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Slayer of Lies

Septon Chayle is the Hooded Man in WF (Theon I Spoilers)

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Ok, I gave my arguments in this or another thread about the Hooded Man once or twice some time ago, but I'll give you another angle:

1) There is this GRRM quote that we won't see any new POVs

2) We need a POV in Winterfell to find out what is going on

3) The only chance to plant a POV before Theon escapes is the Hooded Man (this can be compared to making Melisandre a POV before Jon Snow gets assassinated).

4) Conclusion: the Hooded Man will become our POV in Winterfell in TWoW.

5) Which male POV is unaccounted for, is know for sneaky missions, using a knife, has lost some fingerbones, and has to report to Manderly about his last mission?

6) Davos!

7) Sorry, you won't read about Skagos and unicorns.

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5) Which male POV is unaccounted for, is know for sneaky missions, using a knife, has lost some fingerbones, and has to report to Manderly about his last mission?

I think this theory is as good as any (however, I'm a Theon Durden supporter myself ;) ) but I'm curious as to the import of the part of your post I bolded above? I don't recall the Hooded Man being described as missing some fingers, etc. :dunno:

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I like the Davos angle, too, particularly for adding a WF POV on the inside, although I think Davos has the same “problem” that Robett has (on top of potential timeline constraints):



Why, if you’re in the camp of people (Robett, Wyman, Davos, Wex, Theon and Ramsay) that knows Bran and Rickon are alive, would you call Theon kinslayer?



Similarly, why would “Theon Durden” call himself kinslayer?



This is why it seems to me that the HM believes Theon is a kinslayer, because he’s not in the camp of “people in the know.”



This notion may not totally discredit either candidate’s eligibility to some, especially to those that favor the Robett/Davos/Theon theories, but I think it’s worth noting.


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I like the Davos angle, too, particularly for adding a WF POV on the inside, although I think Davos has the same “problem” that Robett has (on top of potential timeline constraints):

Why, if you’re in the camp of people (Robett, Wyman, Davos, Wex, Theon and Ramsay) that knows Bran and Rickon are alive, would you call Theon kinslayer?

Similarly, why would “Theon Durden” call himself kinslayer?

This is why it seems to me that the HM believes Theon is a kinslayer, because he’s not in the camp of “people in the know.”

This notion may not totally discredit either candidate’s eligibility to some, especially to those that favor the Robett/Davos/Theon theories, but I think it’s worth noting.

I dont personally buy Davos=HM but i will abswer you for arguments sake. If Davos had discovered Rickon was dead, he may consider Theon a kinslayer as his actions were a substantial/more than a minimal cause of Rickon's flight and therefore he may be considered partially responsible for his death

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Similarly, why would “Theon Durden” call himself kinslayer?

I believe the exchange between the Hooded Man and Reek is, basically, an exchange between the two warring halves of Theon/Reek's psyche. I think he is just leveling those accusations at himself that the world levels at him. I also believe the Reek/Theon-related chapter names in ADWD are very telling in this respect. Others' mileage may vary :dunno:

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I dont personally buy Davos=HM but i will abswer you for arguments sake. If Davos had discovered Rickon was dead, he may consider Theon a kinslayer as his actions were a substantial/more than a minimal cause of Rickon's flight and therefore he may be considered partially responsible for his death

Or...and this would be shocking indeed...Davos is returning having found out that Rickon is now dead...and so Theon now qualifies... (Although, Martin has mentioned that we will see Osha again, so I don't really think this is so). Still, it WOULD be shocking.

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Or...and this would be shocking indeed...Davos is returning having found out that Rickon is now dead...and so Theon now qualifies... (Although, Martin has mentioned that we will see Osha again, so I don't really think this is so). Still, it WOULD be shocking.

Thats what i said :p Theon would be indirectly responsible because his actions caused Rickon to flee to whatever situation killed him. But feading.back i dpnt make that cpear, haha

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I think this theory is as good as any (however, I'm a Theon Durden supporter myself ;) ) but I'm curious as to the import of the part of your post I bolded above? I don't recall the Hooded Man being described as missing some fingers, etc. :dunno:

No, but the Hooded Man laughs when Theon shows his hands. Davos accepted his punishment, so he maybe thinks Theon is accepting his punishment as well, which leads to the "oh, I leave you to him then" line (paraphrased)

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Ok, I gave my arguments in this or another thread about the Hooded Man once or twice some time ago, but I'll give you another angle:

1) There is this GRRM quote that we won't see any new POVs

2) We need a POV in Winterfell to find out what is going on

3) The only chance to plant a POV before Theon escapes is the Hooded Man (this can be compared to making Melisandre a POV before Jon Snow gets assassinated).

4) Conclusion: the Hooded Man will become our POV in Winterfell in TWoW.

5) Which male POV is unaccounted for, is know for sneaky missions, using a knife, has lost some fingerbones, and has to report to Manderly about his last mission?

6) Davos!

7) Sorry, you won't read about Skagos and unicorns.

Actually we don't need a new POV character in Winterfell if...

as a result of the imminent battle outside Winterfell, Stannis wins and then takes the castle, and then there will be as much as 2 POVs: Theon and Asha

or if Bolton wins and takes Asha prisoner (not Theon, not yet)

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I think this theory is as good as any (however, I'm a Theon Durden supporter myself ;) ) but I'm curious as to the import of the part of your post I bolded above? I don't recall the Hooded Man being described as missing some fingers, etc. :dunno:

He was alluding to the possibility of Davos being the HM.

Actually we don't need a new POV character in Winterfell if...

as a result of the imminent battle outside Winterfell, Stannis wins and then takes the castle, and then there will as much as 2 POVs: Theon and Asha

or if Bolton wins and takes Asha prisoner (not Theon, not yet)

Or... a Bolton prologue!!! Wishful thinking I know.

I think this theory is as good as any (however, I'm a Theon Durden supporter myself ;) ) but I'm curious as to the import of the part of your post I bolded above? I don't recall the Hooded Man being described as missing some fingers, etc. :dunno:

I don't think the Theon Durden theory is disprovable at this time, but 1 simple fact makes me not buy it. GRRM has sooooo much writing done and to do, why add the scene if it added nothing to the story? Every reader could already see that Theon was loosing/had lost his mind and was getting it back. Adding 1 scene where he see's another version of himself really adds nothing, adding a scene that shows someone else is in Winterfell that we don't know for sure sets up GRRM to make/let something happen in the future.

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I think this theory is as good as any (however, I'm a Theon Durden supporter myself ;) ) but I'm curious as to the import of the part of your post I bolded above? I don't recall the Hooded Man being described as missing some fingers, etc. :dunno:

That's the thing, the HM is not given any physical description; just the hood and the dagger. GRRM even says that "their eyes briefly met", yet even his eyes are not described, which contradicts GRRM's tendency to do just that. So this leaves the identity of the HM a complete mystery.

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No, but the Hooded Man laughs when Theon shows his hands. Davos accepted his punishment, so he maybe thinks Theon is accepting his punishment as well, which leads to the "oh, I leave you to him then" line (paraphrased)

OK, thanks! I was just interested in what you meant by that and I wanted to make sure I wasn't forgetting an important detail that the Hooded Man was described as missing fingers :)

He was alluding to the possibility of Davos being the HM.

Or... a Bolton prologue!!! Wishful thinking I know.

I don't think the Theon Durden theory is disprovable at this time, but 1 simple fact makes me not buy it. GRRM has sooooo much writing done and to do, why add the scene if it added nothing to the story? Every reader could already see that Theon was loosing/had lost his mind and was getting it back. Adding 1 scene where he see's another version of himself really adds nothing, adding a scene that shows someone else is in Winterfell that we don't know for sure sets up GRRM to make/let something happen in the future.

Yes, no theories can be proven or disproven at this time - that's why we're talking about them ;) But I do disagree that, should the Theon Durden theory prove true, that it was unnecessary. I believe that Reek/Theon is on a sort of psychological journey throughout ADWD from playing the role of Reek to reclaiming himself again. And I believe that the encounter with the Hooded Man is a bit of a turning point for him. I also think the chapter names changing feeds into this idea.

That's the thing, the HM is not given any physical description; just the hood and the dagger. GRRM even says that "their eyes briefly met", yet even his eyes are not described, which contradicts GRRM's tendency to do just that. So this leaves the identity of the HM a complete mystery.

I agree. That fact might mean something or it might mean nothing :dunno:

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The theory is Theon is a kinslayer because the Miller's boys were his bastards. He remembers bedding the Miller's wife, and he is not good at recognizing his own family (Asha). Osha/Luwin may know the truth of it, and this information may have gotten to Davos at Skagos, hence the claim. Even Abel's troop don't call him kinslayer until about the time the hooded man shows up. And if anyone could sneak into Winterfell, its the smuggler.


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The theory is Theon is a kinslayer because the Miller's boys were his bastards. He remembers bedding the Miller's wife, and he is not good at recognizing his own family (Asha). Osha/Luwin may know the truth of it, and this information may have gotten to Davos at Skagos, hence the claim. Even Abel's troop don't call him kinslayer until about the time the hooded man shows up. And if anyone could sneak into Winterfell, its the smuggler.

That theory requires Theon to have had a baby at 10.

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I dislike the Durden theories only because we already HAVE a much more subtle and better-written "Durden" style sequence of events through Theon's pov chapters. It's obvious he's losing his mind and 'splitting' into personality parts – a common coping technique during times of extreme physical and psychological torture, let alone years of it at the hands of the sadistic Ramsay.


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The theory is Theon is a kinslayer because the Miller's boys were his bastards. He remembers bedding the Miller's wife, and he is not good at recognizing his own family (Asha). Osha/Luwin may know the truth of it, and this information may have gotten to Davos at Skagos, hence the claim. Even Abel's troop don't call him kinslayer until about the time the hooded man shows up. And if anyone could sneak into Winterfell, its the smuggler.

That’s where the pot cracks for me…

So, Theon, who was ~19 when the books started (born in ~279AL, AGOT starts in ~298AL), reportedly had fooled around with the miller’s wife which, according to the theory, resulted in boys that were roughly 8 and 5, meaning Theon hooked up with the miller’s wife when he was 10-11 years old. Then, not only is the HM Davos, but Davos recognizes Theon having never seen/met him before, and also knows Theon’s private backstory, and that’s the justification for him calling Theon “Kinslayer.”

Everything’s on the table, I suppose, but I have a really hard time with pretty much all of that, personally...

In any case, it does seem the readership collective is equally as divided today as it was two years ago, based on all the suspects put forth and the rebuttals to the various premises.

In oversimplified summary, if the HM is someone that Theon think is dead, then it’s apparently irrelevant whether Theon thinks of them as dead after the HM sighting. If the HM is someone that knows Theon didn’t kill Bran and Rickon, calling him “Theon Kinslayer” still makes perfect sense to many readers. If the HM is someone who is nowhere near WF and has no foreshadowing for going there, that’s not an obstacle to showing up out of the blue, having scaled the walls or found some alternate way in despite the largely impregnable nature of WF. If the HM is someone who may have never met Theon in person, they recognize him nonetheless. And, if Theon has Multiple Personality Disorder, for which there is no text precedent in ASOIAF, that is also not an obstacle for many readers.

Based on how divided the readership is, I’m sure we could add Dagmer to the conversation too, since Theon asserts that he is ironborn as a means of “justifying” allegedly killing Bran and Rickon.

If Theon Durden is on the table, based on Theon’s fragile mental state, surely it’s equally plausible for the HM to be a woman. After all, the premise of Theon Durden is that he’s lost his mind. To that point, what if the HM is purely a figment of Theon’s imagination, taking the credibility of Theon’s entire POV through the mud?

How about a Ned Stark sighting?

Patchface, anyone?

There’s an argument for nearly everything, I suppose, and I expect to continue to see a wide variety of opinions on this subject. But it would be nice to agree on some “filters” to apply.

· Is it someone living?

· Is it a man?

· Is it someone other than Theon?

· Is it someone holding a dagger?

I think yes.

· Is it someone that recognizes Theon?

· Is it someone that Theon recognizes?

The person recognizes Theon, or they wouldn’t’ say his name twice, but there is no proof whether Theon recognizes the man or not (they make eye contact; that’s about all we have to go on).

· Is it someone that believes Theon is a kinslayer?

I think so, or the HM wouldn’t call him Theon Kinslayer.

· Is it someone around which Theon felt comfortable revealing that he didn’t kill the Stark boys?

No.

· Is it someone disgusted by Theon’s decision to overtake WF and kill some Starks along the way?

“False is all you were.”

· Is it someone who has been in WF for a while?

· Is it someone who has recently arrived to WF?

One of those two things has to be true.

· Is it a major character?

· Is it a POV?

Not necessarily, but maybe.

· Is it a “random northman” and we’ll never get resolution?

I don’t believe so, but we’ll see.

For me, Chayle passes all the basic filters, if you buy that it’s possible the well and the godswood pool connect, and that he lived, and those filters would also “rule out” Theon Durden, Robett, Davos, Harwin and others, for a variety of reasons.

But it’s clear that not everyone agrees, which is what makes it an open mystery.

And I do think the Davos angle would be a great play for the overall story, providing a POV inside WF (especially if Asha/Theon do not actually head there after the battle of ice).

But… Davos and Robett have the same obstacles to overcome. I think you have to write off “Theon Kinslayer” as a name that simply “stuck” out of common use, and not take it to literally mean that the HM believes Theon killed the Stark boys. You have to “concoct” a backstory for why Davos would recognize Theon, such as skulking around WF for long enough to learn who’s who. And you have to believe that Davos or Robett would be able to figure out a stealthy way into WF, having never done so before in their lives.

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Rickon is four (when he was "killed"). Theon was 19. Very possible. He needen't have sired both Miller's boys to have been a kinslayer.


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Rickon is four (when he was "killed"). Theon was 19. Very possible. He needen't have sired both Miller's boys to have been a kinslayer.

Even if true, for anyone else to know or suspect this, thereby calling Theon kinslayer on that basis feels like a long shot to me.

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I've always assumed that the HM got into Winterfell through the crypts, and that has led me to wonder if Barbry Dustin was in communication with the HM somehow, and her urgency to get Theon to show her (and open up) the crypts was part of that. But then, I became besotted with the Harwin scenario, wondered if Catelyn knew a way into Winterfell and told him of it, which didn't seem all that likely. In short, I have lacked focus on this issue. LOL. I like the list of filters you have assembled...I will work through them and see if I can fail to focus even more completely! Exciting.


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