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Slayer of Lies

Septon Chayle is the Hooded Man in WF (Theon I Spoilers)

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I believe Hodor took the fourth sword from the old King on the way out..at Bran's insistence.

This has been discussed on previous incarnations of an HM thread. ( I remember , because I was one of the ones who was corrected about Bran's party taking 4 swords , not three ;) )

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It's a decent try but I don't buy it.If you've been thrown down a well,you probably need to be more adept at surviving long falls and climbing high,slippery walls than swimming.

The rest of the OP makes extremely tenuous connections at best.Besides,Septons don't go round murdering people,it's against their religion.

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I believe Hodor took the fourth sword from the old King on the way out..at Bran's insistence.

This has been discussed on previous incarnations of an HM thread. ( I remember , because I was one of the ones who was corrected about Bran's party taking 4 swords , not three ;) )

Yes, that is the case.

Here is a bit from Bran's first POV in ASoS:

He is not going to stop, Bran realized. "Hodor," he said, "why don't you go outside and train with your sword?"

The stableboy had forgotten about his sword, but now he remembered. "Hodor!" he burped. He went for his blade. They had three tomb swords taken from the crypts of Winterfell where Bran and his brother Rickon had hidden from Theon Greyjoy's ironmen. Bran claimed his uncle Brandon's sword, Meera the one she found upon the knees of his grandfather Lord Rickard. Hodor's blade was much older, a huge heavy piece of iron, dull from centuries of neglect and well spotted with rust. He could swing it for hours at a time. There was a rotted tree near the tumbled stones that he had hacked half to pieces.

So that is three swords. The last Bran POV from ACoK also mentioned them taking three swords:

Osha carried her long oaken spear in one hand and the torch in the other. A naked sword hung down her back, one of the last to bear Mikken's mark. He had forged it for Lord Eddard's tomb, to keep his ghost at rest. But with Mikken slain and the ironmen guarding the armory, good steel had been hard to resist, even if it meant grave-robbing. Meera had claimed Lord Rickard's blade, though she complained that it was too heavy. Brandon took his namesake's, the sword made for the uncle he had never known. He knew he would not be much use in a fight, but even so the blade felt good in his hand.

ACoK omits the sword taken by Hodor. ASoS omits the sword taken by Osha. Together they account for the swords noted as missing by Barbrey Dustin and Theon.

Chayle may still be the HM, but I don't think he ever spent time in the crypts...

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I could see Chayle and Tallhart behind it because if Chayle was Cat's septon then they could have been close and Cat was thought to have been killed with Robb at the Red Wedding in which the Freys and Boltons took part in and there are Boltons and Freys in Winterfell so they could be getting back at them because of their loyalty to the starks.

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I think the most likely options are Benjen or The Blackfish... and I think this is given away in the line:

"Theon Turncloak. Theon Kinslayer.”

The person talking is close enough to Theon to recognize him as part of the Stark family unit, because they too are part of that same family unit.

Benjen's case is strengthened by "There is always a Stark in Winterfell."

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I think the most likely options are Benjen or The Blackfish... and I think this is given away in the line:

"Theon Turncloak. Theon Kinslayer.”

The person talking is close enough to Theon to recognize him as part of the Stark family unit, because they too are part of that same family unit.

Benjen's case is strengthened by "There is always a Stark in Winterfell."

I feel Theon wouldn't have even bothered reaching for his dagger with either of those people. It certainly wouldn't have done him any good if either of those 2 were the hm and actually tried to kill Theon.

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It's a decent try but I don't buy it.If you've been thrown down a well,you probably need to be more adept at surviving long falls and climbing high,slippery walls than swimming.

The rest of the OP makes extremely tenuous connections at best.Besides,Septons don't go round murdering people,it's against their religion.

tell that to Septon Utt

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Nice theory, clues are there! I like all the speculations though, Glover, Benjen etc. not big on the Theon Durden one, though, just don't think Theon/Reek can split to murderer/meek. Obviously, the spear wives have been killing machines. And Big Walder killed Little Walder, It Is Known!

Will we get answers to all these little mysteries?

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tell that to Septon Utt

I suppose I could tell it to the Faith Militant too,though I'm still not sure how anyone can swim from a cold water well to a hot spring pool.

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I suppose I could tell it to the Faith Militant too,though I'm still not sure how anyone can swim from a cold water well to a hot spring pool.

The pool is cool. It is known (and quoted in the OP).

FWIW, I'm revising the OP to include several people's key observations and feedback. Hope to have something more encompassing up by EOW.

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Yes, that is the case.

Here is a bit from Bran's first POV in ASoS:

So that is three swords. The last Bran POV from ACoK also mentioned them taking three swords:

ACoK omits the sword taken by Hodor. ASoS omits the sword taken by Osha. Together they account for the swords noted as missing by Barbrey Dustin and Theon.

Chayle may still be the HM, but I don't think he ever spent time in the crypts...

Nice catch! Thanks! That accounts for all four missing swords then.

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Nice catch! Thanks! That accounts for all four missing swords then.

FWIW, Theon does wonder whether it was four or five swords in the TWOW preview chapter. While it's definitely excellent work by several of you to dig all these passages up, it's at least possible that there is still one unaccounted for sword.

Maddening as that is.

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I liked a lot the idea of Chayle surviving, I think it is possible. Many other connections are too stretched. Why would a septon start killing people?? he is like a priest, it doesn't make sense. Little Walder was killed by Big Walder, the others were killed by the spearwives, it's as simple as that. Benfred Tallhart is also dead, he is one of the most important men in the North, do you think we would just hear nothing about him? No, i doubt that, if he had survived he would have been probably taken to the Iron Islands as a slave/hostage. But even if I don't agree with most of the points made in the OP, the simple notion that Chayle is alive makes him a strong contender.

I never liked the ideas that the HM were Mance, Benjen, even Glover, both of them. Robett and Galbart are both extremely well known in the North, why would they risk something like that?? anyone could recognize them and it would be the end of them. I'm sure that Robett is near Winterfell with an army, but not inside. The thing that is almost decisive for this Chayle theory is that he was raised near the White Knife. If he survived, what would he do? he is not a fighting men, the little boys are thought dead, he would return home... in Manderly lands!! He's not any septon, he's a Northerner, raised on Manderly lands, so he's probabyl extremely faithful to the Starks. He would be willing to help the Starks in any way he could. This way we even have a way for him to enter Winterfell... he simply came with the Manderly men. He wears a cloak and dagger simply because he needed to pose as a soldier. The way he dresses can also explain why Theon doesn't recognize him. If you see someone dressed like a priest or a monk everyday and then he wears something completely different would you know him? Many wouldn't, but Theon's subconscious might.

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The pool is cool. It is known (and quoted in the OP).

FWIW, I'm revising the OP to include several people's key observations and feedback. Hope to have something more encompassing up by EOW.

Correct sir.I'd lazily thought all the pools were warm water.Whilst looking this up I noticed in Bran's climbing chapter he spots some maids gossiping beside a "washing well".Don't know if this helps.

I remain to be convinced of this theory (I'm a Liddle promoter),but I look forward to your update.

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redriver, just a point on your comment about warm and cool water which I see you re posted on. There are lines, actual visible lines in water sometimes. They can be best observed in caves in Mexico, where the water go's from fresh to salt instantly. This same thing happens in the ocean all over the world, it plays a big part in submarine warfare. There is a layer I am not re looking this up to make sure I have the term right but I believe it is called the Thermoclyne, again thats from memory. The point is the water changes in temp by like 8 degrees instantly and sonor works differently above and below. Just wanted to add in that you can have warm water pools and cool water pools, even if they are connected.

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redriver, just a point on your comment about warm and cool water which I see you re posted on. There are lines, actual visible lines in water sometimes. They can be best observed in caves in Mexico, where the water go's from fresh to salt instantly. This same thing happens in the ocean all over the world, it plays a big part in submarine warfare. There is a layer I am not re looking this up to make sure I have the term right but I believe it is called the Thermoclyne, again thats from memory. The point is the water changes in temp by like 8 degrees instantly and sonor works differently above and below. Just wanted to add in that you can have warm water pools and cool water pools, even if they are connected.

I don't doubt any of this.

My understanding of underwater tunnels and caves is that they are extremely difficult to swim and navigate even with modern diving equipment.Dangers include extreme disorientation and the "bends" amongst others.

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Nice theory, clues are there! I like all the speculations though, Glover, Benjen etc. not big on the Theon Durden one, though, just don't think Theon/Reek can split to murderer/meek. Obviously, the spear wives have been killing machines. And Big Walder killed Little Walder, It Is Known!

Will we get answers to all these little mysteries?

I have always subscribed to the "Theon Durden" theory but I don't believe Theon/Reek is/are responsible for any of the mysterious deaths in Winterfell.

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