Rickon Stark destined to die?

[jons nissa]

You are really underestimating the selfishness and ambition of the bannermen. They would prefer a child because this gives them more power.

They are involved in a power struggle right now even though they've been warned about the Others,

all that changes when a force of wights and others comes crashing through the wall. soldiers always recognize they need a leader. i stand by my statement that if it were a peaceful time, the bannermen would be selfish and ambitious and fight amongst themselves for power over rickon. during war, they will want a real leader who can bring them strategies that will allow them to win the war.

[Ned's Epic Beard]

Yes, but we don't know how the will put the things? Is Jon named only as heir, or is it stated that due to loss of his trueborn brothers, he is naming Jon as heir. There;s a big difference there.

You should read the second last cat chapter in storm. It is clear that Robb is naming jon because he believes that all the true born heirs are dead. Here is the quote for example:

Arya’s gone, the same as Bran and Rickon, and they’ll kill Sansa too once the dwarf gets a child from her. Jon is the only brother that remains to me. Should I die without issue, I want him to succeed me as King in the North.

[David Selig]

all that changes when a force of wights and others comes crashing through the wall. soldiers always recognize they need a leader. i stand by my statement that if it were a peaceful time, the bannermen would be selfish and ambitious and fight amongst themselves for power over rickon. during war, they will want a real leader who can bring them strategies that will allow them to win the war.

If the series has shown anything, it's that wartime is the perfect moment for the bannermen to indulge their ambition and selfishness. And Martin has shown that in ASOIF just because there is a magical monsters threat doesn't mean people would automotically unite against them and stop being selfish and short-sighted.

Besides, men like Manderly and other influential nobles most likely see themselves as the best possible leader, not some green bastard boy.

[Mladen]

You should read the second last cat chapter in storm. It is clear that Robb is naming jon because he believes that all the true born heirs are dead. Here is the quote for example:

Thank you so much for adressing me into something we all know. I am well aware that Robb is aware his brothers are dead. What I said in my posts, and clearly, you haven't read it, or didn't bother to pay attention, is that we don't know how the will is formulated... And because of that, we can't say for sure that Jon would be behind Rickon in that order...

Advice, please in the future read the posts you reply to before you condescendingly talk to someone...

[jons nissa]

Besides, men like Manderly and other influential nobles most likely see themselves as the best possible leader, not some green bastard boy.

those noblemen thought the same of robb. but to be honest, i think this will actually come into play so we will see how grrm resolves it. i expect a split in who they vote for but that jon will win the position. and then after the others are destroyed, jon will be dead. :crying: rickon will take his place.

[Mladen]

those noblemen thought the same of robb. but to be honest, i think this will actually come into play so we will see how grrm resolves it. i expect a split in who they vote for but that jon will win the position. and then after the others are destroyed, jon will be dead. :crying: rickon will take his place.

I don't think we'll ever see Dance of direwolves, so to speak. I mean, Jon will take position out of necessity, and will rule until Rickon comes of age. When that date comes, after fighting Others and reestablishing NW, he will take the black again, leaving Rickon as his heir successor...

[Ned's Epic Beard]

Thank you so much for adressing me into something we all know. I am well aware that Robb is aware his brothers are dead. What I said in my posts, and clearly, you haven't read it, or didn't bother to pay attention, is that we don't know how the will is formulated... And because of that, we can't say for sure that Jon would be behind Rickon in that order...

Advice, please in the future read the posts you reply to before you condescendingly talk to someone...

I wasn't trying to be condescending toward you or any other commentator at all.

How can you say that we don't know how the will was formulated? Robb clearly says himself in the quote I provided in previous post.

[Mladen]

I wasn't trying to be condescending toward you or any other commentator at all.

How can you say that we don't know how the will was formulated? Robb clearly says himself in the quote I provided in previous post.

We know what he thinks, but we don't know how he wrote the will. Here's two possible sentences:

1. I, Robb Stark, KitN blah blah, due to the deaths of my legitimized brothers and lack of male heirs, proclaim Jon Snow as my heir and hereby I legitimize him so he is known as Jon Stark.

2, I, Robb Stark, KitN blah blah, name Jon Snow as my heir and legitimize him as my brother, Jon Stark.

As you can see, there's huge difference between those two lines, and since we don't know how exactly Robb formulated his will, we can't for certainty assume the will is based on false pretense. The intetion is based on false pretense, but we don't know about the actual content of the will.

[Ned's Epic Beard]

We know what he thinks, but we don't know how he wrote the will. Here's two possible sentences:

1. I, Robb Stark, KitN blah blah, due to the deaths of my legitimized brothers and lack of male heirs, proclaim Jon Snow as my heir and hereby I legitimize him so he is known as Jon Stark.

2, I, Robb Stark, KitN blah blah, name Jon Snow as my heir and legitimize him as my brother, Jon Stark.

As you can see, there's huge difference between those two lines, and since we don't know how exactly Robb formulated his will, we can't for certainty assume the will is based on false pretense. The intetion is based on false pretense, but we don't know about the actual content of the will.

So if we are taking that route then there might be a third possibility: He didn't or couldn't write any will at all!

[jons nissa]

I don't think we'll ever see Dance of direwolves, so to speak. I mean, Jon will take position out of necessity, and will rule until Rickon comes of age. When that date comes, after fighting Others and reestablishing NW, he will take the black again, leaving Rickon as his heir successor...

did my post give the sense that there would be a fight between jon and rickon of their own accord? it wasn't meant to. i believe there will be some "discussion" about who does what. i think that jon will get the title of lord of winterfell first but will die and it will go to rickon. i don't see jon ever challenging any of ned's kids for winterfell the way i see dany challenging aegon outright for the throne.

[Mladen]

So if we are taking that route then there might be a third possibility: He didn't or couldn't write any will at all!

He wrote a will, we know that, as we know he legitimized Jon (from WOIAF app), but we don't know many more details. For instance, Sansa's new status, whether he just disinherited her or cutt her off completely and made her an outcast...

did my post give the sense that there would be a fight between jon and rickon of their own accord? it wasn't meant to. i believe there will be some "discussion" about who does what. i think that jon will get the title of lord of winterfell first but will die and it will go to rickon. i don't see jon ever challenging any of ned's kids for winterfell the way i see dany challenging aegon outright for the throne.

No, no, I was just talking about possible scenario...

[jons nissa]

He wrote a will, we know that, as we know he legitimized Jon (from WOIAF app), but we don't know many more details.

i will admit to wondering how impactful robb's will will be to the bannermen, especially given it's absence from the series. i think it will be more to let jon know what robb wanted.

[A Man Has Said]

Robb will is invalid because was it based upon the false pretense that bran and rickon are dead. No one will rally behind a bastard while Ned's true born sons is alive.

That depends if Robb based his will upon false pretense or he just named Jon as his heir. Since we don't know the content we can't assume either. Also, Rickon is what 5,6. Which Lord would support him, and not legitimized Jon?

The very fact that people on this forum don't naturally agree on the outcome seems to me to indicate that people in the north would have difficulty with it too. I would hope it never came to that because a war or even a struggle between Jon and Rickon would be tragic. Anyway, it's not going to happen. Jon has already declared that he isn't interested in becoming the Stark in Winterfell, and that was when he was under the impression that all his half-brothers were dead. How would knowing that Rickon was alive cause him to change his mind?

[Steve Moss II]

I also don't see Jon accepting the title of King in the North or Lord of WF, if he knows Bran or Rickon still lives. I do see him securing the dynasty and then returning to the Wall, if given the opportunity, to avoid future dynsatic conflicts.

[Mladen]

i will admit to wondering how impactful robb's will will be to the bannermen, especially given it's absence from the series. i think it will be more to let jon know what robb wanted.

As Sansa fan, I am even more interested in its impact on Sansa, and what exactly Robb wrote about her. It will be interesting to read unravelling of that will.

[Ned's Epic Beard]

He wrote a will, we know that, as we know he legitimized Jon (from WOIAF app), but we don't know many more details. For instance, Sansa's new status, whether he just disinherited her or cutt her off completely and made her an outcast...

How do we know that he wrote the will for sure? And I believe that the same app lists the place of jons death too. Should we consider it as a fact too?

[Dany Girl]

We know what he thinks, but we don't know how he wrote the will. Here's two possible sentences:

1. I, Robb Stark, KitN blah blah, due to the deaths of my legitimized brothers and lack of male heirs, proclaim Jon Snow as my heir and hereby I legitimize him so he is known as Jon Stark.

2, I, Robb Stark, KitN blah blah, name Jon Snow as my heir and legitimize him as my brother, Jon Stark.

As you can see, there's huge difference between those two lines, and since we don't know how exactly Robb formulated his will, we can't for certainty assume the will is based on false pretense. The intetion is based on false pretense, but we don't know about the actual content of the will.

I agree, option 1 and 2 would have completely different meanings for the bannermen.

[N/A]

The very fact that people on this forum don't naturally agree on the outcome seems to me to indicate that people in the north would have difficulty with it too. I would hope it never came to that because a war or even a struggle between Jon and Rickon would be tragic. Anyway, it's not going to happen. Jon has already declared that he isn't interested in becoming the Stark in Winterfell, and that was when he was under the impression that all his half-brothers were dead. How would knowing that Rickon was alive cause him to change his mind?

A Man is Wise :thumbsup:

[Mladen]

How do we know that he wrote the will for sure? And I believe that the same app lists the place of jons death too. Should we consider it as a fact to?

We should consider that Robb wrote a will in which he legitimized Jon as the fact. As for Jon's death, someone just said that it means they included what's written in the books without going into future installments.

[jons nissa]

As Sansa fan, I am even more interested in its impact on Sansa, and what exactly Robb wrote about her. It will be interesting to read unravelling of that will.

i can't imagine it saying anymore than sansa stark lannister cannot inherit winterfell. neither can her husband or any children she may have. i don't think he will be tricky with the wording. the impact on sansa is not going to be so heartbreaking for her as you've stated you think it will be. it removes her inheritance and will chase away tons of would be suitors. it will, however, be heartbreaking for littlefinger. :P