Septon Chayle is the Hooded Man in WF (Theon I Spoilers)

[mushroomshirt]

Patchface, anyone?

Lol!

[bemused]

Sigh... well I think the miller's boy(s) is a stretch. You have to assume that someone would have had time to come north , question people we don't know exist and basically go out of their way to find out if the term fits in every respect.. I think members of the GNC had bigger fish to fry.

But of all the candidates , Benjen , Harwin or Hal Mollen who all saw Theon in WF and how close he was to Robb , receiving equal education and training etc., might not hesitate to call him kinslayer.. in their eyes , he'd be the next thing to it . Really, are people in our society so precise about calling someone a M-F ?

I'm sure they'd stay their hand to avoid an outcry. Everyone thinks they're probably dead , so Theon wouldn't be believed..and we see he doesn't mention the HM to anyone..only that the ghosts talk to him.. But they wouldn't hold back with their language. He'd be utterly repulsive and disgusting to any of them.

[the old dude]

So, Septon Chayle's appearance at the wedding of Alys Karstark and Sigorn is just an error by GRRM? Is there any confirmation that he ment to write Cellador, an interview, press release, Q&A, or anything?

[Slayer of Lies]

So, Septon Chayle's appearance at the wedding of Alys Karstark and Sigorn is just an error by GRRM? Is there any confirmation that he ment to write Cellador, an interview, press release, Q&A, or anything?

None that I’ve found, but interesting that GRRM made the apparent mental slip (which also happens to occur in between A Ghost in Winterfell and Theon I in published chapter order).

I don’t see that Chayle at the Wall could be anything other than a typo, given the context, and as such I don’t think this does anything conclusive regarding the case for Chayle as the HM. If it’s not a typo, then it would instead need to be explained why Chayle is at the Wall, but most people online seem to agree that this was an error on GRRM’s (and his editors’) part.

As I see it, the biggest hole in the Chayle is the HM theory is that he’s “dead,” although not finding a body is important in Westeros, and the fact that his name even occurred to GRRM to (seemingly accidentally) type three books after his “death” may serve to give this theory more credence than detract from it.

[mb2518]

What evidence rules out Mance being the hooded man?

[the old dude]

None that I’ve found, but interesting that GRRM made the apparent mental slip (which also happens to occur in between A Ghost in Winterfell and Theon I in published chapter order).

I don’t see that Chayle at the Wall could be anything other than a typo, given the context, and as such I don’t think this does anything conclusive regarding the case for Chayle as the HM. If it’s not a typo, then it would instead need to be explained why Chayle is at the Wall, but most people online seem to agree that this was an error on GRRM’s (and his editors’) part.

As I see it, the biggest hole in the Chayle is the HM theory is that he’s “dead,” although not finding a body is important in Westeros, and the fact that his name even occurred to GRRM to (seemingly accidentally) type three books after his “death” may serve to give this theory more credence than detract from it.

Hmmm....seems like a strange typo for an author so careful with his choice of words. Most peope online think its just an error you say? Most people online also like cat videos on youtube. I don't trust their judgement. :lol: I'm willing to suspend belief either way.

EDIT: Yeah, probably a typo. "Chayle" is mentioned to finger the crystal he wore around the neck. Cellador does the same thing. Guess I like cat videos too. :ack:

[Slayer of Lies]

What evidence rules out Mance being the hooded man?

For one, that the HM seems to be surprised that Theon is alive: “How is it you still breathe?”

Mance is certainly aware of Theon’s existence at this point, and his potential usefulness besides, or else wouldn’t have sent the spearwives to “fetch” him at the end of the same chapter in which Theon meets the HM.

Hmmm....seems like a strange typo for an author so careful with his choice of words. Most peope online think its just an error you say? Most people online also like cat videos on youtube. I don't trust their judgement. :lol: I'm willing to suspend belief either way.

Har! :cheers:

[Bonifer Tasty]

Hmmm....seems like a strange typo for an author so careful with his choice of words. Most peope online think its just an error you say? Most people online also like cat videos on youtube. I don't trust their judgement. :lol: I'm willing to suspend belief either way.

I just has to be an error - Cellador has recently been described as opposed to Jon's plans to let the wildlings in, and as such, would be opposed to Alys Karstark marrying a wildling. He is described as "Chayle", who briefly emerges from the sept, fingers a seven sided crystal around his neck, and goes back in - presumably a protest, making sure to be seen LEAVING the wedding. He is, however, NOT described as drunk - which would certainly clinch a Cellador identity.

Interestingly, the publishing error occurs in both teh British and the US volumes, and in the British hard and paperback versions...in other words, not corrected. I wasn't able to find the full French text on-line to see if he is listed as Chayle even in the translation...

But it has to be Cellador. Chayle makes no sense whatsoever in that context.

[the old dude]

EDIT: Yeah, probably a typo. "Chayle" is mentioned to finger the crystal he wore around the neck. Cellador does the same thing. Guess I like cat videos too. :ack:

The two of you ninja'd my edit so I'll put it here.

[Slayer of Lies]

But it has to be Cellador. Chayle makes no sense whatsoever in that context.

EDIT: Yeah, probably a typo. "Chayle" is mentioned to finger the crystal he wore around the neck. Cellador does the same thing. Guess I like cat videos too. :ack:

Yep. Case closed.

My Nook copy must have updated, I have a friend with an iBook version, and I recently bought the paperback, and all three of them say "Cellador."

So, definite publication error that has since been caught and fixed.

[mrlukeduke]

It's good to know books are updated to remove errors. Does this mean that they'll eventually update bigger mistakes like Jeyne's hips, I wonder? Or will that be left to character "perceptual error" / "unreliable narrator".

[Slayer of Lies]

It's good to know books are updated to remove errors. Does this mean that they'll eventually update bigger mistakes like Jeyne's hips, I wonder? Or will that be left to character "perceptual error" / "unreliable narrator".

It would be interesting to note, yeah? Not to derail this thread, but Jeyne’s hips, as told through Jaime’s POV, are still noted as “narrow” in the updated copy. So, is it a mistake, or not? Why change Chayle to Cellador, but not also change "narrow" to “good” or some other adjective consistent with Cat’s observations? Anyway…

As for the HM, while I’m not sold on the Davos angle, and while I’m aware that GRRM plans to add no new POVs, I would love for the prologue to be told through the perspective of the HM.

Personally, I would love for The Winds of Winter to begin inside Winterfell, and end at or near the Wall, and a “temporary new POV” (temporary, because he would most likely die at the end of the prologue) that starts off inside WF would be interesting on a number of levels.

It would reveal the identity of the HM (if told from his perspective), and it would give us some level of insight as to what’s going on within the walls – maybe even work reveal or confirm the author of the pink letter.

If the HM turns out to be Chayle, I think it would provide a really interesting tone to the chapter as well. Exposition into how he survived the fall down the well, reflections on what WF used to be and represent, how far it’s fallen through Theon’s and Ramsay’s involvement, and even a look on the inside perhaps revealing/confirming whether Mance is actually in captivity or not (since it “happened” off-page with the letter as the only source of “confirmation”).

Of course, Asha/Theon could later expose what’s going on within WF (provided one or both of them makes it there), but a prologue from the soon-to-be-deceased HM’s perspective would be a great setup either way.

[trogdore]

Could the hooded man be Vary's. He could have a very strong motive for being there. After theon takes Winterfell his "little birds" no longer get news to him so it's possible he doesn't know what happened to Theon. As for getting in and out I would not be surprised at all if he knows secret ways in and out. The way yellow dick is killed is also a reason why I think it's Vary's he makes him for a short period of time a eunuch and it also frames Mance and the washer women giving him an easy escape. As far as a motive for being there it seems to me that Ned did write a letter in the black cells probably for Jon about his mother and Vary's did read it and is using it to serve his interests. So what I am getting at is Vary's could be the hooded man and could he be in Winterfell for the crypts and proof of Jon's parentage. If he has this information it could very well mean he sent the letter to Jon about Mance and reek captured and stannis being killed. If this is the case could Jon be the mummers dragon? Does he truly serve the realm?

[The Crow's Third Eye]

Could the hooded man be Vary's. He could have a very strong motive for being there. After theon takes Winterfell his "little birds" no longer get news to him so it's possible he doesn't know what happened to Theon. As for getting in and out I would not be surprised at all if he knows secret ways in and out. The way yellow dick is killed is also a reason why I think it's Vary's he makes him for a short period of time a eunuch and it also frames Mance and the washer women giving him an easy escape. As far as a motive for being there it seems to me that Ned did write a letter in the black cells probably for Jon about his mother and Vary's did read it and is using it to serve his interests. So what I am getting at is Vary's could be the hooded man and could he be in Winterfell for the crypts and proof of Jon's parentage. If he has this information it could very well mean he sent the letter to Jon about Mance and reek captured and stannis being killed. If this is the case could Jon be the mummers dragon? Does he truly serve the realm?

it wouodnt work, the timing is off. Travel across Westeros would be tricky and time consuming so its doubtful that Varys would be able to get from WF back to KL in time to kill Jevan. Plus someone has to keep an eye on the pot that is Kings Landing, he cant risk leaving that scene for too long as it changes so quickly. WF is too removed, its not Varys

[messem]

I've just stumbled across this theory in another thread. http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/104374-the-craziest-plausible-theory/

As for connecting Chayle to the HM, we several things to consider:

• It stands to reason that a septon would also simply let Theon be, as opposed to murdering him out in the cold, particularly in light of his absolution.
  

It makes sense to me. Absolutely.

[bogdevil]

this is crackpot and I haven't tried to go back and look up evidence for it yet, but just a thought that occurred to me this morning. I don't think i have seen it postulated before, but could it be possible that the HM is ironborn? They might consider Theon a turncloak/kinslayer because of the way he surrendered WF to ramsay. Could Stannis have sent one of the men with Asha into WF as a spy? Could Euron have sent someone as a spy?

[bemused]

Asha's men were not with her until after the escape. Why would Euron or Dagmer send anyone in? Not so easy to just "send" anyone in.

[messem]

could it be possible that the HM is ironborn?

I don't think so. The HM recognized Theon immediately. Even Asha didn't recognize him. It has to be somebody who knew a long time.

[mattyp1186]

I didnt read all the post so someone might have mentioned this, but if chayle is from white knife (part of white harbor) why wouldnt he worship the old gods? I mean anyone can find faith where they will, but in the dance with dragons davos chapter the manderly men seem pretty proud of that heritage.

[buff daddy]

I thought White Harbor/the Manderlys had more Southron influences than the rest of the North