Septon Chayle is the Hooded Man in WF (Theon I Spoilers)

[alienarea]

And Reek has too little attitude to be Theon Greyjoy. If you haven't realised yet, people change. And repeating the obvious is not the same as being dim.

And c'mon. Is there a much better argument then claiming that Hallis Mollen (HM) = (HM) Hooded Man?

Havos Meaworth. Sigh ...

[nickdt]

Actually. I have given it a thought myself and i came to the conclusion that there was never explicit stated that Raynald Westerling died. What if he survived his wounds and travelled to WF in disguise and that he is the HM. He was loyal to Robb and wants retribution.

[Lady of the Falls]

I thought the HM may be Blackfish, and does anyone know what happened to the the "miller" did he go w/ RS when he called his banners. We know his wife was killed. Is it possible it was him. If he suspected TG was sleepn w/wife and might be the daddy to the youngest boy, that may explain the kinslayer part. I just don't think the HM is Chayle.

[nickdt]

I thought the HM may be Blackfish, and does anyone know what happened to the the "miller" did he go w/ RS when he called his banners. We know his wife was killed. Is it possible it was him. If he suspected TG was sleepn w/wife and might be the daddy to the youngest boy, that may explain the kinslayer part. I just don't think the HM is Chayle.

Small chance. If he suspected it, he was going to Ned.

[Lady of the Falls]

Small chance. If he suspected it, he was going to Ned.

Why would he go to Ned? That's assuming you know the operation of his mind. He may or he may not. I just don't think Chayle's the HM

[Steelborn]

I thought the HM may be Blackfish, and does anyone know what happeneiller" did d to the the "mhe go w/ RS when he called his banners. We know his wife was killed. Is it possible it was him. If he suspected TG was sleepn w/wife and might be the daddy to the youngest boy, that may explain the kinslayer part. I just don't think the HM is Chayle.

Almost impossible to go from Riverrun to Winterfell in that short peroid of time, especially with the current climate.

[mbuehner]

The Kinslayer argument is important to what is happening in WF, whoever the hooded man is. Consider:

- Nobody ever calls Theon a kinslayer until the HM does, followed almost immediately by Rowan the Spearwife, and Mors the Northman.

- Rowan specifically addresses the argument Theon makes that Bran and Rickon werent his blood, "“Stark’s boys were never brothers to you, aye. We know.”

- A lot of people argue she meant they werent brothers to you, but we consider them brothers and you a kinslayer. This should be rejected because Kinslaying in Westeros is deadly, deadly serious business. We heard a lot of stories about how even inadvertent kinslayers are damned by the gods in the worst possible ways. People are terrified at the prospect. Just being best friends or brought up in the same household could never cut it. Westros is a violent place, if every knight that considered another knight so close as to be brothers was damned for killing him on the battlefield, nothing would ever get done. No, kinslaying is killing ones own blood, hence the 'magic' set in motion against the perpetrator.

Now if you buy that argument, the millers boy is the only one we know of that might qualify. Theon could have been 15 or 16 and sired the boy, which is entirely plausible.

That being said- the three people who called Theon a Kinslayer at the end of Dance is critical. You have:

1) An unknown Hooded Man who appears to be new to WF (or at least in hiding).

2) A spearwife inside WF.

3) Mors Umber

The fact that these 3 seem to share this information is key. Combine that with the beating drums and trumpets seeming to be a signal, Mors people just happening to be at the right place and time at the walls of WF to retrieve fake Arya and Theon, and you have yourself a neat little conspiracy. Somehow, and for some reason, information is being shared between Northmen and Mance.

As to who the hooded man is, the Law of Conservation of Characters suggest it is likely the person who had knowledge of the Kinslaying. That means someone local to WF, or someone who could have been told. Chayle probably qualifies due to proximity. I just dont know that he has the swagger the HM displayed, he seems like a fighting man.

Another person in my mind is Galbart Glover- via information from Patrek Mallister who chatted with Theon about the millers wife he himself was bedding (surely Theon would share his own story- and note shortly after this he told the ship captains daughter she was probably with child, it may have been on his mind). Glover could galvanize the remaining northman into action if he is carrying Rob's will. His brother or Manderly could inform him about the murdered miller boys and they could put it all together, now everybody involved in the conspiracy knows the Stark boys werent killed, the Miller boys were, and one was TGs son. Also Glover needs Theon alive- his son is being held hostage by Theon's mothers family. A neat coincidence. How Mance and the SWs fit into that is beyond me- but Glover might have insisted they get him out of WF too for his familys sake.

Benjin is interesting. He could have the knowledge, and more importantly he most easily bridges all of the people in the conspiracy. He would recognize Mance, which brings them into the conspiracy. He knows WF as well as anyone. Northmen would rally to him and cooperate. I suspect basically all the Northmen that arent Boltons are involved in this, even Barbrey (I suspect she's pulling a Snape, perhaps sharing Roose's bed).

As an aside- also note who doesnt call Theon a Kinslayer- anyone in Stannis's camp. This strongly suggests he is NOT involved in any conspiracy.

[bemused]

Of course, I think the HM is Benjen, (which I must have said before in this thread) but Benjen and Mance have never met , although Mance has seen Benjen at the feast for Robert in WF. So Mance would recognise Benjen, but not the other way around.

However, I believe BJ has been in contact with the other northern resistance (directly and indirectly), the most likely point of face-to-face contact being with the Clans, followed, possibly, by Jonelle Cerwyn and / or anyone who could have journeyed up and down the White Knife (e.g. Glover, Umbers). In this case, both the HM (Benjen) and Mors could share reasons for using the term kinslayer.

Rowan's use of the term could be a bit of an outlier. Although it seems that she might have been stolen in a raid by the wildlings at a young age (explaining her reverence for Ned), she may also have come to adopt the wildling concept of "kin", which extends beyond the normal northern concept - as shown by Ygriite's beliefs about what constitutes incest.

I don't think people are in as much mortal terror of the act as has been suggested. Next to breaking guest right (the very worst), it's certainly considered the most unspeakable, but it seems to happen fairly frequently (or to be suspected) all the same.

Although the miller's younger boy could have been Theon's, I don't think the people who call him "kinslayer" would have to know that by any means.. Even if they knew he had slept with the miller's wife ( and we see no proof that they do) they couldn't know that the child was not the miller's...(And if she slept with her husband and Theon..had she been sleeping with anyone else? )

We do also have Ygritte's opinion that a person is no less a kinslayer , even if he didn't know that he was related to the victim... but if we're going to be so precise over the use of the word , we should also not forget that Theon did not actually kill the boys himself... shouldn't that count?

(He dressed their bodies and he did kill the mother.)

My bet is still that if it turns out to be true that the boy was his, it will be part of Theon's personal tragedy but not important to the workings of the northern resistance.

The Septon Chayle theory requires so much invention for which there are no clues or hints in the books that I don't think it warrants serious consideration.

( And I'd just like to ask , can we really think the ironborn don't know how to drown a person ? When they say a man has been drowned ,chances are he's been drowned.)

[mbuehner]

Good points, though I'd suspect that any ranking Crow would know what Mance looked like to some degree. If, for whatever reasons BJ had reason to think a FF leader was in WF, he might do the math. IE- if he saw Mance with a spear wife or two chatting it might raise an eyebrow. Or more specifically- Benjen would be uniquely qualified to make such a connection, compared to anyone else plausibly in Winterfell.

I wont back down on the Kinslayer argmument though. First- its too coincidental that you never hear that term despite all the shit Theon has been through, and suddenly you hear it 3 times in about 50 pages... including a specific disclaimer making the argument about what constitutes brothers. It was no accident or change of style for certain.

And if that is true, there MUST be some connection between those three characters to pass along the kinslayer meme. It defies credulity that any one of them just by chance called him a kinslayer, while one or two of the others knew it for a fact.

But you have struck on the key mystery (or knife in the heart of the theory if you like)- how could anyone know about this. I think you're right that it would have to be someone with actual definitive knowledge that he had a son by way of the Miller, and thats a tough stretch (Maester Luwin would make some sense, but i dont buy into his being alive personally).

Now this does open the door in the Theon Durden theory, in that Theon could well know that he killed his own child, and may well have told any number of people offscreen. Once you open up the door to the unreliable narrator, just about anything is possible. But thats also the downside of that theory- anything is possible so any manner of theory could play that card.

[bemused]

mbuehner...

Oh, I think the way kinslayer is used is entirely intentional on GRRM's part , but the whole point may be for us to consider the possibility that one of the miller's sons might actually be Theon's, especially in light of Ygritte's claims about unintentional kinslayers still being kinslayers. So far , I don't think we've seen another situation where that piece of information would apply. It doesn't necessarily mean that the three characters know it to be true.

I also think that we need to remember that before he gets to WF, we only see Theon ("Reek") in Bolton company and briefly, with the Ironborn at Moat Caillin. Neither of those groups are likely to call him kinslayer.. as for the northmen inside WF, they are at least pretending to be Roose's allies. We can assume many of them are hiding the depth of their feelings. Some of them could be biting their tongues .. we simply don't know. ... and Kinslaying is a delicate topic to raise in Bolton company.

I'd say GRRM seems to put truths in characters' mouths without the characters actually actually being aware, fairly often .. E.g. , I'd bet anything it turns out to be true that Benjen has been helped by the CoTF, just as Bran blurts out in AGoT, even though it seems to be only a little boy's wishful thinking / denial , at the time.

I've seen all kinds of suppositions about how the HM, Mors and Rowan could know, usually involving the miller's wife herself having said as much to someone (Luwin, Septon Chayle, or some unknown person who would spread the tale to Glover or Mallister, etc.) ... and I've often pointed out that if any of the characters in question could actually know .. if the HM did actually know, he still would most logically be Benjen .

If he's there , he's been helped by the Children (and Bloodraven) ... The miller's wife, as a northerner connected to WF, but not a resident of WF, would have been more likely to have confided in a heart tree, rather than Septon Chayle or Luwin. So if there is anything to be known about it , Bloodraven would know.

I think the HM is Benjen, anyway, because of other signs and logic, but knowledge of the miller's boy would be compatible with them.

If Benjen is there , he's there to be the Stark in Winterfell (if only temporarily) and to spearhead northern resistance. He would have known that Bran and Rickon are alive through Bloodraven and the Children..It's possible that the paternity of the miller's boy came up as a side detail to that information, but it wouldn't be necessary to his mission. If he knows about the boy, Umber could know.. but Rowan still may not.

It's doubtful Benjen would know who Mance is because he says they never met, and at the time he would have been coming south, Mance and Jon would both have been north of the wall. But even if he and /or the Clans could figure out that "Abel" was Mance, they'd know he was sent by Jon , and as much as they may want Jon to know eventually about Bran and Rickon ( and perhaps, want him to be the Stark in WF himself, at some point ) it would be important that he not find out at a time when he might think he'd need to take action to save them. (This was certainly the case when Coldhands made Sam promise not to tell about Bran.)

So.. while I think the resistance did help Mance to get in to WF (Manderly's absent singers) and it knows at least what Mance's rescue plan is... Mance would not be trusted enough to be told the full plans of the resistance and may not know about Bran and Rickon.

I don't buy the "Theon Durden" hypothesis either (for a number of reasons), but I think even that is more plausible than Septon Chayle.

ETA: you'd think by the way that Theon keeps thinking of the mother (who he never even thinks of by name), that if he knew he'd killed his own child, he might be a little more anguished about it, remember more detail about the boy , not just that he wasn't Bran or Rickon.

You'd think she might have told when she was pleading for the boy's lives , but we see no sign of it in Theon's memories. (In that case, I think Ramsay might have called him kinslayer , if only in private )

[mbuehner]

Good call on the BloodRaven/Bran connection- given Theon's current circumstances its a really interesting idea. And connecting with Benjen makes sense too. We have to consider that the series is coming to a climax pretty quick here, these long dangling threads need to start coming together and combining awfully quick.

Something I've been considering is a Theon-Durden Lite scenario, wherein Theon doesnt have a full blown disassociation, but has just repressed this particular thing as it is the most heinous of his crimes (and once Ramsay took off his little guy, it was that much worse as his line was ended).

One last possibility- there is someone in a position to know about the Kinslaying, Ramsay Bolton. He was with Rodrik Cassel when they visited the miller, and a point was made of Cassel spending extra time with the boys (of course Cassel had no sons so that explains it just as well or better). Anyway, Ramsay is a notorious big mouth. So lets say the information goes Miller's Wife->Ramsay->Littler Walder->Spear WIfe/Washer woman->Mance->Northmen. And soon after, Ramsay murders LW after being scolded by Roose about the consequences of the true story coming out. Just a thought.

[bemused]

Hmmm... this is the possibility that comes to me about kinslaying / the miller's son : If it's true, it will become known and this would be another horrible blow for Theon. There may be a hint that there is still something devastating to come for him in his conversation with Rowan in the godswood , when he says he's suffered and she replies,"Not enough".

Of course it would seem to mean the end of his line.. In fact, if he ever thinks about that, he must already believe it, because he never gives much thought to future offspring , or any thought of a bastard here or there, that we know of .. at least, not in ADWD.

But I feel that he most likely has a child with the daughter of the captain of the Myraham...

Theon Greyjoy pushed her hand aside and climbed off the bunk. “My place is Pyke, and yours is on this ship.”

“I can’t stay here now.”

He laced up his breeches. “Why not?”

“My father,” she told him. “Once you’re gone, he’ll punish me, milord. He’ll call me names and hit me.”

Theon swept his cloak off its peg and over his shoulders. “Fathers are like that,” he admitted as he pinned the folds with a silver clasp. “Tell him he should be pleased. As many times as I’ve fucked you, you’re likely with child. It’s not every man who has the honor of raising a king’s bastard.” She looked at him stupidly, so he left her there.

The Myraham's home port was Oldtown and in AFFC, through Sam's POV, we read.

At the Weeping Dock, he watched two acolytes help an old man into a boat for the short voyage to the Bloody Isle. A young mother climbed in after him, a babe not much older than Gilly’s squalling in her arms.

I think the "Bloody Isle" carries the same connotation as "the bloody bed" - childbirth, and perhaps some sort of refuge / confinement for cast off daughters with bastards. (??)

The timeline would definitely work, and even if the captain turned out to be more kind than she imagined, she could hardly continue to serve as his cabin boy with a baby to care for.

If this is true, I think it will become known, too.. salvaging Theon's line and easing his pain, somewhat. (I just hope it isn't revealed because she and the baby fall into Euron's hands...)

ETA: We know she was a virgin when Theon took her , and with her father's attitude, she's unlikely to have slept with anyone else in the relevant time period. The captain obviously felt he had to play along with Balon's son , but from Theon's opinion of her (plump, poor skin, not very young and none too bright), it's unlikely there was a queue of nobles lusting after her.

[Lady of the Falls]

The Kinslayer argument is important to what is happening in WF, whoever the hooded man is. Consider:

- Nobody ever calls Theon a kinslayer until the HM does, followed almost immediately by Rowan the Spearwife, and Mors the Northman.

- Rowan specifically addresses the argument Theon makes that Bran and Rickon werent his blood, "“Stark’s boys were never brothers to you, aye. We know.”

- A lot of people argue she meant they werent brothers to you, but we consider them brothers and you a kinslayer. This should be rejected because Kinslaying in Westeros is deadly, deadly serious business. We heard a lot of stories about how even inadvertent kinslayers are damned by the gods in the worst possible ways. People are terrified at the prospect. Just being best friends or brought up in the same household could never cut it. Westros is a violent place, if every knight that considered another knight so close as to be brothers was damned for killing him on the battlefield, nothing would ever get done. No, kinslaying is killing ones own blood, hence the 'magic' set in motion against the perpetrator.

Now if you buy that argument, the millers boy is the only one we know of that might qualify. Theon could have been 15 or 16 and sired the boy, which is entirely plausible.

That being said- the three people who called Theon a Kinslayer at the end of Dance is critical. You have:

1) An unknown Hooded Man who appears to be new to WF (or at least in hiding).

2) A spearwife inside WF.

3) Mors Umber

The fact that these 3 seem to share this information is key. Combine that with the beating drums and trumpets seeming to be a signal, Mors people just happening to be at the right place and time at the walls of WF to retrieve fake Arya and Theon, and you have yourself a neat little conspiracy. Somehow, and for some reason, information is being shared between Northmen and Mance.

As to who the hooded man is, the Law of Conservation of Characters suggest it is likely the person who had knowledge of the Kinslaying. That means someone local to WF, or someone who could have been told. Chayle probably qualifies due to proximity. I just dont know that he has the swagger the HM displayed, he seems like a fighting man.

Another person in my mind is Galbart Glover- via information from Patrek Mallister who chatted with Theon about the millers wife he himself was bedding (surely Theon would share his own story- and note shortly after this he told the ship captains daughter she was probably with child, it may have been on his mind). Glover could galvanize the remaining northman into action if he is carrying Rob's will. His brother or Manderly could inform him about the murdered miller boys and they could put it all together, now everybody involved in the conspiracy knows the Stark boys werent killed, the Miller boys were, and one was TGs son. Also Glover needs Theon alive- his son is being held hostage by Theon's mothers family. A neat coincidence. How Mance and the SWs fit into that is beyond me- but Glover might have insisted they get him out of WF too for his familys sake.

Benjin is interesting. He could have the knowledge, and more importantly he most easily bridges all of the people in the conspiracy. He would recognize Mance, which brings them into the conspiracy. He knows WF as well as anyone. Northmen would rally to him and cooperate. I suspect basically all the Northmen that arent Boltons are involved in this, even Barbrey (I suspect she's pulling a Snape, perhaps sharing Roose's bed).

As an aside- also note who doesnt call Theon a Kinslayer- anyone in Stannis's camp. This strongly suggests he is NOT involved in any conspiracy.

I like your considerations, i'll add that the wildlings consider their village folk to be kin, like Ygritte told Jon (in aSoS) when he ask if she hooked up w/Longspear. She said that's disgusting and would you hook up w/your sister......you know the rest. Their must be more to come because I really don't get the whole kinslayer thing cuz it's true technically he'snot kin to Bran and Rickon. Thought it is atrocious that he "killed" them.