I gotta bad feeling about Sansa in TWOW

[Lady Redbush]

I do also think that after LF's failed attempt to rape her, Sansa will kill LF, given that the Titan's Daughter is referred to as using purple sails, like the color of the strangle. She still has the hairnet. After she kills him, she will mount a horse and flee her wedding to Harry the Heir and is captured by Ser Shadrich, or Lannister men will be sent to the Eyrie to take Sansa back to KL after the Mad Mouse sends a raven to KL.

Sansa will be taken back to KL, and brought before Cersei.

:agree:

Now with Joff the Monster dead and Sansa spending an extended period of time with LF to learn some of his advanced puppetmaster techniques, I think she might even have a decent chance of beating Cersei at her own game.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

oh and I also think its telling that Sansa doesn't like riding and rarely gets on a horse I'm thinking she may be provably intact.

[jons nissa]

I do think he told us this for a reason though, and I also think that not everything has to be intricate and complex. I just don't see it being this huge drawn out plot to get her out of the marriage, LF is a clever man and he wouldn't have planned all this for Sansa without knowing how to set her first marriage aside. He is manipulative, influential, and has access to money for bribes. I'm thinking he has it in hand.

he's already told us how he will put the first marriage aside:

"Father, I..." Alayne looked to the door, to make certain it was closed. "I am married," she whispered. "You know."

"The dwarf wed Ned Stark's daughter, not mine. Be that as it may. This is only a betrothal. The marriage must needs wait until Cersei is done and Sansa is safely widowed."

he's not even banking on marrying alayne to harry. he's banking on marrying sansa and that can only happen after tyrion dies. it is known.

readers are thinking too modernly where marriages are easily discarded but that is a very recent thing. it will not be easy to get sansa out of her current marriage.

[Blede]

We are told in the books though that an unconsummated marriage is easily set aside. and then its made very clear that Sansa's marriage to Tyrion in never consummated. I do think this will be the way out of that marriage for her.

In Tyrion's own words:

"By the High Septon or a Council of Faith. Our present High Septon is a trained seal who barks prettily on command. Moon Boy is more like to annul my marriage than he is."

The current High Septon is definitely not a trained seal, but he's just as likely to annul the marriage than the previous one. Regardless of his feelings towards the sinful evil Lannisters, remember that for everyone in Westeros Tyrion and Sansa are accomplices in kingslaying (and kinslaying for Tyrion). I don't see anyone going to the most fundamentalist High Septon in centuries petitioning to annul the marriage between public enemy # 1 and # 2, no more than I see him doing spontaneously. Actually a married Sansa is convenient for everyone in the capital, since she couldn't be used to forge marriage alliances with anyone (if anything I can see a royal envoy petitioning to NOT annul their marriage...).

[Newstar]

but i can see sansa being taken back to king's landing, one way or another.

I'm torn as to whether Sansa is going to wind up in King's Landing for Round 2 with Cersei--it seems that there have been hints here and there at unfinished business between Cersei and Sansa being dealt with in future books--or heading north, which also seems to have been foreshadowed (Sansa lamenting that meeting Jon again can "never be," which all but guarantees she's going to see him again, and I doubt Jon is going to head south anytime soon). With only two books left to go, even assuming she lives to the end of the books, I kind of think it has to be one or the other. Either she goes south again, or she heads north. Or she parks her ass in the Vale for the remaining books, I suppose, although I tend to doubt that outcome.

And for me, it's more than that. I mean, if he wanted her raped, he would have done that long ago. I mean, he made Dany raped at her second or third AGOT chapter, and he hasn't done the same with Sansa for four books?

Well, I've seen it argued that Sansa's arc is just a much longer version of Dany's arc in AGOT (or I suppose you could argue that Dany's arc in AGOT is a compressed version of Sansa's arc), which is why Sansa throughout all her chapters sounds like Dany sounds in her POV chapters prior to her transformation very early on in AGOT over the space of a few chapters from a scared, abused child bride to a badass khaleesi. So if that's the case, the only reason Sansa hasn't been raped yet is that she's not at the point yet in her "long-form" version of Dany's arc where she "needs" to get raped for the same plot/character purposes GRRM had Dany raped several times: pushing her to a point of suicidal despair which seems to have been necessary to catalyze her transformation into a khaleesi (along with her magical dragon dream when she was thisclose to killing herself). Some would say Sansa already hit rock bottom post-Red Wedding/pre-PW and that the same transformation was effected in her without the plot/character "need" for Sansa to be raped, but I'm not entirely sure she's hit rock bottom yet the same way Dany did in AGOT. So we'll see.

Also, "if GRRM wanted [bad thing] to happen to X, he would have done it long ago" is no argument, since by that reasoning, nothing bad could possibly happen to a character, since if GRRM wanted to do it, he would have done it already.

Just as Lyanna avoided a marriage to an unfaithful man so will Sansa.

Riiiiight. And Lyanna lived a long, happy life as a result of fleeing her marriage to an unfaithful, unworthy man, as we all know, so things are bound to work out for Sansa if she does what Lyanna did.

Martin needs to not just write the event but the aftermath, this one thing would then take over much of her story -if Martin writes it in a responsible manner. That is not a story I have any desire to read.

"Responsible" like the depiction of Dany's relationship with her husband, or the depiction of Act I of Jeyne getting raped on her wedding night (with Theon recruited as a participant in raping her)? Because GRRM wrote those scenes as well, and I didn't relish them, either.

She doesn't want to be married to him but it is still a shield at this point.

Yup. I don't know why it's hoped that Sansa's marriage will be annulled, since it's the only thing protecting her from getting shuffled off into a political marriage (to Harry the Heir or some other douchebag), which Sansa very clearly does not want. As long as Tyrion remains AWOL and Sansa steers clear of KL, the marriage is perfect for her purposes.

[Pinkie Baelish]

Sansa being raped will be close to Martin jumping the shark by trying to be edgy. I'd rather not see that happening, thanks. She's suffered enough already. It wouldn't advance her character and illusions about love in any way that her wedding night with Tyrion already hasn't. Littlefinger is madly in love with Sansa, but not mad enough that he would try to take her maidenhead so quickly. To do so would greatly undermine him as a villain.

Besides, Sansa and Rickon are the only Starks that are going to have a happy ending. It is known.

[Newstar]

Sansa being raped will be closing to Martin jumping the shark by trying to be edgy.

I dunno, he seems to keep trying to top himself in the "edgy" department. There was so much stuff in ADWD--Theon's mutilation and torture, Jeyne's wedding night and subsequent torture (bestiality, etc.), Frey pie, etc.--that seemed like GRRM trying to push the envelope as far as he possibly could, seeing just how much horror his audience could stomach. There was some of it in AFFC--the description of what happened at Saltpans (babies chewed out of their mother's womb, and similar), etc.--but GRRM seems compelled to try to "raise his game" with each book, probably because he knows in light of everything that's happened so far, he has a lot of work to do to shock or disgust the jaded ASOIAF reader who's suffered through all kinds of awfulness. I think there will be some truly nasty, sickening stuff in store for several characters in TWOW due to GRRM's ongoing campaign to nauseate his readers. Sansa could very well be one of those characters.

Besides, Sansa and Rickon are the only Starks that are going to have a happy ending. It is known.

As Sam said in AFFC, "There are no happy endings."

[Pinkie Baelish]

I dunno, he seems to keep trying to top himself in the "edgy" department. There was so much stuff in ADWD--Theon's mutilation and torture, Jeyne's wedding night and subsequent torture (bestiality, etc.), Frey pie, etc.--that seemed like GRRM trying to push the envelope as far as he possibly could, seeing just how much horror his audience could stomach. There was some of it in AFFC--the description of what happened at Saltpans (babies chewed out of their mother's womb, and similar), etc.--but GRRM seems compelled to try to "raise his game" with each book, probably because he knows in light of everything that's happened so far, he has a lot of work to do to shock or disgust the jaded ASOIAF reader who's suffered through all kinds of awfulness. I think there will be some truly nasty, sickening stuff in store for several characters in TWOW due to GRRM's ongoing campaign to nauseate his readers. Sansa could very well be one of those characters.

What happened to Jeyne Poole is the absolute limit of the level of violence and sadism that should be in the books. You're right: Martin does seem to try and outdo himself each time, which I think is a terrible idea. To show violence even worse than what we've already seen for no good reason just cheapens the books, and puts them on a dangerous path to becoming smutty pulp fiction. Martin utilized physical harm to main characters to great effect in the cases of Jaime and Theon, but Brienne getting her face chewed by Biter really adds nothing more to her character, and seems to be present just to shock us. This is why I'm apprehensive about the prospects of Sansa being raped. She's already seen her father beheaded, stripped and publicly beaten by the Kingsguard, forcibly wed off to Tyrion etc etc. All of these events should be enough to convey her disillusionment and loss of innocence, and I have enough faith in Martin to dismiss the idea that he won't have Sansa raped for cruelty's sake.

As Sam said in AFFC, "There are no happy endings."

Well, happy in relation to ASOIAF, of course :P If you're still alive and have all your body parts remaining by the end, that can count as a happy ending in Westeros.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I just don't see Tyrion ending up dead at any point soon. if at all. He's easily one of the most entertaining POV's and doing him in would be detrimental to the series as a whole. He is an end of book character IYAM. Besides wouldn't having him die be just as easy a way out as using the unconsummated marriage card?

Whilst the current High Septon is a zealot and the previous one a corrupt puppet, the one prior again was also easily swayed by bribes etc they do seem to get through them at a rather fast rate. Who's to say that there won't be another change at Baelors Sept or even that the anti Royal family high sparrow won't take pity on the poor innocent girl who the evil Lanisters forced into a marriage with the despicably dwarf Kinslayer. There is no evidence that is known to the public to place Sansa in the plot to off Joff. It is just gossip and speculation, she may well be seen as innocent by the Seven if it were to come to a trial. I see LF as capable of having hush hush discussions with the HS to absolve Sansa of guilt in regard to the murder and to absolve her of her marriage too.

Not to mention that the HS does seem a stickler for law & order and her being believed to be complicit in the killing does not have anything to do with whether or not the marriage can or should be dissolved. He might view the two matters separately .

She has to be absolved of guilt regarding Joffrey in order to emerge from hiding anyway. He can't exactly ask a Septon in the Vale to wed on the run wanted criminal Sansa Stark to Harry the heir publicly as he is planning.

Church and State are separate, the Seven governs itself the High Septon can both annul the Lannister marriage and decree her innocent of Joffrey's murder both without any consent or agreement from the Regent in KL. He proved this by his treatment of Cersei she was the Queen Regent and he locked her in a cell and deprived her of sleep in order to judge her for her crimes.

Any Septon who weds Sansa Stark to somebody without first shopping her whereabouts to the HS so that he can bring her to trial for her crimes is risking his holy wrath. Ergo she needs to be cleared in order to be wed in the light of the Seven.

We're told unconsummated marriages are easily set aside, whats that if not a statement that this marriage can be dissolved, we know of just 3 unconsummated marriages in Westeros: Sansa & Tyrion, Marge & Tommen and Tyrek & his toddler bride.

The last is it would seem is unimportant plot wise and is a devise to show us that anyone can be wed at any age and that adulthood and autonomy is not a prerequisite for marriage. Marge & Tommen could be the reason we are given this information but frankly I see Tommen as far more likely to die than Tyrion at this stage in the story and Marge does seem to be building a splendid portfolio of dead husbands.

Sansa needs to be wed again and sharpish to bring her back into the game as a player. A woman without a husband has very little power in the Game of Thrones, with Harry she gains an army and the abillity to once again use her name. If she just sits in the Vale hiding out and avoiding entering the game her character rapidly becomes a rather boring sideline to the real story. I think she will see Jon again and they will combine their armies. I'm just hoping Harry turns out to be a decent chap or she may be forced to feed him some tears of Lys. I've no doubt that she'll eventually serve LF a glass of Arbour Gold. Saying thanks for the leg up but I'm afraid there is not enough room for two on this ladder.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Sorry should say a woman without a movable male piece on the board has very little power. After all Cercei has her sons as does the QOT.

Danny won't have a male playing piece but well she does have Dragons...her power derives from them and unless she starts using them she won't hold power for long.

Sansa needs a husband in order to play the game.

[jons nissa]

I just don't see Tyrion ending up dead at any point soon. if at all. He's easily one of the most entertaining POV's and doing him in would be detrimental to the series as a whole. He is an end of book character IYAM.

i agree, tyrion is more than likely not going to die any time soon.

Besides wouldn't having him die be just as easy a way out as using the unconsummated marriage card?

if you think grrm is going to kill tyrion just so sansa can get out of her marriage to him, you're reading a very different series than i am.

Sansa needs to be wed again and sharpish to bring her back into the game as a player. A woman without a husband has very little power in the Game of Thrones, with Harry she gains an army and the abillity to once again use her name. If she just sits in the Vale hiding out and avoiding entering the game her character rapidly becomes a rather boring sideline to the real story. I think she will see Jon again and they will combine their armies. I'm just hoping Harry turns out to be a decent chap or she may be forced to feed him some tears of Lys. I've no doubt that she'll eventually serve LF a glass of Arbour Gold. Saying thanks for the leg up but I'm afraid there is not enough room for two on this ladder.

interesting interpretation. i don't agree. sansa is already married so she doesn't need to be wed again. what's more, she doesn't want to be wed again. it seems you like sansa as a character so i'm not sure why you're ignoring the fact that she is not interested in being "wed again and sharpish." i also disagree that her story in the vale is becoming boring. i think it's finally going to get really interesting based on what we've heard so far about book 6. finally, your hopes for harry to be a decent chap are great but he's already being set up as robert v. 2.0 so i doubt sansa would find happiness with him even if she were free to marry him, which she isn't. suggesting that she will poison him to get rid of him is, interesting, to say the least but not what i expect from sansa based on what we know of her so far.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

i agree, tyrion is more than likely not going to die any time soon.

if you think grrm is going to kill tyrion just so sansa can get out of her marriage to him, you're reading a very different series than i am.

interesting interpretation. i don't agree. sansa is already married so she doesn't need to be wed again. what's more, she doesn't want to be wed again. it seems you like sansa as a character so i'm not sure why you're ignoring the fact that she is not interested in being "wed again and sharpish." i also disagree that her story in the vale is becoming boring. i think it's finally going to get really interesting based on what we've heard so far about book 6. finally, your hopes for harry to be a decent chap are great but he's already being set up as robert v. 2.0 so i doubt sansa would find happiness with him even if she were free to marry him, which she isn't. suggesting that she will poison him to get rid of him is, interesting, to say the least but not what i expect from sansa based on what we know of her so far.

I don't think GRRM is going to Kill Tyrion just so Sansa can re marry, I never said that I said that doing so would be just as much of an easy get out from her marriage as using the fact it is unconsummated. In response to a post stating that LF has already told us how he will get Sansa out of the marriage.

Your right I do like Sansa, very much. I do think that she's going into the direction of playing the game and I think she will see that a strategic marriage will enable her to play it well. I don't think the Vale story line is boring but that it could get boring if Sansa does not make steps to enter the game. Marrying Harry enables her to do so, I would love him to be an ok guy but I don't expect him to be as you've said we've been fed info that suggests he's a philanderer. But maybe, just maybe he's simply a bachelor who will settle down once he's whipped his cloak over the right ladies shoulders. If not then yea there is always a means to rid oneself of a troublesome husband. I definitely expect Sansa to rid herself of LF once he's outlived his usefulness. I think that Sansa will change a lot within the first few chapters of TWOW and become a whole lot more manipulative. She's been learning a lot about how to play through her experiences in KL and LF tutorage She's been nursing her resentment of the other players for years now and I'm betting on her wanting to grind Cersei into the shitty gutters of Fleabottom.

[Woman of War]

It seems that many posters who like Sansa a lot have little problems with the idea that she might be handing out poisoned Arbor Gold right and left. The language.... To rid herself of LF, Cersei or of Harry...... I mean I have no problem if Sansa develops into a darker direction since for the sake of the story this might be an interesting turn but are there no reservations in those who are fans of her character?

[jons nissa]

It seems that many posters who like Sansa a lot have little problems with the idea that she might be handing out poisoned Arbor Gold right and left. The language.... To rid herself of LF, Cersei or of Harry...... I mean I have no problem if Sansa develops into a darker direction since for the sake of the story this might be an interesting turn but are there no reservations in those who are fans of her character?

another question would be what about sansa so far has inspired the idea that she would kill someone she no longer finds useful in cold blood and then choose to marry someone in order to return to king's landing and enter the game of thrones as a player?

[David Selig]

It seems that many posters who like Sansa a lot have little problems with the idea that she might be handing out poisoned Arbor Gold right and left. The language.... To rid herself of LF, Cersei or of Harry...... I mean I have no problem if Sansa develops into a darker direction since for the sake of the story this might be an interesting turn but are there no reservations in those who are fans of her character?

Killing LF or Cersei would be commendable and heroic IMO (though I hope it doesn't happen for meta reasons, both are highly entertaining characters for me). Only problem morally would be Harry.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

It seems that many posters who like Sansa a lot have little problems with the idea that she might be handing out poisoned Arbor Gold right and left. The language.... To rid herself of LF, Cersei or of Harry...... I mean I have no problem if Sansa develops into a darker direction since for the sake of the story this might be an interesting turn but are there no reservations in those who are fans of her character?

I'm sorry could you try to be a little clearer? I'm struggling to interpret this post?

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I'm just going on the principle that being used and manipulated whilst witnessing the death of her father, being forced to see his head and that of her Septa, having her bff ripped away from her to god only knows what fate, knowing her entire household guard and staff have been murdered, Not knowing the fate of her baby sister, living through mental and physical abuse, hearing that her two little brothers and literally every single person she holds dear are also killed along with her home being destroyed at the hands of her foster brother, then learning her big brother and mother have been murdered and their bodies defiled, being married off to a man who repulsed her, escaping to a Aunt who is unstable and tried to kill her oh and being almost constantly in fear of rape and death. Might just might make her a bit cynical and harden her heart up a touch and make her want revenge upon the people who caused these things. Maybe not maybe she just wants a quite life as Alayne, But I do think my idea makes for a better story. :dunno: or at least a more dramatic one.

[Woman of War]

Killing LF or Cersei would be commendable and heroic IMO (though I hope it doesn't happen for meta reasons, both are highly entertaining characters for me). Only problem morally would be Harry.

And soon we would have a hundred whitewashing threads about Sansa and why her killings are ok and not really murder .....looking forward to quote the Sansa fans with material from their posts in countless Tyrion threads :D about the evils of whitewashing.

[David Selig]

Well, I can't speak for other Sansa fans, but I've always considered Tyrion's murder of Tywin the best thing he ever did by some margin, Sansa killing LF or Cersei would be a similar case.

[James Sucellus]

I feel like she is gonna go through hell like she might get best up more, raped by Harry or Littilefinger, get pregant and die or she might finally realize she loves whoever and they die. GRRM even said that one of her chapters was going to be controvisal like she gonna get raped I pray to god no I would cry because of that I might actally not want to read it or puke like every mention is rape makes me disgusted.

Why does rape disgust you more than murder or torture? Is a violent act suddenly a billion times worse just because the perpetrator cums?