Why did the wights attack en masse only at The Fist

[King Aerys the Just]

There may well be something peculiar about the Fist and its significant that at first Ghost was unable to get in - as if it was warded against him. Beyond that its difficult to say in the absence of evidence.

As to the attack and why it appears to so far be unique, its a simple matter of logistics. Up there the Watch were quite literally a sitting target. They stayed there in that one place long enough for the White Walkers/Otherlanders to be able to assemble a big enough army of wights to overwhelm them.

Remember that the wights are generally slow and clumsy and we've never seen one running, so actually assembling an army of them is going to take some time in the first place and then trying to intercept a faster-moving force of men is going to be horrendously difficult. It can be done of course if properly planned, but its not an operation that can be mounted at the drop of a hat.

Mormont would have been fine if he kept moving, and those who got away from the Fist soon outdistanced their pursuers - except ser Puddles, who conspicuously didn't have any wights trailing after him. As I say on the Fist they were quite literally a sitting target and that's why, and only why, the Wights were able to mount a massed attack.

Should that really be so though, at least for extended periods of time? Horses and humans on the move will need most hours of the days for time to sleep and eat and rest, while wights should be able to march (or shamble) forward around the clock in necessary.

[Ittiz]

I'd say the reason they only attacked en masse at the fist was because that was the only time the night's watch was north of the wall in large numbers. Mance implies they get attacked a lot by wights in large numbers.

[Andros Sotherton]

Two things I really get excited aboutwhen reading this thread:

- the Others being intelligent and strategic

- FotFM being something more than some old ruins, so to speak.

First of, the Others. We haven't learned much from the books yet of how intelligent they accually are apart from what someone said that they laughed when being attacked etc that showes some sort of intelligence and social behaviour. Even so, Martin really has made us and the westerosi people scared of them. I surely hope that we learn more about their history, that they use tactics, have a leader and more! Maybe through Sam in the Citadel or from battle in the north. Simply to make us dread them even more! As Martin made us all be scared whenever one of our favourite characters were in danger, after Ned's beheading and the Red Wedding.

Secondly, the Fist of the First Men. This I'm not as sure we will get an answer to in the coming novels. But I really love reading your theories on this! I myself never thought much of it as something ancient and magical. But as you mention, the clues are there! Can this reach "R+L=J" theory-level?! Probably not but as exciting anyways.

[Mulled Wino]

There may well be something peculiar about the Fist and its significant that at first Ghost was unable to get in - as if it was warded against him. Beyond that its difficult to say in the absence of evidence.

As to the attack and why it appears to so far be unique, its a simple matter of logistics. Up there the Watch were quite literally a sitting target. They stayed there in that one place long enough for the White Walkers/Otherlanders to be able to assemble a big enough army of wights to overwhelm them.

Remember that the wights are generally slow and clumsy and we've never seen one running, so actually assembling an army of them is going to take some time in the first place and then trying to intercept a faster-moving force of men is going to be horrendously difficult. It can be done of course if properly planned, but its not an operation that can be mounted at the drop of a hat.

Mormont would have been fine if he kept moving, and those who got away from the Fist soon outdistanced their pursuers - except ser Puddles, who conspicuously didn't have any wights trailing after him. As I say on the Fist they were quite literally a sitting target and that's why, and only why, the Wights were able to mount a massed attack.

im buying what you're selling here. we havent seen the direwolves warded yet so it must be something different, like the others warded it against maybe wargs/children/greenseers.

[Mulled Wino]

Should that really be so though, at least for extended periods of time? Horses and humans on the move will need most hours of the days for time to sleep and eat and rest, while wights should be able to march (or shamble) forward around the clock in necessary.

or maybe the FotFM is some kind of others stronghold.

The wildling column seems like it was moving slow enough for a large scale attack rather than just the smaller outlier attacks.

[Mulled Wino]

Two things I really get excited aboutwhen reading this thread:

- the Others being intelligent and strategic

- FotFM being something more than some old ruins, so to speak.

First of, the Others. We haven't learned much from the books yet of how intelligent they accually are apart from what someone said that they laughed when being attacked etc that showes some sort of intelligence and social behaviour. Even so, Martin really has made us and the westerosi people scared of them. I surely hope that we learn more about their history, that they use tactics, have a leader and more! Maybe through Sam in the Citadel or from battle in the north. Simply to make us dread them even more! As Martin made us all be scared whenever one of our favourite characters were in danger, after Ned's beheading and the Red Wedding.

Secondly, the Fist of the First Men. This I'm not as sure we will get an answer to in the coming novels. But I really love reading your theories on this! I myself never thought much of it as something ancient and magical. But as you mention, the clues are there! Can this reach "R+L=J" theory-level?! Probably not but as exciting anyways.

the Others have to be somewhere. The wights seem attracted to the Fist and to Leaf's home where bloodraven lives. There were quite a few just hanging out there

[enoofu]

Probably because most humans North of the Wall were at Mance's camp that was nearby

[juanml82]

why cant the white walkers freeze the bay of seals and cross there ignoring the wall ?

Maybe they will. Or maybe it's related to the 'death things in the water'.

In ancient times, it's likely the Watch also held a two oceans navy of sort. And the size of both fleets diminished with the Watch.

There may well be something peculiar about the Fist and its significant that at first Ghost was unable to get in - as if it was warded against him. Beyond that its difficult to say in the absence of evidence.

As to the attack and why it appears to so far be unique, its a simple matter of logistics. Up there the Watch were quite literally a sitting target. They stayed there in that one place long enough for the White Walkers/Otherlanders to be able to assemble a big enough army of wights to overwhelm them.

Remember that the wights are generally slow and clumsy and we've never seen one running, so actually assembling an army of them is going to take some time in the first place and then trying to intercept a faster-moving force of men is going to be horrendously difficult. It can be done of course if properly planned, but its not an operation that can be mounted at the drop of a hat.

Mormont would have been fine if he kept moving, and those who got away from the Fist soon outdistanced their pursuers - except ser Puddles, who conspicuously didn't have any wights trailing after him. As I say on the Fist they were quite literally a sitting target and that's why, and only why, the Wights were able to mount a massed attack.

If they are slow and clumsy, how did they manage to climb the Fist under enemy fire (a rock might not 'kill' them, but they would stumble and fall) and end up fighting on the top? Or how did they chase the Night's Watch through the forest? They wouldn't even be able to easily move through the woods if they are clumsy.

The same for the Long Night. What was the great deal there, if wights are slow and clumsy? More agile archers, maybe mounted, could deal with them, and they would have been unable to besiege whatever passed for fortifications back then.

I think wights are more capable than what we think.

[Andros Sotherton]

the Others have to be somewhere. The wights seem attracted to the Fist and to Leaf's home where bloodraven lives. There were quite a few just hanging out there

You mean where they come from, have their seat or something? Anyhow, yes they have to be somewhere! And how many Others have we acctually "seen"? Aren't most of those we read about wights, their zombie slaves? And how do they control them, turn them? So many questions!

The same for the Long Night. What was the great deal there, if wights are slow and clumsy? More agile archers, maybe mounted, could deal with them, and they would have been unable to besiege whatever passed for fortifications back then.

I think wights are more capable than what we think.

Might be that back in the days more of the Others joined in when they finally marched south? That would be quite a bit more difficult to handle. And if they are intelligent, or more intelligent than we know, these dangerous creatures could use tactics and sacrifice! Scary...

[Barty]

I read this theory somewhere else(cant remember where) but it basically says that the others attack in large numbers because they sensed that there was no longer a Stark in WF. It seems to much of a co incidence that we keep on hearing that there must be a Stark in WF and as soon as there is no Stark(in WF) the Other's first big attack begins.

[butterbumps!]

first off, im not scared to admit that, as a 40ish yr old father of three business owner, I am actually ecstatic to read your posts BB. Ugh. Im a fanboy and im deleting this post in 24 hrs.

lol, you are too kind, MW. Being the insufferable jerk I am, I actually have a compendium of citations about the Others and ancient Northern lore; do you want me to send it to you/ post it? (I was actually thinking about posting an OP about it that separates this stuff from the Bolton one I'd done, but I could also give you the raw citations if you think it would be useful here).

theres clearly something more than impending danger that ghost senses imo. The CB crows are there for a long time before danger approaches them and the forest becomes empty while they are there, yet the ravens dont seem to make more of a rukus than before. Ghost is gone so we dont know his reaction. Im looking for a connection between the possible old school sort of "capital" of the first men and the danger the nw are in.

I actually agree with what Black Crow suggests in terms of the Fist being a place where skin-changing might be interfered with, as that would explain the behavior of Ghost and the ravens. In terms of the ringfort, I do think it's more likely that it's an ancient city than a necropolis. It's mentioned in passing, but the Great Barrow Ned and Robert pass in the North (and I think Theon might see it as well later) seems to be the major necropolis of the First Men; I think there's something there, actually, as these barrows are brought up casually, but deliberately, as though there might be pending significance there. I've wondered in passing if the horn the wildlings were trying to dig for in the FrostFangs might actually be found there, but I'm not sure anything really suggests that.

I'm drawn to Fist= Ancient City, in part because "ringforts" are architecturally speaking "urban" territories, as well as the fact that it would be yet another significant civilization laid to waste by some potentially magical cause (we also have Hardhome and Valyria). I know this is crackpot, but my favorite theory is this: The Fist was the major First Men city, but some got their hands on ice magic, abused it, and caused the rise of Others, wiping out the humans (technically, I think the Others are men who have been corrupted by magic). Then, the Fist became a stronghold of the Others, sort of like their base of operations. I'm not suggesting they live there exactly, but I kind of think this might be a nexus for them, that somehow the old powers are weaker there or something like that.

[Florina Laufeyson]

I think wights are more capable than what we think.

As do i. Like i said upthread, i think that Others control them with deliberation. Considering the "ambush" on Mormont with those ranger wights, its entirely possible that the Others planned that and made the wights wake when necessary and attack when necessary.

Most likely the Wall is some sort of magical barrier against the Others as well as a physical one.

I also agree with this. The Black Gate seems to indicate that there is some sort of magical ward on the Wall itself. The Horn of Joramun may be linked to this magical barrier or ward. Only that can really bring it down. I think that MAYBE, that the Horn doesnt send the Wall crashing down as much as dispels the wards in place. A NW can pass through the Black Gate, but Coldhands (who used to be a ranger) could not due to...most likely his "dead" situation. Sam had to do it. Its possible that the Wall has some funky magic in place that is tied to the NW laws and just human beings in general. (It would be interesting if Mel tries to get beyond the Wall. Notice she hasnt tried......)

There has to be a reason why the Others just dont pull a Wildling and climb the Wall. Should be cake for them. But something is holding them back. Those ranger wights almost seemed...smuggled in under trickery. Hmmmmmm.......

[King Aerys the Just]

or maybe the FotFM is some kind of others stronghold.

The wildling column seems like it was moving slow enough for a large scale attack rather than just the smaller outlier attacks.

Yep, that should definitely have been slow enough.

I actually agree with what Black Crow suggests in terms of the Fist being a place where skin-changing might be interfered with, as that would explain the behavior of Ghost and the ravens. In terms of the ringfort, I do think it's more likely that it's an ancient city than a necropolis. It's mentioned in passing, but the Great Barrow Ned and Robert pass in the North (and I think Theon might see it as well later) seems to be the major necropolis of the First Men; I think there's something there, actually, as these barrows are brought up casually, but deliberately, as though there might be pending significance there. I've wondered in passing if the horn the wildlings were trying to dig for in the FrostFangs might actually be found there, but I'm not sure anything really suggests that.

I'm drawn to Fist= Ancient City, in part because "ringforts" are architecturally speaking "urban" territories, as well as the fact that it would be yet another significant civilization laid to waste by some potentially magical cause (we also have Hardhome and Valyria). I know this is crackpot, but my favorite theory is this: The Fist was the major First Men city, but some got their hands on ice magic, abused it, and caused the rise of Others, wiping out the humans (technically, I think the Others are men who have been corrupted by magic). Then, the Fist became a stronghold of the Others, sort of like their base of operations. I'm not suggesting they live there exactly, but I kind of think this might be a nexus for them, that somehow the old powers are weaker there or something like that.

Another idea is that the Fist of the First Men was the site of an important battle against the Others, which the humans may have lost, and that Ghost's negative reaction to the place is because he can feel that "something very bad" had happened there, even if it was long ago. In that case the obsidian stash could have been part of what remained of weapon stocks the First Men had gathered there in preparation for the battle.

I think show Jon kind of hints at that since he makes a comment to the effect of "not enough" when Sam (I think) says that he wonders how strong the old ringfort used to be.

[The Mother of The Others]

It seems too much of a co incidence that we keep on hearing that there must be a Stark in WF and as soon as there is no Stark(in WF) the Other's first big attack begins.

Yeah. Fuck. It almost has to involve the crypt kings rising to zombie bash the wights, right? I mean, that's how it makes sense for the Stark to always be necessary, because only the living patriarch would have license to wake the ancestors, so now that Winterfell is vacant it can't be done and the great weapon is disarmed and the Walkers lose their fear of men. Because if it's not the crypt kings, then what is it? How else is a wight army supposed to be fearful of one particular house? How else is The Stark supposed to wave a hand and (reliably) save the day? Come on, people. Zombie Starks arise. It's got to happen.

Are we looking at another "Sauron fears Isildur's heir" situation here? (where the Starks are the only ones who've taught the wights to respect them in battle. In that case, it'd be the warging that separates the Starks from the rest of us, so that must be the weapon they turn against the cold ones when desperation demands it of them? In species warfare, the prohibition against warging sentients is set aside and Starks rise to the forefront as the ones who can scramble the enemies' minds allowing mere mortals to then descend on the stunned Others and cut them down??? Then, you'd have one hell of a post-traumatic syndrome suffered by those who've let the Cold into their minds by warging Others. It might even lead to nutso behavior like...... skinning people alive in a sanitarium fort of dread, etc.).

Also, the wights attacked the fist as a swarm because that's what they do and they were very bored after having nothing to attack for so long up in the boonies. Then if you give them a target of course they're going to gasm-strike it with great relish.

[enoofu]

From the map, the fist look like a fort to watch against the Others.

It has water not far on all three sides and is close to the only navigable land route from "The Wall" to "Land of Always Winter"

[Mulled Wino]

lol, you are too kind, MW. Being the insufferable jerk I am, I actually have a compendium of citations about the Others and ancient Northern lore; do you want me to send it to you/ post it? (I was actually thinking about posting an OP about it that separates this stuff from the Bolton one I'd done, but I could also give you the raw citations if you think it would be useful here).

I actually agree with what Black Crow suggests in terms of the Fist being a place where skin-changing might be interfered with, as that would explain the behavior of Ghost and the ravens. In terms of the ringfort, I do think it's more likely that it's an ancient city than a necropolis. It's mentioned in passing, but the Great Barrow Ned and Robert pass in the North (and I think Theon might see it as well later) seems to be the major necropolis of the First Men; I think there's something there, actually, as these barrows are brought up casually, but deliberately, as though there might be pending significance there. I've wondered in passing if the horn the wildlings were trying to dig for in the FrostFangs might actually be found there, but I'm not sure anything really suggests that.

I'm drawn to Fist= Ancient City, in part because "ringforts" are architecturally speaking "urban" territories, as well as the fact that it would be yet another significant civilization laid to waste by some potentially magical cause (we also have Hardhome and Valyria). I know this is crackpot, but my favorite theory is this: The Fist was the major First Men city, but some got their hands on ice magic, abused it, and caused the rise of Others, wiping out the humans (technically, I think the Others are men who have been corrupted by magic). Then, the Fist became a stronghold of the Others, sort of like their base of operations. I'm not suggesting they live there exactly, but I kind of think this might be a nexus for them, that somehow the old powers are weaker there or something like that.

id love to read it, as im pretty convinced the FotFM is actually an outpost or "hot spot" for the Others. The dragonglass wasnt actually on the Fist but buried nearby, the Fist wanted nothing to do with Ghost, there was no evidence of any wildling occupation or settlement despite the obvious benefits of its location. It's a wasteland in prime real estate, but nobody wants to be e there

[Mulled Wino]

Yeah. Fuck. It almost has to involve the crypt kings rising to zombie bash the wights, right? I mean, that's how it makes sense for the Stark to always be necessary, because only the living patriarch would have license to wake the ancestors, so now that Winterfell is vacant it can't be done and the great weapon is disarmed and the Walkers lose their fear of men. Because if it's not the crypt kings, then what is it? How else is a wight army supposed to be fearful of one particular house? How else is The Stark supposed to wave a hand and (reliably) save the day? Come on, people. Zombie Starks arise. It's got to happen.

Are we looking at another "Sauron fears Isildur's heir" situation here? (where the Starks are the only ones who've taught the wights to respect them in battle. In that case, it'd be the warging that separates the Starks from the rest of us, so that must be the weapon they turn against the cold ones when desperation demands it of them? In species warfare, the prohibition against warging sentients is set aside and Starks rise to the forefront as the ones who can scramble the enemies' minds allowing mere mortals to then descend on the stunned Others and cut them down??? Then, you'd have one hell of a post-traumatic syndrome suffered by those who've let the Cold into their minds by warging Others. It might even lead to nutso behavior like...... skinning people alive in a sanitarium fort of dread, etc.).

Also, the wights attacked the fist as a swarm because that's what they do and they were very bored after having nothing to attack for so long up in the boonies. Then if you give them a target of course they're going to gasm-strike it with great relish.

love the first 3 paragraphs, the last one im not so sure of. I mean there's a 30k person feast uo the milkwater

[Muggle]

where do the others go when the sun comes up?

[Mulled Wino]

where do the others go when the sun comes up?

under the fist?

[enoofu]

No one wants to be there since what happen to Hardhome 200-300 years before the conquest.

Since major settlements in the North beyond the wall can't be protected

Either magic was used similar to the Doom of Valyria or the Other attacked or Both happen in Hardhome case