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Why did the wights attack en masse only at The Fist


Mulled Wino

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No one wants to be there since what happen to Hardhome 200-300 years before the conquest.

Since major settlements in the North beyond the wall can't be protected

Either magic was used similar to the Doom of Valyria or the Other attacked or Both happen in Hardhome case

I was under the impression the Hardhomme incident was because of its coastal location.

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There are no details on what exactly caused the destruction of Hardhome. Given how fire/lava/wyrms/dragons something like that was involved, I don't think it points to White Walkers, but we can't tell for sure.

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There are no details on what exactly caused the destruction of Hardhome. Given how fire/lava/wyrms/dragons something like that was involved, I don't think it points to White Walkers, but we can't tell for sure.

Yeah agree, but we can't be certain that Hardhome wasn't overran during the night of great fire that left ash falling for half a year.

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I'm sticking with my broken horn/Horn of Joramun theory. It was late last night when I posted it so I didin't expand. Here's the longer version.

If we assume that the Others come from The Land of Always Winter, a fairly reasonable assumption given Bran's dream about the dead greenseers on spikes there, the Fist looks to be a pretty good vantage point against Others coming through the various mountain passes through the Frostfangs. I think it's safe to assume that it was originally used as a defensive position by the First Men. It probably was used primarily before the construction of the wall but was probably maintained for a while through the Age of Heroes. That chronology is important if this is the Horn of Joramun. We assume by the colour of the cloak that it was wrapped in, that the broken horn and dragon glass were placed there by members of the Night's Watch. We also assume that the NW only starts after the wall goes up (they are the watchers on the wall after all). The Horn of Joramun dates from the time of the Night's King, who, to refresh your memory, was a Stark and took an Other for a Queen. Joramun is the legendary King Beyond the Wall who along with the sitting King in the North defeated the Night's King and his Other allies.

We aren't told what happens after the Night's King's defeat other than that they disposed of his body in some way (possibly under Winterfell, nobody's sure). We can assume though that the reconstituted Night's Watch would not have been too happy with the threat posed by Joramun. In other words, the alliance between the Wildlings and the Northmen wouldn't have lasted very long particularly if Joramun had a weapon of seeming mass destruction like the Horn. Given all this, isn't it possible at least that Joramun was defeated while defending the Fist of the First Men?

This would explain why it would be warded against Dire Wolves and Ravens (creatures associated with the Northmen). As Joramun may have done so as a defensive provision. After his defeat, the Night's Watch would have seized the Horn. If the Horn had raised the Giants to fight the Others, they may not have wanted to destroy it. Trying to take it back to the wall may have been too risky with possible Wildling/Other raids. Therefore, leaving it buried on the Fist may have been the best option, particularly if they intended to have a garrison there to watch for Other attacks through the Frostfangs. Wrapping it with dragon glass would provide additional security that even if the garrison fell, the Others wouldn't be able to get the Horn and bring down the wall. Over time, Lord Commanders forgot exactly (the First Men weren't big on writing stuff down) why they had a garrison out on the Fist and abandoned it in some time of struggle or bad winter.

Yes, I'm implying a lot here but there has to be a reason that a "broken" horn is the only thing Sam is left with after selling all of his stuff. If it isn't the Horn of Joramun or some other magical horn, why does GRRM keep bringing it up? We know the Others are attracted to light and heat. Coldhands tells Meera not to build a fire on their way to the CotF. They seem to be able to sense fires at very long distances. We also know Ghost was attracted to the Horn. We have to assume he didn't just think it was Aurochs meat. Perhaps once it was removed from the cloak of the NW (black=camouflage against the light seeking Others?), the Others could sense it as well. If it can take down the wall (or at least the enchantment), it would be worth the risk of revealing their strength to the NW. I subscribe to the idea that the Others are a distinct race of creatures with a certain sophistication and not a mindless horde. I believe the OP was asking about why they haven't attacked in strength since. The Wildling army would have made a pretty nice target if their goal was just to gain more zombies. I tend to think their more tactical. They figured an army attacking the wall, was good news for them. Why interrupt their good work? A bunch of sitting duck NW who don't know to fight the Wights with fire and the Others with Dragonglass who happen to have the Horn of Joramun? That's an opportunity you don't pass up.

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I'm sticking with my broken horn/Horn of Joramun theory. It was late last night when I posted it so I didin't expand. Here's the longer version.

If we assume that the Others come from The Land of Always Winter, a fairly reasonable assumption given Bran's dream about the dead greenseers on spikes there, the Fist looks to be a pretty good vantage point against Others coming through the various mountain passes through the Frostfangs. I think it's safe to assume that it was originally used as a defensive position by the First Men. It probably was used primarily before the construction of the wall but was probably maintained for a while through the Age of Heroes. That chronology is important if this is the Horn of Joramun. We assume by the colour of the cloak that it was wrapped in, that the broken horn and dragon glass were placed there by members of the Night's Watch. We also assume that the NW only starts after the wall goes up (they are the watchers on the wall after all). The Horn of Joramun dates from the time of the Night's King, who, to refresh your memory, was a Stark and took an Other for a Queen. Joramun is the legendary King Beyond the Wall who along with the sitting King in the North defeated the Night's King and his Other allies.

This is interesting, but I'm not certain that we can conclude the Others come from the Land of Always Winter based on Bran's dream about the impaled dreamers. There's nothing that connects Others to this, or rather, it's a leap to assume this is the referent. The dream seems more like a symbol of death, looking it over: the crow is telling him he has to either open his eye or he will die, and Bran looks down to see others who had chosen to fall instead of opening the eye (literally waking up and metaphorically tapping into that power).

But the chronology is a good point. I'm not sure that the settlement on the Fist predates the settlers in the area south of the Wall, however; in fact, I think the Fist ringfort is newer than the barrows that are all over the North. This is from Theon's POV in DwD: "He had to stop to steady them, staring up at the grassy slopes of the Great Barrow. Some claimed it was the grave of the First King, who had led the First Men to Westeros. Others argued that it must be some King of the Giants who was buried there, to account for its size." It sets up this grave as something connected to both Kings and Giants (which calls to mind any combination of Stark and Joramun, I think; at any rate, it puts the most ancient of the Northmen at this location South of the Wall rather than the Fist).

I think what I'm getting at is that the ringfort is quite ancient, but probably not some primeval civilization that predates the rest of the settlements South of the Wall; it seems more like an outpost of sorts rather than an origination point, at least for people. The vow the NW takes is "watchers on the WallS", plural; the Wall is a single item, so between this and Old Nan's story, I think the NW predates the Wall. Though I think I disagree with the way you got there, I do agree with what you're getting at wrt it being a stronghold. I do wonder if the Fist was the original location and "walls" of the NW, assuming it had banded prior to being stationed at the Night Fort.

Also, just a small point: I'm not sure that there are any female Others. The story of the NK calls the woman a "corpse;" I think she was dead, not an Other.

We aren't told what happens after the Night's King's defeat other than that they disposed of his body in some way (possibly under Winterfell, nobody's sure). We can assume though that the reconstituted Night's Watch would not have been too happy with the threat posed by Joramun. In other words, the alliance between the Wildlings and the Northmen wouldn't have lasted very long particularly if Joramun had a weapon of seeming mass destruction like the Horn. Given all this, isn't it possible at least that Joramun was defeated while defending the Fist of the First Men?

I think this is a big leap to make. According to legend, Joramun allegedly "broke his strength on the Wall, or was broken by the strength of Winterfell" in addition to having banded with the Stark to bring down the NK. I'm not entirely sure Joramun was an enemy of the North or the Watch; I kind of think he's buried in one of the Barrows, if not the Great Barrow from the passage I quoted above. I think it's really unlikely Joramun would have been battling Northmen or Watchmen at the Fist from anything we've read; any battle would have probably been staged farther south if the issue is that Joramun was trying to invade. To be thoroughly honest, I'm not sure the horn of winter actually brings down the Wall; the Wall was built by giants and magic, and that horn allegedly wakes giants, so I almost think it's more likely it played a role in the Wall's construction.

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So the NK'S wife wasnt alive?

I think she might have been dead, but reanimated, as she's called his "corpse queen." Here's the passage:

The gathering gloom put Bran in mind of another of Old Nan’s stories, the tale of Night’s King. He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night’s Watch, she said; a warrior who knew no fear. “And that was the fault in him,” she would add, “for all men must know fear.” A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.

He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will. For thirteen years they had ruled, Night’s King and his corpse queen, till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night’s King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden.

The white skin/ blue eyes describes both Others and wights, so honestly, she could be either. I just find the use of "corpse queen" kind of significant.

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I think she might have been dead, but reanimated, as she's called his "corpse queen." Here's the passage:

The gathering gloom put Bran in mind of another of Old Nan’s stories, the tale of Night’s King. He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night’s Watch, she said; a warrior who knew no fear. “And that was the fault in him,” she would add, “for all men must know fear.” A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.

He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will. For thirteen years they had ruled, Night’s King and his corpse queen, till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night’s King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden.

The white skin/ blue eyes describes both Others and wights, so honestly, she could be either. I just find the use of "corpse queen" kind of significant.

Not necessarily. You need to bear in mind that Old Nan describes the Others as "cold dead things", so "corpse queen" is entirely consistent with that. The problem, however, is that in the Tommy Patterson email GRRM very explicitly stated that the Others "are not dead" but a different kind of life. I don't want to intrude a discussion of how we interpret this, but it surely follows that if Old Nan is wrong in describing them as dead, then she is equally wrong in referring to the white lady as a corpse.

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I think what I'm getting at is that the ringfort is quite ancient, but probably not some primeval civilization that predates the rest of the settlements South of the Wall; it seems more like an outpost of sorts rather than an origination poin

My own view is that the fort was a well sited seat of one of the original kingdoms in the north, lost, like that of the Thenns during the Long Night - you know the story as told by Old Nan; kings dead in their castles, armies overwhelmed and the rest of it. Up went the Wall and the Thenns were trapped on the wrong side of it, along with handfuls of survivors of the other kingdoms - whose leaders were either dead or had deserted them - who became the Wildlings.

The significance I think of the Fist is the way its referred to as being the Fist of the First Men and the way it appears to be warded. There's nothing specifically said, but the impression I've always had is that its named that way rather than Old King Coel's Castle or whatever, because some notable disaster occurred there long long ago - perhaps being where the armies of men gathered in a last, desperate and ultimately futile attempt to halt the Otherlanders and their army of the dead.

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Not necessarily. You need to bear in mind that Old Nan describes the Others as "cold dead things", so "corpse queen" is entirely consistent with that. The problem, however, is that in the Tommy Patterson email GRRM very explicitly stated that the Others "are not dead" but a different kind of life. I don't want to intrude a discussion of how we interpret this, but it surely follows that if Old Nan is wrong in describing them as dead, then she is equally wrong in referring to the white lady as a corpse.

I know Nan calls then "cold things, dead things," but "dead" is used in a more figurative, or at least looser sense throughout the books and even in Nan's Others passage (she calls the land "dead" and says "cold and death filled the earth"). "Corpse" is more specific than "dead,"which is why it caught my attention as a potential clue that this woman might not be an Other.

My own view is that the fort was a well sited seat of one of the original kingdoms in the north, lost, like that of the Thenns during the Long Night - you know the story as told by Old Nan; kings dead in their castles, armies overwhelmed and the rest of it. Up went the Wall and the Thenns were trapped on the wrong side of it, along with handfuls of survivors of the other kingdoms - whose leaders were either dead or had deserted them - who became the Wildlings.

The significance I think of the Fist is the way its referred to as being the Fist of the First Men and the way it appears to be warded. There's nothing specifically said, but the impression I've always had is that its named that way rather than Old King Coel's Castle or whatever, because some notable disaster occurred there long long ago - perhaps being where the armies of men gathered in a last, desperate and ultimately futile attempt to halt the Otherlanders and their army of the dead.

This is what I was trying to get at-- that the Fist ringfort was yet another kingdom inhabited during the Dawn Age, and was contemporaneous to other ancient places we've seen that are south of the Wall.

What I find the most interesting about ringforts is that the low wall is engineered to keep livestock from wandering away (so it's a container, really). I could see this easily translating into a pen for some sort of a mass human sacrifice by a king who became too "ambitious" wrt what disaster befell it. It's the combination of ringforts being both a seat of power and container that makes me think of mass blood sacrifice to tap into magic may have occurred.

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A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.

She sounds well quaffed. Like her hair is combed, her countenance is eerily peaceful (not scowling), and there's none of the usual smudges on her face you'd expect to see from your average zombie. (Zombies tend to look like the "before" pictures in makeover ads, and this chicka sounds like she's a dazzler, like she's an "after" pic. This makes it somewhat less likely she's a run of the mill wight.)

I'm just saying, if I look over the edge of my wall and I see a woman who's both dead and unkempt, I don't go chasing after that. Butt, and this is a big but----if she's got an otherworldly quality that's hauntingly beautiful and it just so happens that she possesses this quality on account of being less than fully alive (a totally dead total knockout), ........then that might be a different story.

I'm not saying I'd follow her into the woods, because that's just straight up stalking. But hey, if she was regularly making the rounds and stopping by to gaze up at my glistening chest (because I would always try to be shirtless when she showed up), then that sounds a lot more like an eharmony connection. What am I supposed to do, hold it against her that she's technically dead when she's clearly ambulatory and seems to have a lot going for her? Sure, it might be awkward to have her meet the family for the first time, but she'd probably charm them the same way she charmed me. In the end, we just have to let go of our prejudices and embrace hope, love, and courage. Chow.

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She sounds well quaffed. Like her hair is combed, her countenance is eerily peaceful (not scowling), and there's none of the usual smudges on her face you'd expect to see from your average zombie. (Zombies tend to look like the "before" pictures in makeover ads, and this chicka sounds like she's a dazzler, like she's an "after" pic. This makes it somewhat less likely she's a run of the mill wight.)

I'm just saying, if I look over the edge of my wall and I see a woman who's both dead and unkempt, I don't go chasing after that. Butt, and this is a big but----if she's got an otherworldly quality that's hauntingly beautiful and it just so happens that she possesses this quality on account of being less than fully alive (a totally dead total knockout), ........then that might be a different story.

I'm not saying I'd follow her into the woods, because that's just straight up stalking. But hey, if she was regularly making the rounds and stopping by to gaze up at my glistening chest (because I would always try to be shirtless when she showed up), then that sounds a lot more like an eharmony connection. What am I supposed to do, hold it against her that she's technically dead when she's clearly ambulatory and seems to have a lot going for her? Sure, it might be awkward to have her meet the family for the first time, but she'd probably charm them the same way she charmed me. In the end, we just have to let go of our prejudices and embrace hope, love, and courage. Chow.

If I didn't already love you for your get-rich-quick flavored butter scam, this really seals the deal.

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I'm drawn to Fist= Ancient City, in part because "ringforts" are architecturally speaking "urban" territories, as well as the fact that it would be yet another significant civilization laid to waste by some potentially magical cause (we also have Hardhome and Valyria). I know this is crackpot, but my favorite theory is this: The Fist was the major First Men city, but some got their hands on ice magic, abused it, and caused the rise of Others, wiping out the humans (technically, I think the Others are men who have been corrupted by magic). Then, the Fist became a stronghold of the Others, sort of like their base of operations. I'm not suggesting they live there exactly, but I kind of think this might be a nexus for them, that somehow the old powers are weaker there or something like that.

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I agree about the 'magical cause'. On my second read-through, it struck me that the Fist must be an ancient upcropping which retains some mystical or spiritual power not perceived by ordinary men. This kind of thing would be so old it pre-figures the settlements on that site.

But the Others and Ghost obviously do perceive something, something that attracts the Others but frightens Ghost. Maybe it's like magnetism must be at the North Magnetic Pole. Or maybe it's a nexus of ley lines. Maybe the Fist emits a certain sound audible only to Other and dog ears.

The answer might turn out to be much more prosaic. Maybe the can smell the Black Crows. But I doubt the Others are strategizing. Whatever drew hordes of Others there ... Wham!

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