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Slayer of Lies

Septon Chayle is the Hooded Man in WF (Theon I Spoilers)

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Passages to cold pools too,possibly.But no evidence they are wide enough to swim.As I referred to in previous posts,even if these passages exist they would be extremely difficult for a modern diver with up to date equipment and back up to negotiate,never mind simply a strong swimmer.

If the well is sufficiently deep the fall and impact would have killed him,or rendered him unable to swim.

Actually, if the assumption is correct and the well has underground connection with the pool, then water levels in both would be equal. Think of it as liquid dynamics in the interconnected tubes. The liquid will always level in both tubes.

So, transcribing this to Winterfell, the water level in the pool and the well will be the same if they are interconnected, they will also be very close to the ground level - say 0.5 meters below ground to be generous. The well shaft protruding above the ground will add another 1.5 meters, so Chayle would have to fall not more than 2 meters to hit the water surface of the well, which by all measures is survivable not only for a swimmer, but also for anyone remotely knowledgeable of how to float.

Chayle's swimming comes into play if he were to dive through the connecting passage, which makes his survival all so much plausible. He would also not need to dive deep, as all he needs to do is find where the ground stops and touch the ceiling of the passage while swimming towards the pool. One other thing, being a swimmer Chayle may be aware that the similar water levels between the well and the pool are indicative of the connecting water passage between the too. And finally, him being a librarian of Winterfell, who is to say that he did not discover the water passage in one of the books?

Edit: Just found a nice picture demonstrating how well/pool connections work:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Water_well_types_wiki.svg

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^^^^

Nice.

Additionally – if anything – we have proof that WF is by no means level. From Bran II, AGOT chapter 8:

The builders had not even leveled the earth; there were hills and valleys behind the walls of Winterfell. There was a covered bridge that went from the fourth floor of the bell tower across to the second floor of the rookery. Bran knew about that. And he knew you could get inside the inner wall by the south gate, climb three floors and run all the way around Winterfell through a narrow tunnel in the stone, and then come out on ground level at the north gate, with a hundred feet of wall looming over you. Even Maester Luwin didn't know that, Bran was convinced.

So if the top of the well is higher in elevation than the pool in the godswood (which it would have to be by some amount or there wouldn’t be much of a “fall” to speak of), then the part of the theory where Chayle survives the fall and pops out of the godswood is pretty easy to accept. Particularly if the fall is only a couple of stories or so, and into water besides.

ETA: If the wiki map can be believed (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/File:Winterfell_map.png), and it is assumed the well Chayle was thrown down is somewhat central to WF, it might not be all that far to the godswood. Also, I don't necessarily believe there's a network of underground "pipes" connecting the well to the godswood where someone would have to do 300M stretches underwater, but rather perhaps something more like an underground river, at least in parts, where one could actually poke their head up from time to time. But that's all entirely speculative, right?

To that end, since we’re dealing with fiction, if GRRM wants Chayle to survive a fall from a well, he will.

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Do we know how far the well in this scenario is from the pool in the Godswood? Just curious.

Not exactly, but I just added a blurb about distance between the well and the godswood to my previous post.

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If the map is to be believed, the distance between the pool and the well is about 60 - 70 meters. It seems the well is located between the kitchens and the library tower and behind the kennels. Its proximity to the pool is also indicative of relatively similar ground elevation. I also don't believe there is any piping involved, just a subterranean lake which may have formed through flooding of the underground caverns. Initial access to the caves could have been the pit now forming the pool, this is largely why it's "bottomless". If we are also to believe the way CoTF caving structure works, then it seems they prefer to nest directly underneath the weirwood groves, so that there actually may be another indirect reference to subterranean cave/lake system underneath the Godswood. Also, I don't believe the elevation levels inside WInterfell are extreme, there may be hills and "fells" but largely, the ground of the castle will be within the 2 stories clearance as described by Bran.

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you are leaving out how a septon with no military training or skill at arms manages to kill several men - also why were the men left naked and why was Yellow Dicks penis crammed in his mouth so hard that it broke some teeth. Are you saying Chayle is a Catholic Priest? Seriously though why are the men naked? Isnt it clear that the washer women seduce them, diarming and relaxing them, and then kill? With the exception of Walder which I believe the other walder did him in.

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you are leaving out how a septon with no military training or skill at arms manages to kill several men - also why were the men left naked and why was Yellow Dicks penis crammed in his mouth so hard that it broke some teeth. Are you saying Chayle is a Catholic Priest? Seriously though why are the men naked? Isnt it clear that the washer women seduce them, diarming and relaxing them, and then kill? With the exception of Walder which I believe the other walder did him in.

Read the OP again, which has been revised. Indeed it is pretty clear that the deaths of the men prior to Little Walder was the work of the washerwomen, while LW's killer is most likely Big Walder. The hooded man, thus, whoever he may be, is only an accomplice at best, or otherwise he is a huge red herring.

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I must disagree.. the only death I'd maybe suspect the washerwomen of is the "grizzled" Frey squire ( naked in the lichyard ). Most ( if not all )are Ramsay's work . He hates waiting wants Roose to act , and wants to get back to his favourite pastimes.. I think he figured out that Yellow Dick was reporting to Roose..and of course Big Walder killed Little Walder , but with Roose's blessing, and maybe help.. Unlike the rest of Ramsay's men , Little Walder was not Roose's..and was eager to be Ramsay's favourite.

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It seems to me the mist likely murderer of the Walder boy was his cousin. I think one of them claimed he WOULD become head of the house Frey, although the other was ahead in line of succession.

The Freys are certain to turn on one another - there are too many of them

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Every chapter is titled for its POV character. Why would this chapter be different? Theon is the "Ghost of Winterfell. I was the first, on this site, to call the Theon Durden theory all those years ago when the book was released, and I still hold to it.

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It's not The Ghost of Winterfell, it's "A Ghost in Winterfell" .In Theon's mind , there are many , and of different sorts. Winterfell was full of ghosts , and he was one of them ( as in a ghost of his former self ) . Bit there are all the people he associates with WF.. who have died in WF and elsewhere..at his hands , or at others'. The old kings..etc.etc.

I think he thinks the HM is a real ghost , not the kind he feels himself to be. ..and that doesn't identify the HM as the murderer , anyway. Look to the psychopath formerly known as Reek , Ramsay.

However , I don't think the HM is Septon Chayle , either. He just shows us the strange way greendreams can work..

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To each his own. I think the Theon Durden theory is cool. I think it would show that Theon has a side that wants to redeem himself. Every other chapter is titled for the POV character. Why would this chapter be any different? I think that would be dumb. He could have just titled it Reek or Theon, and the chapter could have still had the "ghost". I know this book is full of magic and fantasy, but I really don't want it to be an actual ghost. And I don't want it to be some auxillary character. Theon, IMO, is the best choice. I doubt we will get a definitive answer though.

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It's not a real ghost and not Theon , but someone Theon thinks is dead.

also, ( maybe more importantly) not only someone who Theon thinks is dead, but someone whose death Theon would be responsible for.

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To each his own. I think the Theon Durden theory is cool. I think it would show that Theon has a side that wants to redeem himself. Every other chapter is titled for the POV character. Why would this chapter be any different? I think that would be dumb. He could have just titled it Reek or Theon, and the chapter could have still had the "ghost". I know this book is full of magic and fantasy, but I really don't want it to be an actual ghost. And I don't want it to be some auxillary character. Theon, IMO, is the best choice. I doubt we will get a definitive answer though.

*Like*

I do think we'll get a definitive answer, though. Even if it's not in the books but from Martin being asked about it sometime.

It's not a real ghost and not Theon , but someone Theon thinks is dead.

Just my feeling, of course, but if this is the case it strikes me as exceedingly strange that Theon/Reek doesn't say or think anything to this effect - even though the Hooded Man asks him how it is that he still breathes? I mean, there's no thought or statement like "I could ask the same of you" or "I thought you were dead" :dunno:

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to the OP, You Ser are on Crack.

The HM is Raynald Westerling, He is the only person that we know of that would have it out for the Boltons, and not really give a shit about Theon, as a person. His loyalty was to Robb, not the Starks, or the North.

After he Freed Grey Wind, and jumped into the river, he was helped by the Crannogmen. That's where he has been the last year. He saw Theon, going in the the towers at Moat Cailin, and march the Ironmen out into their deaths, which is why he calls him Kinslayer.

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