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Sansa's attitude


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Tyrion does want her to ease up on the cold shoulder and I dislike that Sansa, in her POV chapters cannot see beyond his deformities to his actual personality (which is in keeping with her hopeless devotion to illusions of fairytale romance and knights).

His actual personality is that of a murderous misogynistic jerk. Any woman would be wise to stay away from such a man.

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As of ASoS, Tyrion is still one of the POV chapters that we still like. And we see his inner monologues, which Sansa doesn't. In essence, we know him better - and it's that knowledge that brings me to the conclusion that Sansa could've made an effort to look past the superficial.

But she doesn't and Tyrion doesn't blame her given what he (a Lannister) represents to her.

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Tyrion does want her to ease up on the cold shoulder and I dislike that Sansa, in her POV chapters cannot see beyond his deformities to his actual personality (which is in keeping with her hopeless devotion to illusions of fairytale romance and knights).

She does directly that when she accepts over Lancel for how she remembers him being nicer to her. However, recognizing someone was nice to you doesn't mean that you have to accept to have sex with them or otherwise wanting to develop an emotional connection with them. Especially, when there are a dozen other things wrong about them(not even counting appearances) for you not to want to get close to them.

As of ASoS, Tyrion is still one of the POV chapters that we still like. And we see his inner monologues, which Sansa doesn't. In essence, we know him better - and it's that knowledge that brings me to the conclusion that Sansa could've made an effort to look past the superficial.

So you are of the opinion that if Sansa tried harder she should have been able to read his mind?

Next, it is not necessary true that "we" still like Tyrion in ASOS. Moreover, even if "we" personally like him that doesn't necessary create a situation where Sansa should like him seeing how she has an entirely different angle.(such as how his family is attempting to kill her's, which I assuming isn't the reality for the reader)

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  • 4 weeks later...

True, but Shae is not even a real threat to her, the others are

I think Shae is a threat to her, she does not know it. That is based the theory that Tywin paid and supplied a bedmate to Bronn for Tywin. Shae reported to Tywin. Sansa is right to trust no one. As much as I hate to say it, a little girl who believes in knights in shining armour and romance, would hardly warm up to the Tyrion described in the books -- one black eye, one green, white hair with a black beard. This has been noted above


After a reread, Tyrion had assured her at Joff's name day tourney that he will not treat her as the rest of the Lannisters had. Unfortuantely she hates Joff and Cersei so much, she cannot take the hand of friendship extended. She then thinks she is free of Joff, until she learns that he plans to use her as a concubine. Add Tyrion as husband, (with the threat of Joff still ready to rape her) and she cannot see the forest for the trees.

Yes, she was a dimwit, "wet with love." as Cersei put it. But at this point I began to feel sorry for her.

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It's a tribute to Martin's writing that we can have a discussion like this. It shows how well he has handled the two viewpoint characters involved. Early on, the Sansa chapters are very hard to bear, because she is so naive, and as a reader I found it very frustrating that she wouldn't "wake up" to the cruelty and danger all around her, but persisted in living in a silly little-girl world. Conversely, Tyrion's chapters are fun to read because of his wit, cynicism, and the impression that he does have some kind of inner moral compass that the other members of his family lack. But the cleverness of the writing is that we see him that way because that's how he sees himself. I was genuinely touched at Tyrion's apparent regard for Sansa's feelings, and disappointed with him that Sansa did not acknowledge that. But what we are seeing in Sansa's chapters is the viewpoint of a child who is having to grow up in the worst possible situation. She's finally losing her naivete, her innocence, and yet she doesn't have an adult's repertoire of responses. So she's trying to adapt to her new understanding of things in the best way she knows how, which is to not trust the Lannisters and just try to stay alive until there is some way to get out. All she has to protect herself is the shield of emotionlessness and extreme caution in everything she says. She's too young and too frightened to begin to show Tyrion any kind of appreciation, even if you share Tyrion's perception that he deserves it for his decision not to rape her.

This was one of my favorite parts of the books, as it really does a fine job of giving us two incompatible points of view and making both of them believable.

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I have read past chapter 60. I continue to despise Sansa. The way she treats Tyrion despite his best efforts to comfort her and establish common ground. She remains cold, and emotionless.

She only shows her sadness over her family, when she is alone. I understand all shes been through and her mind set for withholding her true feelings, but she has no reason to do so in the presence of Tyrion.

The thing is he could almost be her night in shining armor if it wasn't for his heart already belonging to Shae ( Which I can't understand what he sees in her for all she puts him through)

I just wish Sansa had been a little more warm and human to Tyrion. She is foolish not to see that despite all his troubles he gives her so much kindness, yet she returns none of it.

They could have made a nice couple if She wasnt such a stick in the mud all the time. I don't see how any readers would like her character.

I don't even know where to start with this. I'm well aware of the (incredibly annoying and misogynistic) Nice Guy trope, but this is a really extreme, mind-boggling version of that trope.

Sansa didn't do anything wrong to Tyrion. She never treated him badly - unlike a bunch of other people, particularly his family. Sansa doesn't owe anything to Tyrion - especially not sex or love or emotional connection.

Tyrion was nicer to her than most people in King's Landing, but that doesn't make him a "almost her true knight" by any means. Let's see what some of the things that make it "almost" are:

- He's been actively working against/waging a war against her family, on behalf of his family, which has taken Sansa hostage and murdered her father.

- He is still working for his family and supporting their plans. Why the heck should Sansa trust him, especially after having had the rude awakening and realized that people who pretend to be nice to you (Joffrey, Cersei) are actually scheming against you?

- He accepted (albeit reluctantly, but still accepted) his father's suggestion to marry Sansa against her will. He did give her a choice to marry Lancel instead of him... but that was hardly a choice - one Lannister or another, and neither of them someone Sansa would choose.

- This marriage was a part of the war against her family - an attempt to seize their lands, using Sansa as a pawn.

- He broke the promise to her mother to return Sansa to her family.

- He doesn't love Sansa - not just because "his heart belongs to Shae" (actually, I think it belongs to Tysha, if it belongs to anyone, and Shae is essentially his attempt to work out his Tysha issues), but because he doesn't like Sansa as a person, doesn't care about her as a person beyond common decency that makes him feel bad about seeing someone beaten and abused (when she was almost raped and killed by the mob, he was mainly worried because it would mean she couldn't be ransomed for his brother Jaime) and doesn't even know her or understand her as a person (he even thinks at one point that she may be still pining for Joffrey?!). Before his father strong-armed him into agreeing to marry her, he never showed any particular interest in Sansa.

- The only desire he has for her is entirely selfish and shallow: he is drawn to her claim of Winterfell and tempted by the possibility of being Lord of Winterfell, if he can't be Lord of Casterly Rock; he is physically attracted to her, purely because of her body (Tyrion seems to be attracted to every good-looking female, especially if he sees her naked - see Alayaya), even though he considers her "a child"; he is himself aware that this is not his shining moment.

- He is a decent person at the core, so he couldn't go through with raping her, despite his father's commands; however, he did seriously consider going through with it and came close to raping her. He took off his clothes, made her take off hers, looked at her naked body and fondled her breasts, knowing that Sansa was 12, not attracted to him at all, and utterly terrified. That was an extremely uncomfortable moment.

- Later on he starts fantasizing about her coming to him for comfort and starting to love him - basically, he is again trying to work out his Tysha issues, this time through Sansa. This is understandable, but shows how needy and insecure Tyrion is and that he has massive issues with women that make him constantly look for love in all the wrong places (we see it with Shae, but at least she was willing to have sex with him, and he could delude himself that she really wanted him; Sansa is the last female in the world who'd be likely to fall for him, and he wasn't even interested in her before Tywin decided they had to get married). And it is also selfish - he wants her to love him, even though he doesn't love her. Basically, though he doesn't consciously realize this, he wants her to be so desperate and weak and vulnerable that she would run to him at last, to the only man she can turn to, whatever her personal desires may be. (No, he is not wishing that they could be good friends.)

- Yes, now that you've mentioned it, he's also been having a serious relationship with someone else all that time.

- And last but definitely not least by any means - she does not feel any sexual or romantic attraction to him. She thinks he is nicer than the others in his family, she's grateful for his relative kindness (she even prayed for him during the Blackwater battle), she feels sorry for him for being so needy ("he is like a starved child, and I have no food to give him) - but there is no attraction. There is no spark between them, all their conversations are stilted, they have no emotional connection, their personalities seem romantically incompatible, and she finds him completely physically repulsive. This is not something someone can beat by trying really hard. You don't tell yourself "Get hot for this person, now!" and make yourself feel the desire that is not there.

And why the heck does Sansa have to want Tyrion? Because it's her "duty" as a hostage who doesn't get to have a say in who she will marry or have sex with? I find it mind-boggling that she's judged as "immature" for not finding Tyrion attractive - as if being attracted to someone is somehow connected to "maturity" - but Tyrion is not immature for not finding Lollys attractive? (Unlike Sansa though, he had the luxury to refuse to marry Lollys.) Why is it bad for Sansa to be sexually repulsed by Tyrion and prefer tall and strong men who may love her for herself, but it's not bad for Tyrion to be sexually repulsed by Lollys and prefer slim and pretty women who can have a funny, sassy conversation with him?

Personally, I love both characters, but there is absolutely nothing, nothing, to suggest that Sansa and Tyrion could have made even a decent, let alone nice couple. They have zero romantic compatibility. They never wanted to marry each other - it was Tywin Lannister's idea, for political reasons. And I don't happen to think that "what Tywin has joined together, let no man put asunder". Both of them were made miserable by that 'marriage'. They could have perhaps been friends under different circumstances - but a couple, no, The only thing I would wish for them is a nice annulment, and hopefully being friendly and understanding to each other in the future.

I've never understood people who think Sansa "should have" loved Tyrion. It doesn't work like that, for starters - you don't make yourself love or desire someone; and why should she disregard her own personal desires and dreams, as well as her feelings for her family - just in order to make Tyrion feel a bit better about himself? I've never seen anyone say that Tyrion needs to grow and mature and that he should have married Lollys, disregarding his own desires, and devoted himself to making Lollys feel loved.

While it obviously doesn't make sense to want this from a Sansa fan POV, I also don't see why one would want it as a Tyrion fan. I can only guess that some Tyrion fans see Sansa's love as some kind of prize for Tyrion. But, like I said, Tyrion never loved Sansa, he did not see her as a romantic partner he would normally choose for himself, and he would not really want a wife who is sexually repulsed by him and feels no emotional or romantic connection to him. His reluctant acceptance of this marriage showed his father's dominance over him, and the only desires he had for her were driven by selfish and superficial reasons; in other words, Tyrion's attraction to Sansa did not show him in a very good light, while his fantasies of her coming to love him showed that he was the one who needed to mature and deal with his issues regarding women. On the other hand, through his respect for Sansa's wishes and refusal to rape her, Tyrion did beat his demons and showed that he was indeed a much better person than his contemporaries believed he was. In our contemporary circumstances, I would never praise someone for the basic decency of not committing rape; but in a world like Westeros, the sad truth is that this is indeed an exceptionally kind behavior, since marital rape isn't even recognized as rape, and young girls being treated as chattel and being used for political reasons with no regard for their personhood is not unusual. But instead of that, you'd want Tyrion to, what, make his father proud by breaking Sansa's resistance the 'nice way'?

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