO, it's not clear in the text whether Tyrion refers to longswords or any kind of blades when he gives the 200 figure. He makes it clear that there are many "minor" houses that own longswords: "Thrice at least Lord Tywin had offered to buy Valyrian longswords from impoverished lesser houses, but his advances had always been firmly rebuffed." If minor houses have them, it's weird that after centuries of rebellions and civil wars, the houses (such as the Lannisters) that have remained on top don't own them.

Also, accepting that 200 refers to the Valyrian blades including axes and daggers generetes the opposite problem: it's a number too small for the dragonbone hilt dagger to go unnoticed. As Jaak nicely puts it, the average would be 28 blades per kingdom (22 if we diferentiate the Iron Islands and KL area). So...

1) Althouhg the status of House Baelish is very low, I could buy that an immensely wealthy man like Littlefinger may have managed to purchas one. However, if he lost the blade in a bed to the king, that would be news in the whole realm. It would be one of the very first things Robert would have boasted in every conversation. Ned would have heard of it within the first two days of being in the capital. In short, Pertyr would have never been able to lie about who won the bet.

Strongly disagree. If Valyrian daggers are no big deal (The text supports this, the fact that we're having this conversation supports this... and why would they be? no one wins famous duels with a dagger, for the most part). Seems like a very useful and expensive tool, not an item the whole kingdom is keeping an eye on.

Note that all the VS swords have names. That dagger clearly did not. This indicates VERY strongly that there is a huge gap between swords and the smaller VS blades in terms of fame and noteworthiness.

2) With only 200 blades in the whole Westeros, it would be a very valuable item. No way Joffrey would have been able to steal it. And if he had, the theft would have been huge news. Ned and Catelyn would be informed if someone had dared to steal such a precious possession to the king while in Winterfell.

With all due respect this is a flawed conclusion. Rarity alone does not make an item valuable. Besides that it was pointed out that Robert probably never noticed the dagger was missing, because he didn't care about it. If Robert didn't care about the dagger, and Joffrey stole it and no one noticed, that argues very strongly that it simply isn't that big a deal.

3) Finally, no criminal would accept such an unique item as a payment. When he tried to sell it, everyone would go: "this is not yours, this is the king's famous Valyrian blade".

The whole subplot of the Dragonbone hilt dagger only works if such blades are, while distinct, relatively common. 200 in the whole realm wouldn't do it, IMO.

He was paid in silver, the dagger was incidental.

[Lord Ravenstark]

There are maesters with links of Valyrian steel. IIRC there also a maester with a ring, rod and mask of Valyrian Steel.

[Don Roberto]

There are maesters with links of Valyrian steel. IIRC there also a maester with a ring, rod and mask of Valyrian Steel.

That would be Marwyn. But valyrian steel links are very rare, though probably not due to low supply. The Citadel is a very old and rich order, they probably have many hidden treasures, including valyrian steel alloy to make these chains.

[History of Westeros]

That would be Marwyn. But valyrian steel links are very rare, though probably not due to low supply. The Citadel is a very old and rich order, they probably have many hidden treasures, including valyrian steel alloy to make these chains.

Or perhaps they simply recycle the metals from Maesters who die. I doubt Maesters are buried with their chains... seems like that would be way too inviting to graverobbers.

[Dire Rabbit]

I had wondered about Maesters chains as well. An accomplished Maester would be carrying a small fortune in precious and rare metals around his neck.

[History of Westeros]

I had wondered about Maesters chains as well. An accomplished Maester would be carrying a small fortune in precious and rare metals around his neck.

Grand Maesters have jewels attached to their links as well! Pycelle's chain is possibly worth enough to build a small castle.

[Lord Ravenstark]

Grand Maesters have jewels attached to their links as well! Pycelle's chain is possibly worth enough to build a small castle.

Probably. Pycelle and his love for Tywin could build a watchtower.

[Dire Rabbit]

Probably. Pycelle and his love for Tywin could build a watchtower.

At least pitch a tent!

[The Dragon has three heads]

Game set match

[Kiss of Fire]

Are the lesser knives and daggers forged with magic and spells? I don't recall reading this was the case, only with the great swords or long swords.

[Don Roberto]

I think all valyrian steel is forged with magic. Ice was melted into two smaller swords, but could have been used to make a dagger as well (and Tyrion implies it should have been). The point being, when reworking the sword, Tywin's blacksmith says the steel kept its magical nature no matter what he did with it, so I'd wager the sorcery is done when forging the alloy, not the blade itself.

[Robinvanpersie]

I’d say a lot of its has to do with the reputation of the sword. Am ancient, powerful house like Lannister would need a similarly ancient, famous sword to be worthy to be its ancestral family sword. There seem to be three ways of getting a Valyrian longsword:

1. Buy a whole of daggers and spearheards and things and forging a new sword - this is the most practical method, probably quite easy to find daggers, spearheads, etc,. But the Lannisters would be ashamed of a sword that has been made from scrap metal. It would be a bit of a joke for the richest house in the land to scavenge for rubbish.

2. Buy or force a poorer house to part with theirs - this is also quite practical, Lannisters are quite powerful and would be able. But where is the renown in that? There’s no great story involved if they just bought a sword, as the iron born would say, there’s no honor in the gold price.

3. Take a sword from an equally powerful, ancient house - they take Ice, one of the most famous swords in the kingdom, from one of their great rivals in the land, and they destroy it and remake it into their own sword. It’s a great story from the Lannister POV, shows that they are tough MOFOs.

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

There are axes and daggers also; maybe even spearheads, halberds and so on as well. I'd say all of these variants are included in the figure given by Tyrion, but status weapons like the knightly long sword or greatsword are only a relatively small number.

The nobility could be very touchy about selling a valuable and prestigious heirloom that had been part of the family for generations. A second tier house like the Tarlys would hang on to a sword knowing that it elevated them somewhat in terms of prestige above houses of similar rank and power. Possibly best not to judge these people by modern standards; medieval nobility prized heritage and standing even more than gold in many cases.

This.

[James Arryn]

Houses who inexplicably have no mentioned Valyrian swords in history:

Arryn

Hightower

Martell

To a slightly lesser degree

Tyrell

Tully

Baratheon

Lesser still but surprising all the same

Greyjoy

Manderly

Royce

Redwyne

Yronwood

Bolton

[History of Westeros]

Houses who inexplicably have no mentioned Valyrian swords in history:

Arryn

Hightower

Martell

To a slightly lesser degree

Tyrell

Tully

Baratheon

Lesser still but surprising all the same

Greyjoy

Manderly

Royce

Redwyne

Yronwood

Bolton

I actually don't find most of these surprising, though I certainly agree with some. Keep in mind that VS blades have only been in Westeros for 4-500 years as far as we know.

Many of the blades were probably given as rewards by the Targaryens. This is probably how Ice came to House Stark.

Tyrell were stewards of Highgarden before Aegon raised them, so that was probably reward enough. If Tywin couldn't buy one, then it's no surprise they, or anyone else, couldn't either. Pretty much the same logic applies to House Tully, who were never all that strong before Aegon raised them to Lord Paramount... again, that was reward enough I would think.

Greyjoy and Bolton are poor houses, relative to other major houses. Neither house is likely to ever have done a great service to House Targaryen.

None of the Dornish houses are a surprise as Dorne is also poor and only did great service to the Targs long after the blades seem to have been all given out.

Manderly is a small surprise to me. Redwyne as well, and Royce.

Hightower is a big surprise and so is Arryn. Baratheon is a bit of a surprise since the founder was a Targaryen bastard, but perhaps once again like Tyrell and Tully: Storm's End was reward enough for Orys.

[Toccs]

Many of the blades were probably given as rewards by the Targaryens. This is probably how Ice came to House Stark.

I disagree with the theories that the Targaryens are the ones who handed out all the Valyrian Steel blades in Westeros.

Westeros and Essos did not exist in isolation from each other until Aegon invaded. All along the Narrow Sea there has constatnly been trade between the continents, the Stormlands were so connected to the Free Cities that Argilac got involved in the war against Volantis. We know that the Lannisters had possession of Brightroar at least a hundred years before the Targs invaded, because King Tommen had already gone missing with it by the time Aegon set foot on Westeros.

That we are told Ice is at least 400 years old, would imply that the Starks had it before the Targaryen arrival.

Which isn't to say that the Starks or Lannisters were trading directly with Valyria or the Free Cities. Valyrian/Essosi goods most likely entered Westeros through the Stormlands, Dorne or the Crownland regions and then through various internal Wetsrosi trades made their way to the North and Westerlands.

For example the Romans didn't actually walk all the way along the Silk Road to trade goods with China (and vice versa). Rather, goods were gradually passed along the road from culture to cultre until they eventually reached the other end.

[Sevumar]

I actually don't find most of these surprising, though I certainly agree with some. Keep in mind that VS blades have only been in Westeros for 4-500 years as far as we know.

Many of the blades were probably given as rewards by the Targaryens. This is probably how Ice came to House Stark.

I don't think it's all that probable. Here's what little we know about the history of the sword from Game:

It had been forged in Valyria, before the Doom had come to the old Freehold, when the ironsmiths had worked their metal with spells as well as hammers. Four hundred years old it was, and as sharp as the day it was forged. The name it bore was older still, a legacy from the age of heroes, when the Starks were Kings in the North.

Although it's not clearly stated, this passage makes it sound like the sword was forged for the Starks. We're given the age of the sword and the time of its forging (right before the Doom, no less!) and nothing is mentioned of the sword having another owner. If the Starks have possessed the sword for four hundred years, it seems more likely that it was made for them, and not received from the Targaryens as a reward.

[Lord Ravenstark]

I don't think it's all that probable. Here's what little we know about the history of the sword from Game:

Although it's not clearly stated, this passage makes it sound like the sword was forged for the Starks. We're given the age of the sword and the time of its forging (right before the Doom, no less!) and nothing is mentioned of the sword having another owner. If the Starks have possessed the sword for four hundred years, it seems more likely that it was made for them, and not received from the Targaryens as a reward.

Agree. They were kings, I think they ordered one.

[The hairy bear]

I disagree with the theories that the Targaryens are the ones who handed out all the Valyrian Steel blades in Westeros.

This. All Valyrian swords that we know of have been in Westeros since before the Conquest: Ice was 400 year old, the Mormonts have had Longclaw for 500 years, Heartsbane has been the Tarly's ancestral sword for 500 years,... If anything, it seems that no sword arrived to Westeros after the Doom took place 400 years ago.

Houses who inexplicably have no mentioned Valyrian swords in history:

Arryn

Hightower

Martell

To a slightly lesser degree

Tyrell

Tully

Baratheon

Lesser still but surprising all the same

Greyjoy

Manderly

Royce

Redwyne

Yronwood

Bolton

As said, when looking for candidates to for Valyrian steel owners we should look for houses that were powerful 400 years ago, since during the conquest the Targaryens had no hidden stash of swords to reward their followers.

Back then, Tyrells, Tullys and Greyjoys were not the overlords of their regions, so it's easy to explain why they don't have an ancestral Valyrian sword. And the Boltons were in the backward and poor North, too far away from Valyria to trade with them.

The swords of House Durrendon, Greenhand, and others may be now part of the Iron Throne.

As for Arryn, Hightower, Martell or Yronwood I still think it's very likely that the own Valyrian steel swords. During the timeline of the series they are ruled by boys or old men, so I don't see why they can't have their ancestral sword stored in the armory.