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Slayer of Lies

Septon Chayle is the Hooded Man in WF (Theon I Spoilers)

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Theon killed Little Walder. He did it out of guilt concerning his botched attempt to kill Bran and Rickon. Little Walder was hated by Bran. He was also hated by Theon. Ergo, Theon killed him under the influence of Bran, because he wanted to make amends for what happened at Winterfell. Theon is essentially a good character; he is a fuckup, but he tries to do the right thing. Ironically, this means killing a child, but no-one ever said that Theon is mostways sane.


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the murders were committed by mance and the washer women. Walder was killed by walder - the blood on him is evidence enough. The hooded man is unimportant.

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to the OP, You Ser are on Crack.

Don't hate the poster, hate the game.

It's not a real ghost and not Theon , but someone Theon thinks is dead.

As POV chapters are consistently named after how the POV sees themselves at that time (particularly in AFFC and ADWD), I think it seems easy to agree on the fact that Theon views himself as a “ghost,” or else the chapter would be called something else.

Additionally, citations like, “Winterfell was full of ghosts” and “There are ghosts in Winterfell, and I am one of them” work not only to solidify the above, but also illustrate that Theon sees people which quite likely meet similar criteria by which he see himself.

This either means he is seeing people (1) that he believes to be dead, or (2) that meet some other criteria consistent with his propensity to think of them as “ghosts.” Or perhaps even both.

Given Theon’s compromised mental state, and considering that additional criteria might be based in the author’s typical uses of symbolism, the end of Dying of the Light

…provides a window into GRRM’s historical usage of the word/concept “ghost,” and how it seems to act not only as a an insinuation of places where death has occurred, but as symbolism for a sort of rebirth or reincarnation where – although one has not technically died – they have died in a “poetic” sense, and can thereby forge a new beginning… perhaps not that dissimilar from

the Hound’s “death” (which is also largely symbolic in nature).

To get to the meat of this potential connection, in the end of DotL, Dirk basically meets a Hooded-Man-like figure who – although not hypercritical to the overall story – serves as a “spiritual guide” of a kind leading up to the final moments of the story. Further, he is a sympathetic minor character who uses the word “ghosts” several different times to refer to himself, Dirk and other characters in the DotL universe… and seemingly not in a literal, transitive manner.

So if one concludes that it is possible that a re-visitation of this scene played muse in a way to the HM encounter in ADWD, DotL

…might provide further insight into the prospective symbolism behind Theon’s musings, and possibly even thicken the stew regarding Theon seeing people he believes to be “dead.”

Most importantly to this point, if GRRM is using “extracurricular” Westerosi history such as The Hedge Knight and The Princess and the Queen to set up ASOIAF foreshadowing and backstory, it’s not that much of a stretch to also conclude that he might harken back to other scenes he’s written – and likes – for general ASOIAF inspiration. After all, it sells books. To that end, GRRM might even “steal” from himself, or at least reuse language he likes in similar ways to generate similar reader reactions.

Therefore, if the Hooded Man encounter bears any connection whatsoever to the DotL encounter, it’s also not a stretch to posit that the HM encounter might be the beginning of the further fleshing out of a minor ASOIAF character (as touched on this interview, in regards to Bronn)…

…and also one that is a spiritual guide, or will reveal himself as a font of information in a critical time…

…such as Septon Chayle.

Anyhow, as someone who just recently finished rereading DotL after a reread of ADWD, I certainly draw natural connections/parallels between these two “HM scenes,” leading me further down the path that GRRM might be hat-tipping himself (again), that the HM may very well be revealed as a minor known character, and that his true identity and purpose are likely not ones that most readers saw coming.

For me, Septon Chayle still fits those criteria, and it will be interesting to see whether this speculation plays out.

P.S. I’m sure there will be those who think of this observation as “grasping.” However, my original DotL read happened after my first ADWD read, and I simply happened to note that these two scenes – and the use of the word “ghosts” in particular – were eerily similar, and very intriguing.

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I can't get behind this theory, or any theory about who the hooded man might be as I don't really think it matters or that he's meant to be anyone revelatory. Also, what will you people do with your lives when the series is over?

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I can't get behind this theory, or any theory about who the hooded man might be as I don't really think it matters or that he's meant to be anyone revelatory. Also, what will you people do with your lives when the series is over?

continue to dream

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I can't get behind this theory, or any theory about who the hooded man might be as I don't really think it matters or that he's meant to be anyone revelatory. Also, what will you people do with your lives when the series is over?

Some will continue to find insane means of defending Cat's stupidity I think. :bang:

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I can't get behind this theory, or any theory about who the hooded man might be as I don't really think it matters or that he's meant to be anyone revelatory. Also, what will you people do with your lives when the series is over?

Reread the series every five to ten years. Read everything of George R. R. Martin's (even the why oh why did you have to do it too vampire stories). Talk about how Jon Snow could have avoided getting stabbed. After twenty years, probably view all of this as asinine crap and start reading mysteries. It's a middle-aged thing.

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Does anyone realise that Martin writes about 100 sentences a day, whenever he can bothered. I love the man, but does he think he'll live to be a hundred. Even Frank Herbert actually did finish the Dune series off despite the fact he was dying of cancer. I think that we should actually finish the series off ourselves in the time its going to take for him to write a new installment for the thing.

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When I read FFC and DWD, I can't help but think about the 5 years gap, and what the story would have looked like with it.

In the case of the hooded man of Winterfell, I always thought that it was originally a role planned for Arya, but, heh, not possible in this version... :dunce:

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“Suddenly the wine turned bitter in his mouth, and when he looked up from his cup he saw that he was dining with the dead.”

Excerpt From: George R. R. Martin. “A Clash of Kings.” Bantam Books, 2008-10-11. iBooks.

This material may be protected by copyright.

“Jory Cassel and Fat Tom, Porther and Cayn and Hullen the master of horse, and all the others who had ridden south to King’s Landing never to return. Mikken and Chayle sat together, one dripping blood and the other water. Benfred Tallhart and his Wild Hares filled most of a table. The miller’s wife was there as well, and Farlen, even the wildling Theon had killed in the wolfswood the day he had saved Bran’s life.

But there were others with faces he had never known in life, faces he had seen only in stone. The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore”“could only be Lyanna. Her brother Brandon stood beside her, and their father Lord Rickard just behind. Along the walls figures half-seen moved through the shadows, pale shades with long grim faces. The sight of them sent fear shivering through Theon sharp as a knife. And then the tall doors opened with a crash, and a freezing gale blew down the hall, and Robb came walking out of the night. Grey Wind stalked beside, eyes burning, and man and wolf alike bled from half a hundred savage wounds.”

Chapter 56/Theon in Clash

Theon is having Weirwood Bed dreams here and it is notable foreshadowing of Robb's death. Chayle is seated with all the other dearly departed. I hate to douse a way cool theory but this is textual evidence that Chayle is, in fact, dead. He cannot be the Hooded Man. It saddens me. :(

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Glad you enjoy the theory!

Check the OP again. Your quote appears there too, and it's explained that - after the HM encounter - Theon's musings all exclude Chayle (though many others are mentioned) making it possible that Theon no longer thinks of Chayle as dead because he ran into him on a walk.

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All "ghost" means is, just like Arya's chapter in Harrenhal – where there is also a "ghost" – that there's a presence felt by the people inside due to the unexplained murders and disappearances, lending weight to the legends surrounding the castle(s).

When Arya prays to the Old Gods for help, Jaqen appears. When Theon prays at the weirwood, the spearwives appear in answer.

It also has significance in that Theon is shedding his old personality and becoming Reek. But the old Theon is growing stronger again seeing the chance of escape. So Theon's "ghost" is haunting him again.

EDIT: also forgot to mention the missing swords in the Crypts. This is another "ghost" – the ghosts of the "dead" Stark children, not to mention several lines alluding to Ned's ghost no longer being "at rest" (let alone Brandon's and Rickard's) because it's missing Mikken's blade that was made specifically for Ned's tomb.

That's all there is to it IMO. I don't think the Hooded Man is a hallucination, or any kind of supernatural visitation or reincarnation of Winterfell's dead. Ghost really just alludes to "a presence of the past".

The HM is Raynald Westerling

He saw Theon, going in the the towers at Moat Cailin, and march the Ironmen out into their deaths, which is why he calls him Kinslayer.

Perhaps, but would that make Theon a kinslayer? This part seems a stretch. It'd have to be his blood family. I speculate it's the miller's boys, personally. But RW wouldn't know about that.

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And I'm not so sure it wasn't just Ramsay that killed Little Walder (as analysed by Bran Vras in his Winterfell Huis Clos). The remaining murders were, I think, a combination (in conspiracy if not deed) of the spearwives, Mance, Manderleys and the Hooded Man.

Not to mention the outside murders, e.g. the Frey trap. Clearly someone outside was working with someone inside as well. Many "ghosts"!

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I think the OP was well thoughtout and a possible contender for the HM. You made me rethink my position for a minute. But my bet is that it is still Harwin - and based on a few of the arguments you use in your OP too.

GRRM also gave us a big clue when he had Tom of Sevens (lone BWB spy) hanging out at Riverrun talking to Jaime.....and then we have the HM talking to Theon at WF.....plus if you reread the LS/BWB parts you notice that certain members of the BWB are not always around either (like what happened to Ned Dayne?).

Harwin fits the bill too -

1. he knew Theon and knew Theon's close relationship to the Stark kids (hense turncoat and kinslayer). (I think that even Ser Rodrik states something like the Starks treated Theon like kin before Theon beheads him- which made me think that most of the WFservants think down these lines.)

2 Harwin knew how to get to WF and the ways in and out of the castle, (His father was the Master of Horse and Harwin lived at WF all his life)

3. Theon would not have been threatened by him because he was a Stark servant and Theon may think of him as a ghost as well because Theon assumes Harwin is dead (becuase he went to KL with Ned)

4. When Harwin is with Arya, he was always laughing at her (goes to your cheerful nature comment)

5. One of Harwins talents was being an expert horserider - he could easily get to WF faster than many

6. He's a Northener (could easily blend in)

7. The mentioning of the "Gods" could also be refering to the Old Gods

8. Harwin has seen Beric Dondardin killed and resurrected many times from violent injuries; Theon loosing his fingers wouldn't be that disgusting to him, he might even laugh.

9. Plus Harwin knows what Arya looks like; remember the BWB lost Arya, it would make sense that they would need to find out that this was actually her at WF. Plus if the BWB have to rescue Arya for LS, then there is a good chance that Harwin would be the one to help get Arya out

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You know, I hadn't thought about how the brotherhood would react to finding out "Arya" was being forced to marry Ramsey. I like your ideas, Little and Less.

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Some will continue to find insane means of defending Cat's stupidity I think. :bang:

Stupidity of Cat's insanity. She had gone very far down the crazy road that her sister was on, before she saw Rob get killed, and died herself. But at last that is for another thread.

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I think the OP was well thoughtout and a possible contender for the HM. You made me rethink my position for a minute. But my bet is that it is still Harwin - and based on a few of the arguments you use in your OP too.

GRRM also gave us a big clue when he had Tom of Sevens (lone BWB spy) hanging out at Riverrun talking to Jaime.....and then we have the HM talking to Theon at WF.....plus if you reread the LS/BWB parts you notice that certain members of the BWB are not always around either (like what happened to Ned Dayne?).

Harwin fits the bill too -

1. he knew Theon and knew Theon's close relationship to the Stark kids (hense turncoat and kinslayer). (I think that even Ser Rodrik states something like the Starks treated Theon like kin before Theon beheads him- which made me think that most of the WFservants think down these lines.)

2 Harwin knew how to get to WF and the ways in and out of the castle, (His father was the Master of Horse and Harwin lived at WF all his life)

3. Theon would not have been threatened by him because he was a Stark servant and Theon may think of him as a ghost as well because Theon assumes Harwin is dead (becuase he went to KL with Ned)

4. When Harwin is with Arya, he was always laughing at her (goes to your cheerful nature comment)

5. One of Harwins talents was being an expert horserider - he could easily get to WF faster than many

6. He's a Northener (could easily blend in)

7. The mentioning of the "Gods" could also be refering to the Old Gods

8. Harwin has seen Beric Dondardin killed and resurrected many times from violent injuries; Theon loosing his fingers wouldn't be that disgusting to him, he might even laugh.

9. Plus Harwin knows what Arya looks like; remember the BWB lost Arya, it would make sense that they would need to find out that this was actually her at WF. Plus if the BWB have to rescue Arya for LS, then there is a good chance that Harwin would be the one to help get Arya out

This is very good analysis, L&L, especially about fake Arya and Beric Dondarrion.

As much as the op makes sense, I would hesitate to think a minor character would be used in a sense and being resurrected or having a fake death. However, GRRM made some of those seemingly minor characters into very important characters. I never thought I would see Beric again after AGoT, or read from Aeron and Victarion's PoVs after ACoK. Besides, the fact that Theon does not count Septon Chayle as one of the ghosts is very interesting, although it may be because GRRM may have forgotten him as well as i did and pulled a Renly eyes/Jeyne hips thing again.

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Whilst we attach credence to the odd notion of a minor character swimming through underground tunnels to resurrect as the Hooded Man,we ignore evidence that we are given in the books.

And there is precious little evidence,but there is some,so why do we all ignore it?The evidence is glaring for those with eyes to see,or ears to hear.Mance Rayder does not arrive at Winterfell with what he left Castle Black with.

To paraphrase,because I don't have the books with me.Mance requested six,young and pretty spearwives from Mole's Town,he provided the names and Dolorous Ed did the rest and smuggled them out.

Abel arrives at Winterfell with a wife,sisters,daughters and *me old mother".Please tell me why we should ignore this and why no one else on the planet seems to have noticed it?

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