Septon Chayle is the Hooded Man in WF (Theon I Spoilers)

[Lost Melnibonean]

From the OP...

Next, why mention the gods, when Theon was ironborn, at least when he took WF? We know he has recently developed an appreciation for the old gods, although he may also be using language the recipient will appreciate.

All through the first two Theon chapters of Clash, Theon thought "gods," not "god."

[Lady of the Falls]

Plausible, but I'm a supporter to an extent of the Theon Durden theory. I'd always assumed that Theon committed at least one of the murders (Little Walder's) under the influence of Bran, and during a blackout where he was trying to re-establish his own identity. Little Walder would make an appropriate choice to sow division in Winterfell via his death, prior to Mance's plan and the siege, for both parties (Bran and Theon) because he was a character neither of them liked. Also, one of the only ones available the Reekster can plausibly overpower at this point. So, I originally thought the hooded figure was most likely Mance, though something didn't really add up there re: his familiarity with Theon and what he's doing at that point.

Mance was familiar w/ Theon the same way he was w/Jon, he was at WF when the king came north to ask Ned to be his hand. I feel the HM could'nt be Mance only because the hood implies he's not comfortable with people seeing his face for the most part. Where as no one knows what Mance looks like so it didn't matter if people saw him. I never felt Theon committed any of the murders, but I hope he did grow a pair back and take out someone.

[AdmiralKyrd]

1. It stands to reason the hooded man met with Roose and the other Lords after his encounter with Theon. The hooded man is walking towards the Hall with Bolton and the other Lords, while Theon is walking away. Theon makes a point to show the hooded man his hand. Awhile after this occurs, Roose summons Theon to see him and both Lady Dustin and Roose ask to see his hand, when they never had before.

So why would Septon Chayle want to see Roose Bolton? Wouldn't Chayle be somewhat aware the Boltons were the ones to put Winterfell to the torch and not the Ironborn? This information is a threat to Roose's hold on the North and therefore a threat to Chayle's life. I don't see the purpose for their meeting, and secondly, something the HM supposedly brought the council turned Lady Dustin completely white. What would Chayle know/have/do that would cause such a reaction?

2. I think too much is made of the "False is all you were" and that Asha didn't recognize Theon at first, therefore, anyone who recognizes Theon immediately must have known him really well.

a ) Theon is the one who drives "were" in the HM sentence, since Theon first said "I was Ironborn." The HM responding with "False is all you were" doesn't necessarily imply he knew Theon at all, its just a scornful remark and said in the past tense to reciprocate Theon's usage of was.

b ) Asha didn't recognize Theon because she was unprepared for what he looks like and she also has a warm spot in her heart for her brother. People don't tend to imagine people they like/love looking gross and ugly. She can't fathom that he would look like that because she doesn't picture him as a detestable human being. Other people traversing Winterfell and the North hate him so it stands to reason they would imagine Theon in their mind's eye as looking pitiful.

c ) Theon was just given a kraken brooch clip for the wedding ceremony a few weeks ago. People in Westeros tend to look for sigils when they run into people if they don't know the face. A kraken is instantly recognizable being from one of the great houses and Theon is the only Greyjoy one might expect to find in Winterfell at that point.

So if any Northman runs across a pitiful looking human being with a kraken pin, its fair to say they would identify that person as Theon Greyjoy.

Septon Chayle might be the hooded man but I think some of the points made as evidence-for could just as well be evidence-against.

[mattyp1186]

I have not read all the posts here, but I do subscribe to the theory theon is the hooded man...meaning it his split personality. I won't resell all the examples of why this is a popular theory, but I read the books the first time through, and then my company started making me travel 3 days a week, so I got the audio books to pass the time in my car.

In the chapters before theon is reek, the reader has a distinct voice for him. When he is reek, he has another voice. When Roose takes him to winterfell, he becomes theon again for the wedding. The reader uses his old theon voice for him. I have no idea if this is meant on purpose, but it think it is and it is meant because of his dual personality. I may be wrong, but just something I noticed

[Prince of the North]

I have not read all the posts here, but I do subscribe to the theory theon is the hooded man...meaning it his split personality. I won't resell all the examples of why this is a popular theory, but I read the books the first time through, and then my company started making me travel 3 days a week, so I got the audio books to pass the time in my car.

In the chapters before theon is reek, the reader has a distinct voice for him. When he is reek, he has another voice. When Roose takes him to winterfell, he becomes theon again for the wedding. The reader uses his old theon voice for him. I have no idea if this is meant on purpose, but it think it is and it is meant because of his dual personality. I may be wrong, but just something I noticed

Interesting! I never noticed that when listening to the ADWD audiobook so I'll have to pay better attention during my next listen. I'm with you, though, in that I think the Hooded Man is in Theon/Reek's head. I think another big clue that could suggest this is the changing Theon/Reek chapter names in ADWD. The first ones are simply named "Reek", then there are a few names like "The Turncloak", "The Prince of Winterfell", etc., and finally the chapter name is simply "Theon" ;)

[Bonifer Tasty]

oops

[bemused]

Theon does not have the symptoms of "split personality", disassociative disorder , or whatever posters want to call it. He always is aware of having to continue to adopt the Reek character , of having to bury any outward signs of Theon , for fear of further flaying and dismemberment from Ramsay. When he's continually saying " You have to know your name." It's a reminder to himself ,so he won't slip up. "Reek,Reek , it rhymes with.." is a gut wrenching version of the little word association tricks that people use every day. ( e.g., students trying to remember names or dates or a test)

When he hears "Theon" in the godswood he, recognises that the old gods know his name. He also says later , that the ghosts know his name.. that's ghosts - more than one. OK, he sees Bran's face on the weirwood and thinks Bran might be dead ( because he disappeared ).. but the only other person - or any other presence he senses - to call him by name , is the Hooded Man..and I think Theon thinks he's a ghost, as well.He may think he's a ghost for the same reason - because he disappeared. (Benjen disappeared, is presumed dead, would use "kinslayer", and definitely would have reason to be collaborating with the resistance against the Boltons.)

There's no evidence that the HM went to see Roose. Theon was walking for a few minutes before he met the HM and could have been going in any direction by the time they met ..the HM could have turned a corner himself, after passing Theon.. We know that there are numerous walkways dug out criss-crossing the yard and many other possible destinations.

Lady Barbrey is very serious and no doubt worried , because the Freys are pushing Roose to blame Manderly for the killings, and it's highly , highly likely that she is actually Manderly's ally. She finds a way to divert blame from him and Theon at the interrogation.

Septon Chayle is another of the least likely candidates for HM that I can imagine . He's a very ,very minor character with very little interaction with any main character. And there already exists a perfectly valid explanation for his being. He served to demonstrate how Jojen's greendreams work. Chayle said he would be unlikely to drown even if the sea did come to WF because he was a strong swimmer .. implying that therefore, Jojen's dreams could not be true. ... We see they are true, but symbolic ; the sea = the ironborn....And Chayle could drown because he was thrown down a well .

Now ,I can't buy all the stuff people have said about the well connecting to the godswood ,etc. etc. etc. Logic has to tell us that someone would have been sent down that well on a rope to retrieve the body.. the ironborn have to live there ,too. A body would not have been left to decompose in a well. If no body was found..don't you think that would have been troubling Theon's mind ?

[The Bedding]

What does it do for the story? It opens the gates for Stannis. It kills Ramsay. It explains where the missing swords from the crypts have gone.

Which swords? Were swords missing from the crypts other than those that Bran and company removed before their journey to the Wall?

[Bonifer Tasty]

Which swords? Were swords missing from the crypts other than those that Bran and company removed before their journey to the Wall?

I only remember that several were missing because they had rusted away with age, leaving only red marks on the stone. Ned notices this when he walks to Lyanna's tomb with Robert Baratheon.

[Aluminum Link]

I have not read all the posts here, but I do subscribe to the theory theon is the hooded man...meaning it his split personality. I won't resell all the examples of why this is a popular theory, but I read the books the first time through, and then my company started making me travel 3 days a week, so I got the audio books to pass the time in my car.

In the chapters before theon is reek, the reader has a distinct voice for him. When he is reek, he has another voice. When Roose takes him to winterfell, he becomes theon again for the wedding. The reader uses his old theon voice for him. I have no idea if this is meant on purpose, but it think it is and it is meant because of his dual personality. I may be wrong, but just something I noticed

That's interesting, but the natural question is then, whose voice is used for the Hooded Man, in your opinion?

[mattyp1186]

That's interesting, but the natural question is then, whose voice is used for the Hooded Man, in your opinion?

I will have to go back and listen. thats a good point.

[Berric_Dondiedagain]

I don't think being a Septon necessarily excludes you from murdering people - Even if you are not going to credit him with some kills-

The High Sparrow is arming believers-

The Warrior is one of the 7-

Was he always a Septon?

Is he still a Septon? could events have caused him to lose his faith or change his faith?

I enjoyed the read- much better than reading the 2345723409234096340957234057234069723096823496086 posts about R+L=J

based on what you have shown he is definitely a possible candidate in my opinion-

[Mithras]

Here is a thread where I argue that Septon Chayle is not necessarily dead and he might well be the Hooded Man.

[mattyp1186]

That's interesting, but the natural question is then, whose voice is used for the Hooded Man, in your opinion?

I went back and listened...the hooded mans voice is just a generic voice that no other character uses

[A Thousand Eyes]

Although many readers may be disappointed that the identity of the HM isn't a more prominent character such as Benjen or The Blackfish he doesn't have to be. Brynden Tully is almost certainly still alive and will make an appearance at some point in the upcoming novels, this doesn't have to be his reintroduction.

I look at the HM as a GRRM Easter Egg for the astute, much like the hound being on the quiet isle or Brienne carrying a repainted shield from House Whent and a sword reforged from Ice. The evidence is subtle but when compiled as it has by Slayer of Lies it becomes very persuasive.

I assumed the otherwise obscure proclamation of Septon Chayle being a strong swimmer was only meant to feed into his ironic death by drowning. Being a strong swimmer just as easily foreshadows a possible means for Septon Chayle to survive his predicament. There is precedence with both Davos and the Blackfish swimming/diving as a means of escaping. The reader is to assume Septon Chayle met his fate when he was cast down the well, if factual knowledge that the well and pool are connected via subterranean tunnels that is foiled.

Small note here but if the well was enclosed a body eventually will float to the surface as it begins to decompose and the body begins to fill with gas, if the well is your primary source of drinking water it only makes sense to retrieve the body before the well becomes poisoned. As Slayer of Lies also notes Gynir's corpse is retrieved from the well but Chayle's corpse never makes an appearance.

The omission of Septon Chayle from the dead after the HM meeting is very telling as well. This is by no means unintentional, however the unintentional typo referring to Septon Cellador as Septon Chayle that Bonifer Tasty expanded on does raise an eyebrow.

I have yet to find a counterpoint within this thread that can rule out Septon Chayle as the HM, until then he's my #1 candidate.

Excellent OP.

[bemused]

Why is he there ? What's he doing ? Who is he connected to ?

Does Theon list every dead person connected to WF every time he thinks of ghosts? I don't think so.

However, in Theon's dream of feasting with the dead at WF ,when Robb and Greywind appear and he wakes screaming (it's just after the RW) ... every person in the dream is really dead except for Theon. Chayle and Mikken sit together, Mikken dripping blood, Chayle dripping water.

That night he dreamed of the feast Ned Stark had thrown when King Robert came to Winterfell. The hall rang with music and laughter, though the cold winds were rising outside. At first it was all wine and roast meat, and Theon was making japes and eyeing the serving girls and having himself a fine time... until he noticed that the room was growing darker. The music did not seem so jolly then; he heard discords and strange silences, and notes that hung in the air bleeding. Suddenly the wine turned bitter in his mouth, and when he looked up from his cup he saw that he was dining with the dead.

King Robert sat with his guts spilling out on the table from the great gash in his belly, and Lord Eddard was headless beside him. Corpses lined the benches below, grey-brown flesh sloughing off their bones as they raised their cups to toast, worms crawling in and out of the holes that were their eyes. He knew them, every one; Jory Cassel and Fat Tom, Porther and Cayn and Hullen the master of horse, and all the others who had ridden south to King’s Landing never to return. Mikken and Chayle sat together, one dripping blood and the other water. Benfred Tallhart and his Wild Hares filled most of a table. The miller’s wife was there as well, and Farlen, even the wildling Theon had killed in the wolfswood the day he had saved Bran’s life.

But there were others with faces he had never known in life, faces he had seen only in stone. The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna. Her brother Brandon stood beside her, and their father Lord Rickard just behind. Along the walls figures halfseen moved through the shadows, pale shades with long grim faces. The sight of them sent fear shivering through Theon sharp as a knife. And then the tall doors opened with a crash, and a freezing gale blew down the hall, and Robb came walking out of the night. Grey Wind stalked beside, eyes burning, and man and wolf alike bled from half a hundred savage wounds.

Theon woke with a scream startling Wex so badly that the boy ran naked from the room -

Bran ,Rickon and Benjen are not mentioned in the dream..and neither are the miller's boys.. all those he sees are dead ,but he doesn't mention all of the dead individually, and he doesn't see living people .

Gynir was killed much later than Chayle , by Ramsay.. But his death actually shows you that Chayle must have been pulled out of the well. If his body had not been recovered , that well would not have been in use. And if the body had not been found ,Theon was in such a fragile mental state , I'm sure we would have heard about it , there would have been a frantic search.

Where is it stated in the text that the well and the pool are connected by underground tunnels ? They could be.. but I haven't seen any hints to that effect.

It's not a matter of disappointment if the HM is not a prominent character, it's that he has to have a reason to be connected to the GNC, or Mance's mission..or something..

I think your first assumption was right.

[Mithras]

He [Theon] knew them, every one; Jory Cassel and Fat Tom, Porther and Cayn and Hullen the master of horse, and all the others who had ridden south to King’s Landing never to return.

Jory was dead, and Fat Tom, and Porther, Alyn, Desmond, Hullen who had been master of horse, Harwin his son… all those who had gone south with his father, even Septa Mordane and Vayon Poole.

Bran used almost the same expression with Theon and gave us a more detailed list of the people who went south with Ned and are now thought to be dead. There is no reason to object to the idea that Theon's dream includes all the people went to the south with Ned, even the ones he didn’t name. But we know that Harwin (who was specifically named in Bran's list) is actually not dead and that is why we cannot take for granted that all the people in Theon's dream should be necessarily dead. This means Septon Chayle may well be alive.

[redriver]

Although many readers may be disappointed that the identity of the HM isn't a more prominent character such as Benjen or The Blackfish he doesn't have to be. Brynden Tully is almost certainly still alive and will make an appearance at some point in the upcoming novels, this doesn't have to be his reintroduction.

I look at the HM as a GRRM Easter Egg for the astute, much like the hound being on the quiet isle or Brienne carrying a repainted shield from House Whent and a sword reforged from Ice. The evidence is subtle but when compiled as it has by Slayer of Lies it becomes very persuasive.

I assumed the otherwise obscure proclamation of Septon Chayle being a strong swimmer was only meant to feed into his ironic death by drowning. Being a strong swimmer just as easily foreshadows a possible means for Septon Chayle to survive his predicament. There is precedence with both Davos and the Blackfish swimming/diving as a means of escaping. The reader is to assume Septon Chayle met his fate when he was cast down the well, if factual knowledge that the well and pool are connected via subterranean tunnels that is foiled.

Small note here but if the well was enclosed a body eventually will float to the surface as it begins to decompose and the body begins to fill with gas, if the well is your primary source of drinking water it only makes sense to retrieve the body before the well becomes poisoned. As Slayer of Lies also notes Gynir's corpse is retrieved from the well but Chayle's corpse never makes an appearance.

The omission of Septon Chayle from the dead after the HM meeting is very telling as well. This is by no means unintentional, however the unintentional typo referring to Septon Cellador as Septon Chayle that Bonifer Tasty expanded on does raise an eyebrow.

I have yet to find a counterpoint within this thread that can rule out Septon Chayle as the HM, until then he's my #1 candidate.

Excellent OP.

Errm,he's dead?

[bemused]

redriver.. Where the heck is a like button ?

Paper Waver .. you said ..There is no reason to object to the idea that Theon's dream includes all the people went to the south with Ned, even the ones he didn’t name.

I think there is a reason...GRRM tells us Theon is dreaming of ..all the others who had ridden south to King’s Landing never to return .. not just all the ones who'd ridden south.(Some of whom might survive and might return sometime in the future.) Bran's list is not in Theon's dream, and Bran list is conscious musing, not a dream.

Theon's dream shows some signs of being a true dream. I said it happened just after the Red Wedding , but it might have been just before, the timeline is somewhat unclear to me. Either way, Theon didn't know that Robb and Greywind were dead, or were soon to die and couldn't have known the manner of their deaths...Other characters in the dream also show their true wounds, or manner of dying.

Awake, Theon might mistake a living Harwin, or Hal Mollen or Benjen for a ghost , because common sense says they're probably dead.. Dreams, especially true dreams, don't have to take into account common sense or the general consensus.

I think this dream is very important apart from the question of the identity of the HM , because it shows us that even before Theon's mental defenses get completely broken down by Ramsay , Theon is sensitive to the supernatural and something of a clear channel for psychic/ telepathic communication. ( I assume , like so many other dreams, this one could be being influenced by Bloodraven)

[horizon]

Theon sees ghosts.

At one point he says: Leave Winterfel to me and my ghosts.

And at another point: I am a ghost.

And he shows the hooded man his hand without a problem, and only several moments later he is scared to show his hand.